Olympic ceremonies lack French

[CANADIEN]

Quebec should have been fully conquered and assimulated

There would have been one less topic for you to make a fool of yourself.

Edited February 20, 2010 by CANADIEN

[CANADIEN]

As a rule, the amount of bitching is directly related to how well off people are. Those who are not, don't have the time to bitch about things that have no real effect on their lives because they are too busy trying to survive.

Are we talking about the opening ceremony only, or the issue of language policies in general? Because I can tell you that feeling unwelcome in one's own country affects one's live. If you think otherwise, go ask Fransaskois who grew up in the days when their language could not be spoken in schools, of members of First nations, or even better, Quebec Anglophones.

[Wilber]

Are we talking about the opening ceremony only, or the issue of language policies in general? Because I can tell you that feeling unwelcome in one's own country affects one's live. If you think otherwise, go ask Fransaskois who grew up in the days when their language could not be spoken in schools, of members of First nations, or even better, Quebec Anglophones.

I would ask you the same question. I don't dispute that there were injustices in the past. Should the amount of English used in every event held in Quebec that has been granted federal money be monitored? How far do we take this nonsense? When do we grow up and stop this bullshit?

Edited February 20, 2010 by Wilber

[Machjo]

What were our founders thinking when they had the dream of a nation that stretched sea to sea?

It was the white man's burden, remember. The conquerers were there to educate the 'savages' and spread their divine civilization.

Did anyone ever imagine that having a nation with some other nation stuck dead centre would not be a problem

No. At that time, empire-building was the goal. Nothing else mattered.

Quebec should have been fully conquered and assimulated.

Or how about not conquered at all? Hmmm... Sounds like you haven't outgrown that era yet, have you. Why should they have been conquered in your opinion? Was assimilation the objective of conquest in your mind? Or is it that you perceive even a neighbouring country that doesn't speak the Queen's English to be a threat to Britannia? Or was it just that the Loyalists needed some lebensraum?Too bad Britannia was busy fighting the traitors to the South, otherwise it could have redirected its efforts at a more efficient cultural or literal genocide of the pesky savages and the French, eh.

It was a mistake to appease the vanquished..Yes you are probably right about other languages being almost as universal as English - but French is fast fading as one of the buisness languages..unless you are buying arms or wine.

You seriously haven't left your cubicle yet, have you. If an Algerian should do business with France, he's highly unlikely to do so in English. The same applies with a Brazilian doing business with Peru, or a Persian with an Arab, etc. English really is limited to tourist traps, aeronautical and maritime communications, and extremely wealthy multinational corporations. I have lived abroad, and on occasion, even in groups of people with various mother tongues, usually the local language prevails. I remember having no choice but to communicate with a Korean in Chinese since even though she'd studied English in Korea for many years, she'd never really mastered it, but since living in China, she'd picked up Chinese. Just check the world statistics for English. Though English is given a privileged status in many international organizations, it's often restricted to professional translators and interpretors, since even in those organizations, many don't know English. English as the international language is pure myth. Accepted worldwide no doubt. In central Quebec, they seem to believe they're the only ones in the world who don't know English and so had better get on with learning it. In China, they seem to believe the same thing. It's just a commonly held worldwide myth believed among those less traveled.

Sorry to burst Britannia's bubble.

[Machjo]

Actually, I have a few other interesting anecdotes from real life.

On one occasion, I was at a public meeting discussing interlinguistic and intercultural relations of all things. The interpretor had just graduated from university with a master's in English-Chinese interpretation. At the meeting, we had myself with a Canadian accent, a Cameroonian, an Australian, and a Pakistani. The interpretor could understand me just fine, but once the others started speaking, all fell apart. I started repeating what the others were saying since she could understand my accent. After a few minutes, she'd started to tune into the Australian's accent. After about an hour, she started to understand the Cameroonian accent, but with much difficulty. And she never quite got a hang of the Pakistani accent. Needless to say, the meeting got a few giggles.

After the meeting, her boss, who happened to be my friend, was thinking fo firing her. Lucky for her, I'd met others of her kind before and so was well aware that there'd be no point in replacing her since everyone at that university only listed to recordings of American and British accents, and that was it. I'd suggested he give her three months to improve. Afterwards, unlike others who always gravitate to North Americans and Britons to practice their English, she started making friends with anyone. After three months, he ability to understand these different accents improved considerably. But this just goes to show how even trained interpretors can find it difficult. And in my opinion, the accents of the participants were quite mild.

On another occasion, I was in a restaurant with an English teacher of all people. Next to us sat a lone Pakistani. He and I started a conversation, but the teacher never participated. Once we were finished eating and left the restaurant, the teacher asked me if we were speaking English. I answered that we were, and surprised at the question inquired why she'd asked. She answered that she thought he was speaking English because I was speaking to him in English, but she could not understand a word of his. I was surprised, since in my opinion, his accent was quite light.

[Machjo]

I should also point out that while I oppose official bilingualism at least in its current form, it's mainly out of concerns for administrative efficiency. On that front, I actually agree with the idea of Quebec having French as its sole official language, though I also agree that Bill 101 goes way, way too far.

However, I could see other provinces following Quebec's example in establishing one official language, though certainly not like Bill 101 obviously. Such a policy would save them money, just as it saves the Quebec government money in necessary translation costs, bilingual language training for public service employees, etc. I could also see the federal government decentralizing more to the provinces.

I must say though that when bigots step in to oppose French per se on ethnic grounds, it embarrasses me to find myself in favour of policies similar to what these same bigots support. I should point out that though some of the policies I support might be similar to some of the policies these bigots support, the motives behind the support are totally different. I also support such policies as applied equally on all sides of the language barrier, and not so one-sidedly. I guess that's where our ideas differ most drastically.

I should point out too that these bigots also shoot themselves in the foot because some people who might agree with some of their policies in principle but for radically different reasons, might end up distancing themselves from those ideas out of fear of being associated with such bigots.

[CANADIEN]

I would ask you the same question. I don't dispute that there were injustices in the past. Should the amount of English used in every event held in Quebec that has been granted federal money be monitored? How far do we take this nonsense? When do we grow up and stop this bullshit?

The day crybabies stop whining whenever they notice that some French-speaking CANADIANS will not settle for second place status.

BTW, if the Games had been given to let's Quebec City, the screaming from all the prejudiced losers would have started five minutes after the IOC had made its choice.

[Machjo]

The day crybabies stop whining whenever they notice that some French-speaking CANADIANS will not settle for second place status.

BTW, if the Games had been given to let's Quebec City, the screaming from all the prejudiced losers would have started five minutes after the IOC had made its choice.

True enough.

[Machjo]

Now I'm veering a little off topic, but I can't help myself here. I've found that among non-English speakers, monolinguals have a certain desire to learn a second language. Most fail, granted, but at least they make a reasonable effort. Among native English-speaking monolinguals, it seems they view monolingualism as a norm to strive for.

Considering all the options available, there really isn't an excuse to be monolingual. If French is too hard, try Dutch, or an even easier language. I don't know if sign languages are easier or not, but they might be something to look into too. I'd met a Quebecer in La Malbaie of all places (it's a small town with a population of about 20,000 if that) who'd learn Spanish on her own. She thought English to be too difficult to learn considering she had no environment to practice it, but she still saw a value in learning a second language even if only for the cultural benefits it could bring as well as opening the mind. English was too difficult for her, so she went for Spanish. I'd met a few Chinese who'd learnt Esperanto because they'd heard it was an easier language to learn too.

If French is too difficult for a monolingual English-speaker, he could try Dutch, German, Esperanto, or maybe a sign language if it's easier. But just to learn a second language so as to open their minds. Yet they won't even make the effort in spite of all the options before them.

[Wilber]

The day crybabies stop whining whenever they notice that some French-speaking CANADIANS will not settle for second place status.

BTW, if the Games had been given to let's Quebec City, the screaming from all the prejudiced losers would have started five minutes after the IOC had made its choice.

I can't help it if you insist on seeing yourself as second place. I wouldn't worry about a Quebec games because unless the IOC will approve a bid that has no opening or closing ceremonies we will never see another Olympics. All vested interests will never be able to come to an accommodation which will make them all happy. Kind of like reforming the Constitution.

Canadians live in one of the freest and most blessed countries in the world but that isn't good enough for them. For some reason they insist on seeing themselves as hard done by and victims.

[Machjo]

I can't help it if you insist on seeing yourself as second place. I wouldn't worry about a Quebec games because unless the IOC will approve a bid that has no opening or closing ceremonies we will never see another Olympics. All vested interests will never be able to come to an accommodation which will make them all happy. Kind of like reforming the Constitution.

Canadians live in one of the freest and most blessed countries in the world but that isn't good enough for them. For some reason they insist on seeing themselves as hard done by and victims.

Ah, gotta love stereotypes.

[Wilber]

Ah, gotta love stereotypes.

You're right, not all Canadians are like that, just many of the noisier ones.

[kimmy]

54,745 people in B.C. reported French as their mother tongue in the 2006 Census: http://www40.statcan.gc.ca/l01/cst01/demo11c-eng.htm

24,130 of them are in Vancouver: http://www40.statcan.gc.ca/l01/cst01/demo12g-eng.htm

Wow, so nearly 1.25% of British Columbians report French as their mother tongue? Including nearly 1% of Vancouverites? Holy! I bet that almost puts French in the top 10 languages in BC!

kimmy, I typically love your posts, but you come off as a stereotypical Western Canadian here.

Of course.

I'm not necessarily saying that's a bad thing. Perhaps Canada really is too large and this ocean to ocean project will end up as a massive failure. Regional politics may kill this country, but perhaps its for the best. Maybe each region needs to have its own autonomy. Maybe the sheer size of Canada is an anachronism to the imperial era and needs to be re-arranged. Nevertheless, we're a single "nation" and to deny the notions of les deux solitudes is to intentionally ignore how this country came to be.

Sure, it's part of Canada's history. There are lots of other aspects of Canada's history that have no relevance to my life either.

French voyageurs might have been among the Northwest Company traders who were among the first Europeans to see the lands where my parents families eventually settled. The natives were there long before, and unlike the French voyageurs, they're still there. So are the Scandinavians and Slavs who arrived later and put plow to soil. The canoe guys are long gone. They vanished centuries ago and left little trace this far west.

I accept the history. I just see no reason why I should spend any time venerating something that has so little importance to me. "The French Fact" in Canada is "the French Myth" in Western Canada. It's reputed to exist, people have heard of it, but nobody has actually seen it. It's like Ogopogo.

As I'm currently living in BC, I actually kind of feel that the Chinese workers who came here achieved more of lasting significance here than the canoe guys.

-k

[kimmy]

Seeing that the Olympics are under the responsibility of the IOC and not the Canadian Federal government, I don't think it's appropriate for the Canadian Federal Government to be criticizing this so publicly. If there's an issue, bring it up with the IOC in private, and if there really is an issue, I'm sure the IOC will make the appropriate modifications come next Olympics. But as the article says, the IOC seemed to be satisfied, so what's the issue?

This has nothing to do with the IOC and everything to do with Canadian politics.

This is some official in the Harper government eager to show Quebec voters that the Conservatives will stand up for French Canadians.

"Le Stephane 'arper, 'e is not such bad guy at all, eh?"

-k

[Machjo]

This has nothing to do with the IOC and everything to do with Canadian politics.

This is some official in the Harper government eager to show Quebec voters that the Conservatives will stand up for French Canadians.

"Le Stephane 'arper, 'e is not such bad guy at all, eh?"

-k

Ah, more stereotypes. I'm a native French speaker and I don't sound like that at all. In fact, if you heard me speaking in English, though my accent is not totally English Canadian (my dad is British so I'd picked up a little bit of his accent), it certainly does not sound like your usual stereotyping. Mind you, those Quebecers who do speak like that would certainly benefit from French so that they could actually understand what was going on at the games.

[CANADIEN]

I can't help it if you insist on seeing yourself as second place.

I don't see mysellf as a second place Canadian for one second. There are plenty of people who would love for French-speaking CANADIANS to feel that way and just shut their mouths... in English.

[Wilber]

I don't see mysellf as a second place Canadian for one second. There are plenty of people who would love for French-speaking CANADIANS to feel that way and just shut their mouths... in English.

You know, if there were to be a games held in Quebec, I would expect it to be largely French content. It's being held in Quebec for crying out loud. Sure there would be Anglo whiners, there are no shortage of whiners when it comes to anything in this country but does that make them right?

[CANADIEN]

You know, if there were to be a games held in Quebec, I would expect it to be largely French content. It's being held in Quebec for crying out loud. Sure there would be Anglo whiners, there are no shortage of whiners when it comes to anything in this country but does that make them right?

And I would expect an appropriate level of presence of the English language and recognition of English-language cultures of this country. And I would expect that those who think there is not enough English say it.

[Wilber]

And I would expect an appropriate level of presence of the English language and recognition of English-language cultures of this country. And I would expect that those who think there is not enough English say it.

So the whine would go on ad nauseum. I'm just getting sick of it from both sides. It never ends.

[fellowtraveller]

Why, exactly? What you or I may consider trivial may not be to someone else in Canada. This country was built on compromise and cooperation, and for the most part, that spirit continues to this day. If there is a belief by some members of the federation that there was not enough French in the opening ceremonies of the Olympics, then that should and will be explored. It doesn't take away from the Olympics, it doesn't take away from the ceremonies....it simply states a belief.

Because - to speak frankly- none of this shit matters to most Canadians, and none of this shit should matter to any Canadians.

Either we work towards the common good of all of us, or we fail as a nation. Choose one.

Arguing abpout languiage and culture doesn't earn us a dime, and it costs us a lot, and not just in money. Most discussions at least result in something positive, but not this one.

We need to all move on , and focus on what makes it all happen in Canada: the economy. Not the Vancouver or Quebec or alienated West or longsuffering Maritime economy- the Canadian economy.

This discussion does not advance us one iota, it moves us backward.

At least three of the msot prosperous nations in the world flourish because they work together: Japan, Germany and lately China. We don't, and this is a prime reason why.

[Smallc]

Because - to speak frankly- none of this shit matters to most Canadians, and none of this shit should matter to any Canadians.

And that doesn't mean it isn't relevant.

Either we work towards the common good of all of us, or we fail as a nation. Choose one.

That's a false dichotomy. This nation has NEVER been a completely united on various issues. Small squabbles like this don't signal the failure of a nation.

Arguing abpout languiage and culture doesn't earn us a dime, and it costs us a lot, and not just in money.

Most discussions at least result in something positive, but not this one.

We need to all move on , and focus on what makes it all happen in Canada: the economy. Not the Vancouver or Quebec or alienated West or longsuffering Maritime economy- the Canadian economy.

We can move the economy forward and discuss language at the same time. We always have and we probably always will.

At least three of the msot prosperous nations in the world flourish because they work together: Japan, Germany and lately China. We don't, and this is a prime reason why.

Ummm......we have larger per capita GDPs than any of those countries by some measures, and about equal to that of Germany and Japan by most measures....and you might want to check up on Germany and China. They aren't exactly examples of harmonious unity.

Canada is one of the largest economies in the world with one of the highest qualities of life. It is one of he most peaceful and democratic countries on the planet. Canada continues to grow in population and wealth and lately, unity and patriotism, and that isn't expected to waver given the approach of the 150th anniversary of Confederation. Canada is more than just an economy...but we aren't bad at that aspect either.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Smallc

[CANADIEN]

So the whine would go on ad nauseum. I'm just getting sick of it from both sides. It never ends.

I for one am going tired fo the whining by those who think French-speaking Canadians outside Quebec or English-speaking Canadians in Quebec should just shut up and put up.

[CANADIEN]

Because - to speak frankly- none of this shit matters to most Canadians, and none of this shit should matter to any Canadians.

Does that include Quebec language laws? gota ask, because that type of shit (which is what I think of most of those laws) do matter to many Canadian.

Either we work towards the common good of all of us, or we fail as a nation. Choose one.

The common good is served when the rights of all are respected, not when some are treated as second class citizens.. Choose one.

We need to all move on

Good idea, i suggest you start by acknwledging the linguistic rights of Canadians.

At least three of the msot prosperous nations in the world flourish because they work together: Japan, Germany and lately China. We don't, and this is a prime reason why.

Good for you to admire the way China "works together". Feel free to think that dictatorship, violation of human rights, labour camps and censorship are good if they bring money in. I don't.

Edited February 21, 2010 by CANADIEN

[Machjo]

You know, if there were to be a games held in Quebec, I would expect it to be largely French content. It's being held in Quebec for crying out loud. Sure there would be Anglo whiners, there are no shortage of whiners when it comes to anything in this country but does that make them right?

Now that's a consistent position, and I respect that. I too agree that if the games had been held in Quebec city, providing English interpretation would have been a waste of money. Most attendees would likely come from French-speaking countries anyway, and any TV coverage would likely be either dubbed if it's live, or maybe subtitled otherwise.

Likewise, as far as the Vancouver Olympics are concerned, if it weren't for French being one of the IOC's official languages, I could certainly agree with English-only Olympics in Vancouver.

[Wilber]

I for one am going tired fo the whining by those who think French-speaking Canadians outside Quebec or English-speaking Canadians in Quebec should just shut up and put up.

Which of course would include anyone who disagrees with you. But what the hell, being politically correct Canadians we will do everything 50/50 thereby assuring that no matter which end of the country we are in, 80% of the people in the stands won't understand 50% of the program.