CANADIEN Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 Racism is such an elastic term that it has ceased to have meaning. Basically it's just a pejorative term the politically correct like to fling around. Correction, it is an apt iscription for a statement such as yours. There are miserable prisons all over the world where people are tortured - I mean really tortured, not that girlyman sleep deprivation the Americans sometimes use. I'm talking hot irons and pokers and electric shocks and skin peeling here. And none of those on the Left give a damn about any of it. Instead, like frenzied, rapid dogs, they are fixated on the slightest sign that "the enemy" ie, the Americans, or anyone associated with them, might have in any way, shape or form, slightly mistreated an Islamist, or perhaps was rude to him, or violated some technical aspect of law. Gitmo is the most famous prison in the world, despite the fact that if you placed it alongside all the political prisons scattered through the third world it would turn out to be the mildest, cleanest, nicest prison of them all, and the one which treated prisoners with the most respect. This is the hypocrisy of the Left. It constantly pretends it cares about human and civil rights but absolutely couldn't care less - except where the Great Satan is concerned. America is the great evil to every Leftist wack job in the Western world, and none of you miss a chance to condemn it or anyone associated with it while shrugging off the most horrific human rights abuses from its enemies. This is so laughable that it is berely worthy of a comment. Yet, I'll offer one. I won't talk for others, but I have no tolerance or respect for torture, or for those who try to excuse or minimize it. No matter where it occurs, no matter who commits those act. On the other hand, there is little doubt in my mind that you do not care a bit about most people unjustly detained and tortured around the world, so do yourself a favour and look in the mirror before using the word hypocrite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriel Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 (edited) For those who are interested, here's the released video of Omar Khadr's interview (it can hardly be described as an interrogation, in my view). He definitely does NOT look sleep deprived to me, and he's being coddled as far as I can see. He seems to grasp the severity of his crimes and as far as I can tell, is crying our of fear of the consequences of his actions. Edited January 31, 2010 by Gabriel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 You are absolutely dead wrong on that. In Canada, the legal term "Sexual Assault" can mean everything from a pat on the bottom to a nine hour session of multiple rape. People use the term "torture" in the same way, a catchall for every conceivable form of extra-legal physical mistreatment. I think this is confusing to the weak-minded and I prefer to keep the "real" notion of torture separate from the legalistic one adopted by the Left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 You have absolutely no evidence of that. Only an open trial will decide that matter. I assume that you'd want to see a trial....sooner rather than later... There is a ton of evidence of that. His lawyers aren't even questioning it. All they claim is that he wasn't the one who threw the grenade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 The difference is only slight when we know that collateral deaths will be inevitable. Someone has to measure the value of human life vs. the potential benefit of attacking to protect our "security". Be honest. You don't give a damn about human life. If this fight were between Libya and Sudan you'd have not the slightest interest. And no matter how bloody, vicious or brutal it became you'd still have no interest. There'd be no one to condemn because both sides are Anti-American! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 (edited) As one Canadians rights go, so go any. I don't consider Khadr to be Canadian, or to have ever been Canadian. I don't think I'm alone in that. Edited January 31, 2010 by Argus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CANADIEN Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 ame='CANADIEN' date='31 January 2010 - 04:44 PM' timestamp='1264972609' post='505062'] ... of nothing, really. What counts is eveidence that HE committed criminal act. CANADIEN, I can't really see myself replying to too many more of your posts. The absurdity continues. You can stop the absurdity anytime. By ceasing being absurd. Are you really comparing the treatment of Khadr at Club Gitmo to what McCain endured? Or what Maher Arar endured? Why are you so consistently ridiculous? I also haven't seen any information to support your earlier claim that Omar Khadr was undergoing sleep deprivation for a month. Even if your claim is true (again, your word can't be taken at face value as far as I'm concerned), it would depend on what degree of sleep deprivation he endured if we are to decide on whether or not it qualified as torture. Torture is torture. Are you absurd enough to imply that a coerced confession should have legal value. Oh, BTW, I stand corrected. According to documents from CSIS and quoted by the Supreme Court, Khadr was subjected to three weeks of sleep deprivation. Bid difference LOL Most ridiculous is your rejection of the importance of analyzing Khadr's family history, as if it has no bearing at all on this story and this case. It is wholly relevant to this case. I'm speechless. How am I supposed to respond to such a crazy suggestion? Did I say it was not relevant? Nope. It is relevant Still, it does not in and by itself amount of evidence of any crime on the part of Khadr Jr. If that was all that the US prosecutor had, they would be laughed out of court. What makes me spechless is that you show so little understanding of the functioning of a court of law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CANADIEN Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 For those who are interested, here's the released video of Omar Khadr's interview (it can hardly be described as an interrogation, in my view). He definitely does NOT look sleep deprived to me, and he's being coddled as far as I can see. He seems to grasp the severity of his crimes and as far as I can tell, is crying our of fear of the consequences of his actions. Nice try. It is very well documented that there was one than one interrogation. The first was preceded by sleep deprivation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 Oh, perhaps the pejorative does get overused. I'm not sure. However, when you refer to people as "ragheads," that is a racist comment...and is meant to be one. No, it's a pejorative and somewhat contemptuous term but it speaks to culture, not race. What "race" am I putting down, and in what way? Right....how do I keep forgetitng that the hardcore Right thinks nationalism is a moral quality, pointing out the crimes of enemies takes tremendous courage, and that pointing out the crimes of us and our allies is insane. And why does the hard core Left make a fetish of self-loathing and self-hatred, of attacking everything our culture stands for while glorying in everything hostile to it. Fat, smug and safe, never challenged, never in danger, none of you have the imagination to even consider where you'd be without the institutions and principals you denigrate. It's ridiculous. Elementary morality, as well as basic democratic principles, tells us that we should be MORE concerned about what WE do wrong than what enemies do wrong. That's obvious enough. But without any sense of proportion, without any context, your joyous bouts of heaping scorn and contempt on us while enthusiastically explaining away the barbarism and savagery of our enemies show no real concern with anything but your own rigid ideological hatreds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CANADIEN Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 People use the term "torture" in the same way, a catchall for every conceivable form of extra-legal physical mistreatment. I think this is confusing to the weak-minded and I prefer to keep the "real" notion of torture separate from the legalistic one adopted by the Left. The only weak-minded are those who argue that some form or torture are not really torture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 On the other hand, there is little doubt in my mind that you do not care a bit about most people unjustly detained and tortured around the world, so do yourself a favour and look in the mirror before using the word hypocrite. Actually, it outrages me. And I know more about it, and so put the Americans' little mistreatments into context. I've criticized the brutality of countries from India to Sudan to Iran to Mexico to Japan to North Korea, but for some, the only human rights abuses which ever exist are those committed by the Americans or the Israelis. Which tells me they don't really care a damn about human rights abuses. They just like wacking at the Jews and the evil yankees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bandelot Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 (edited) Still, he said the law should be reviewed in consultation with scholars and religious leaders. "I ordered the justice minister to review the law, and if there is anything that would contravene the country's constitution or Shariah law or the freedom our constitution gives to Afghan women, without any doubt there will be changes in it, and again it will be sent to the parliament of Afghanistan," he said. http://www.asharq-e.com/news.asp?section=1&id=16285 The Afghan population is faced with two prospective outcomes. One is the continued presence of a fighting force on their soil which has made mistakes resulting in civilian casualties. But that presence in itself provides a check on Karzai. I don't believe it really does. I heard about the shiny new rape law, even posted about it. The controversy was a while ago, back in April 2009. Did you hear much more about it, after Karzai said he would 'review' the law, in order to appease Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton? Not much was discussed about what happened next. Afghanistan's contentious family law quietly enacted August 17, 2009- Women's rights activists alleged Monday that Afghan President Hamid Karzai has used a constitutional loophole to enact a law that allows minority Shia Muslim husbands to refuse food and money to their wives if they deny them sex. Female parliamentarians said they thought they would get the chance to fight for revisions, only to discover in recent days that Karzai had taken advantage of a legislative recess to approve the law by decree. Parliament has the right to examine and change the law when they reconvene but the law stays in effect in the meantime. The legislation was passed by presidential decree in mid-July and published in Afghanistan's official gazette on July 27, which brings the law into force, according to Human Rights Watch. Lawmakers confirmed the process. Presidential spokesmen could not be reached for comment. Also check out http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2009/08/13/afghanistan-law-curbing-women-s-rights-takes-effect which gives some details on the actual contents of the law. Karzai used women as pawns in his political manouvers. Thats a bit beyond anything that Harper or Obama would do. Well, Obama anyway. But isn't it odd that Obama and Clinton, and other western leaders have nothing to say about that? I guess it's just not our business. -ANYONE who thinks that this is about removing safe haven for terrorists, I ask how that could be done, when the very same mentality and values, disdain for western equality sits in the government of Afghanistan itself. These are the people our troops are fighting for, to keep them in power. Because it seems to me that there is no Taliban as a distinct cultural/ ideological movement, separate from the people of Afghanistan. Edited January 31, 2010 by Sir Bandelot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CANADIEN Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 I don't consider Khadr to be Canadian, or to have ever been Canadian. I don't think I'm alone in that. Unfortunately, as much as I don't like it, the law says otherwise. And that's the one thing that counts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CANADIEN Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 (edited) So what? It's a war. What do you expect? It was a fight between Americans and terrorists, of course there will be differing recollections of the details of the event when everyone's stress levels were extreme. This is basic psychology. To me it seems that the grenade charge is a token charge. Since those of us who are honest know he must be guilty of a laundry list of crimes, the only way to get justice is to charge him for his involvement in the battle at which he was captured - as there will be some evidence to support this. Honesty demands that he b sentenced for the crimes, and only for the crimes, the accused can be found guilty of beyond any reasonble doubt. Unfortunately, the rights that are there to protect us also protect our enemies. That's one of the costs of living in a free society, that evil people also have access to these rights. Correction: furtunately, there are laws that prevent arbitrary detention and protect the assumption of innocence, as they protect all of us. That's not a cost, but a main benefit of living in our society. Edited January 31, 2010 by CANADIEN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dizzy Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 I don't consider Khadr to be Canadian, or to have ever been Canadian. I don't think I'm alone in that. He may not be worthy of our affection, but he was born here and he retains canadian citizenship. Who can claim he's not canadian? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CANADIEN Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 Actually, it outrages me. And I know more about it, and so put the Americans' little mistreatments into context. Torture, no matter the degree, is not mere mistreatment. Want to prove otherwise, how about you go for a three week vacation at Gitmo, complete with being deprived of sleep the whole time? I've criticized the brutality of countries from India to Sudan to Iran to Mexico to Japan to North Korea, ... when it serves your own "let's keep non-whites out" agenda. And you have trivialized human rights abuse committed in Gitmo, Bagram, or Abu Ghraib. Forgive me if I take your outrage with a grain of salt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dizzy Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 Where are you getting your information from? Since when was there contradictory eyewitness testimony? Allow me to ask a broader question: do you actually believe there is a possibility that Omar Khadr ISN'T guilt of providing material support to our terrorist enemies in assisting them to harm and kill American soldiers? He's facing several charges, one of which is murder - throwing a grenade that killed an American medic. From my perspective, the list of crimes he's committed will never really be known. The five charges he is facing are only crimes that there is evidence to support. Imagine how many other crimes he committed while working with the enemy. Please answer the question - do you actually think there is a shred of possibility that Omar Khadr is innocent of the crimes he is being charged with? The matter of contradictory evidence is easy to find if you google. There are inconsistencies throughout the narrative of that night. The most notable matter is that he was not alone at the time of the grenade throw, despite earlier claims, making it quite possible that he wasn't responsible. http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/02/25/khadr-opposition.html But what if he did? Had he been killed by soldiers or air personnel during the battle, would we have charged those responsible with murder? This was a theater of war. I don't have any affection for this family, but we are talking about a child soldier and international agreements respecting this should be respected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Born Free Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 In Canada, the legal term "Sexual Assault" can mean everything from a pat on the bottom to a nine hour session of multiple rape. People use the term "torture" in the same way, a catchall for every conceivable form of extra-legal physical mistreatment. I think this is confusing to the weak-minded and I prefer to keep the "real" notion of torture separate from the legalistic one adopted by the Left. Perhaps if we were discussing sexual assault you might be correct. But we arent doing that. Sleep deprivation is torture. Of that, there is no doubt. I'm positive that if your teenage son was ever grabbed up by the RCMP and kept incognito for endless periods of time and deprived of sleep in order to get him to admit to something... I'm pretty damn sure you'd be yelling at the top of your lungs.... TORTURE!!!! That's illegal damn it!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Born Free Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 I've criticized the brutality of countries from India to Sudan to Iran to Mexico to Japan to North Korea,.... Which tells me they don't really care a damn about human rights abuses. They just like wacking at the Jews and the evil yankees. Maybe its time you criticized the Americans too when they get caught doing that shit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Born Free Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 There is a ton of evidence of that. His lawyers aren't even questioning it. All they claim is that he wasn't the one who threw the grenade. Neither you or anyone else in this forum has ever seen the evidence. Its all anecdotal. If you continue to claim to know exactly what all the evidence is, you must have been receiving it via your toaster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Born Free Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 Since when is evidence made public before a trial, anyways? Have you even considered that perhaps there are national security matters involved in this case? It's also untrue that evidence hasn't been made public, you're free to do a Google search and learn about some of the public knowledge about the case - that he comes from a family of terrorists (that's quite a big piece of evidence!), he was captured fighting alongside the terrorists in Afghanistan (he wasn't there on a boyscout trip), he has confessed to being a terrorist, etc, etc. He wasn't just arbitrarily picked up, charged, and detained for years just for the hell of it. How about answering a simple question. Its not about whether you believe or disbelieve the said evidence. The question is...do you believe that Khadr should or should not be given a trial? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Born Free Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 Time will tell, let's just hope that justice is served and that he receives a harsh punishment. It's too bad he won't be executed. The hanging judge has spoken. Lets give the SOB a trial and THEN hang the bastard!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorpio Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 (edited) Here ya go...with the usual reference to American policies: Canadians with disabilities have the Charter of Rights and Freedoms but the Charter does not enforce their rights and they remain largely shut out of Canadian society. The disabled face discrimination in employment, schools, social and eating places. By comparison Americans have effective protection with the Americans with Disabilities Act. They also enforcement bodies like Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) and Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD). http://www.njnnetwork.com/?p=13574 There are more than three million Canadians with disabilities and more than 2.3 million families in Canada who provide day-to-day support for a family member with a disability. Despite progress in the last two decades, Canadians with disabilities and their families still face significant barriers. It is clear that the experience of exclusion, poverty and isolation for people with disabilities continues. This is unacceptable in a country as prosperous as Canada. http://www.ccdonline.ca/en/socialpolicy/actionplan/accessible-canada So once again, there are high falutin' Charter rights with no remedy or enforcement. Salute! Before you pick on Canada, best look on your own streets."Until every citizen in America experiences true equality in America; until every citizen has equal access to public buildings - America still experiences the very slavery it speaks so proudly about having abolished." link Granted we have yet to implement full blown legislation, but it's coming. In terms of numbers tho, the sheer volume of your homeless suffering from disability dwarfs anything we might have in Canada. How are you helping them? Edited January 31, 2010 by scorpio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 The hanging judge has spoken. Lets give the SOB a trial and THEN hang the bastard!!! Nah...just set him free in Afganerstan with an RFID chip in his ass...for Predator target practice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 Before you pick on Canada, best look on your own streets."Until every citizen in America experiences true equality in America; until every citizen has equal access to public buildings - America still experiences the very slavery it speaks so proudly about having abolished." link Agreed...thank you for confirming that Charter Rights for the disabled are a hollow promise, lacking investment and enforcement except for American big block retail stores. PS: All of "my streets" and businesses are disabled accessible....it's the law. How 'bout you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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