PETA pies Fisheries Minister

[msdogfood]

The minister of fisheries, Gail Shea got what only Chretien had experience, a pie in the face. It was also a healthy pie made of tofu and maybe she she had put in some fish. I thought maybe Harper himself would have gotten one, but hey there still time if you want to go to jail afterwards. http://www.thespec.com/News/BreakingNews/article/711385

i love it!

[KeyStone]

"It doesn't pay in the meat industry to be cruel to animals either."

You're misinformed on this. It certainly does pay. Take a look at how animals are raised in factory farms, and chicken batteries. They don't want the animals moving around too much because they develop muscle, so they cram them all in little cages so that they can barely move. The industry hardly gets tarnished because our laws protect the meat industry by ensuring that they can do whatever they want behind closed doors.

The only reason that their is such an outcry about seals and not factory farms, is because the atrocities that take place in factory farms are hidden from the public, as opposed to out in the open.

"It's the going after the Calgary Stampede and going after people who make their careers in the meat industry feeding people that I don't approve of."

What argument is this? Careers? What if someone makes their career in dog fighting? Does that mean we shouldn't oppose it?

Don't you think there are other ways to feed people, than to engage in such brutal cruelty as exists in factory farms?

"It's not the tactics I'm concerned about, it's the fact that in spite of these tactics more and more people are persuaded into believing the PETA propaganda and that makes the meat industry a bigger gong show than it already is."

PETA is extreme. Their tactics are often more aimed at getting attention than bringing about real change, and their goals are often too lofty to be realized in one generation - but they do make some valid points, although they are often obfuscated and buried under a whole lot of nonsense.

"We do experiments on people as well, granted they give consent. However, some experiments conducted on primates are of benefit to us as far as the medical field goes. Unfortunately a human life is worth more than a monkey's life. It's the lesser of two evils."

Regardless of the relative value of lives, human or monkey, there is a limit to the suffering that any being should have to endure. If you see the torture that they put dogs, cats and monkeys through, any person with compassion would realize how very wrong that is. Most of these experiments are not for life-saving medicines, but for a new mascara, or a way for old men to get another boner, or ways for obese people to crave food less.

Regardless of these benefits, no being should be tortured to the extent that these animals are.

[bloodyminded]

"It doesn't pay in the meat industry to be cruel to animals either."

You're misinformed on this. It certainly does pay. Take a look at how animals are raised in factory farms, and chicken batteries. They don't want the animals moving around too much because they develop muscle, so they cram them all in little cages so that they can barely move. The industry hardly gets tarnished because our laws protect the meat industry by ensuring that they can do whatever they want behind closed doors.

The only reason that their is such an outcry about seals and not factory farms, is because the atrocities that take place in factory farms are hidden from the public, as opposed to out in the open.

"It's the going after the Calgary Stampede and going after people who make their careers in the meat industry feeding people that I don't approve of."

What argument is this? Careers? What if someone makes their career in dog fighting? Does that mean we shouldn't oppose it?

Don't you think there are other ways to feed people, than to engage in such brutal cruelty as exists in factory farms?

"It's not the tactics I'm concerned about, it's the fact that in spite of these tactics more and more people are persuaded into believing the PETA propaganda and that makes the meat industry a bigger gong show than it already is."

PETA is extreme. Their tactics are often more aimed at getting attention than bringing about real change, and their goals are often too lofty to be realized in one generation - but they do make some valid points, although they are often obfuscated and buried under a whole lot of nonsense.

"We do experiments on people as well, granted they give consent. However, some experiments conducted on primates are of benefit to us as far as the medical field goes. Unfortunately a human life is worth more than a monkey's life. It's the lesser of two evils."

Regardless of the relative value of lives, human or monkey, there is a limit to the suffering that any being should have to endure. If you see the torture that they put dogs, cats and monkeys through, any person with compassion would realize how very wrong that is. Most of these experiments are not for life-saving medicines, but for a new mascara, or a way for old men to get another boner, or ways for obese people to crave food less.

Regardless of these benefits, no being should be tortured to the extent that these animals are.

I agree completely. Anticipating some...ill-thought-out responses, I'll reiterate that I think PETA's tactics are often ridiculous, even self-defeating. I'm not a fan.

But these factory farms are disgusting. Horrible.

[M.Dancer]

"It doesn't pay in the meat industry to be cruel to animals either."

You're misinformed on this. It certainly does pay. Take a look at how animals are raised in factory farms, and chicken batteries. They don't want the animals moving around too much because they develop muscle, so they cram them all in little cages so that they can barely move

That's not cruel. Carrots are treated the same way. Put a trough of food in front of a pig, and it wont move a foot....ever.

[Guest TrueMetis]

"It doesn't pay in the meat industry to be cruel to animals either."

You're misinformed on this. It certainly does pay. Take a look at how animals are raised in factory farms, and chicken batteries. They don't want the animals moving around too much because they develop muscle, so they cram them all in little cages so that they can barely move. The industry hardly gets tarnished because our laws protect the meat industry by ensuring that they can do whatever they want behind closed doors.

Have you every been to a factory farm? You make it sound like these animals can't move at all. Even if they couldn't move how is that cruel? Most animals are happy as long as they are fed.

[KeyStone]

That's not cruel. Carrots are treated the same way. Put a trough of food in front of a pig, and it wont move a foot....ever.

Wow, the carrots comparison. I thought juvenile debates such as those were left on the playground along with the Mr.T lunchboxes.

FYI, people are animals. So, by extension, it would stand to reason that people would be happy just being fed and slaughtered?

If you don't agree with that statement (and let's assume you don't), then logic would indicate that not all animals are equal. There are certain forms of algae for instance which likely don't feel pain.

Most mammals on the other hand do feel pain, and have other senses, feelings, and needs other than eating.

Apparently, you've never owned a dog or a cat, or this would be blitheringly obvious to you.

As for pigs, if you give a pig unlimited food, yes it will move eventually. It will roll in the mud, play etc - once its primary need (food) is met.

[KeyStone]

Have you every been to a factory farm? You make it sound like these animals can't move at all. Even if they couldn't move how is that cruel? Most animals are happy as long as they are fed.

They do not let the public into factory farms, as I have suggested in my post. So, no I have not been to one. I have not been to North Korea either, but I think it's fair to speculate on places you have never been, based on a variety of informational sources. I did not go to a concentration camp, but I feel I can say without contradiction that they were cruel places.

In some cases, the animals are not intended to move, so that the meat is particularly tender, as muscle is not developed.

In the 80's for instance, photos came out of calves put in tiny boxes so that they could barely move for the production of veal. Veal sales plummeted as a result. Naturally, these photos were obtained through duplicity as the factory farmers are aware many people, would stop eating it if they knew the conditions. The response was to launch a PR campaign suggesting things have changed, as well as to make better security precautions ensuring that photos aren't leaked in the future. The actual improvements are any ones guess.

As for your assertion that most animals are happy as long as they are fed, it's flat out wrong.

Try keeping your dogs food bowl full, but don't play with him or take him for walks and see how happy he is.

Actually, scratch that. I wouldn't want someone like you owning a dog.

[M.Dancer]

If you don't agree with that statement (and let's assume you don't), then logic would indicate that not all animals are equal. There are certain forms of algae for instance which likely don't feel pain.

Correct, not all animals are equal, hence the price per pound difference between chickens and beef.

Most mammals on the other hand do feel pain, and have other senses, feelings, and needs other than eating.

Apparently, you've never owned a dog or a cat, or this would be blitheringly obvious to you.

Most mammals feel pain? Which mammals don't? And how is that particularly relevant? I thought we were tallking about how they were raised, not how they are put down.

[M.Dancer]

They do not let the public into factory farms, as I have suggested in my post.

Are there many farms that are open to the public and give tours or do they let you walk around randomly?

[DrGreenthumb]

They do not let the public into factory farms, as I have suggested in my post. So, no I have not been to one. I have not been to North Korea either, but I think it's fair to speculate on places you have never been, based on a variety of informational sources. I did not go to a concentration camp, but I feel I can say without contradiction that they were cruel places.

In some cases, the animals are not intended to move, so that the meat is particularly tender, as muscle is not developed.

In the 80's for instance, photos came out of calves put in tiny boxes so that they could barely move for the production of veal. Veal sales plummeted as a result. Naturally, these photos were obtained through duplicity as the factory farmers are aware many people, would stop eating it if they knew the conditions. The response was to launch a PR campaign suggesting things have changed, as well as to make better security precautions ensuring that photos aren't leaked in the future. The actual improvements are any ones guess.

As for your assertion that most animals are happy as long as they are fed, it's flat out wrong.

Try keeping your dogs food bowl full, but don't play with him or take him for walks and see how happy he is.

Actually, scratch that. I wouldn't want someone like you owning a dog.

I HAVE been in a factory pig-farm, on many occassions, as I worked there for several months before deciding that I could no longer be a party to that kind of treatment of animals. The barn I worked at was a weanling operation, and the sows, from the time they are impregnated(which is as soon as the last batch is weaned)are kept inside a cage the size of their body. Their head sticks out the front into the trough, and their ass sticks out the back so their waste can drop into the aisle for easy removal. They can not even turn around, and can only move a step or two forward or back. Hundreds of pigs are lined up, in this manner, and only ever get out of their cages and into a slightly larger pen for the ammount of time it is feeding its babies. Factory farms are cruel, and don't let anyone try to convince you otherwise.

[M.Dancer]

Their head sticks out the front into the trough, and their ass sticks out the back so their waste can drop into the aisle for easy removal. They can not even turn around, and can only move a step or two forward or back.

I suppose the sow rolling over and crushing the piglets is more humane...

[Oleg Bach]

Why wouldn't we on this issue

Right - PETA threatens to take a bite out of the economy

Left - PETA threatens to put more people in the poorhouse and take their jobs away.

But then again PETA has zero credibility, I wonder how much a gazelle suffers when a cheetah eats it alive...

Nothing more stupid than listening to a protein starved and swooning vegan saying " I never eat anything with a face" Fish all look the same...they are faceless and to make a minsister faceless with a pie will serve no purpose other than reminding us that PETA will assualt and maybe kill humans and spare the cod.

[Guest TrueMetis]

They do not let the public into factory farms, as I have suggested in my post. So, no I have not been to one. I have not been to North Korea either, but I think it's fair to speculate on places you have never been, based on a variety of informational sources. I did not go to a concentration camp, but I feel I can say without contradiction that they were cruel places.

Difference there is there are pictures of those events, show me pictures of the "cruel" factory farms that aren't 30 years old.

In some cases, the animals are not intended to move, so that the meat is particularly tender, as muscle is not developed.

In the 80's for instance, photos came out of calves put in tiny boxes so that they could barely move for the production of veal. Veal sales plummeted as a result. Naturally, these photos were obtained through duplicity as the factory farmers are aware many people, would stop eating it if they knew the conditions. The response was to launch a PR campaign suggesting things have changed, as well as to make better security precautions ensuring that photos aren't leaked in the future. The actual improvements are any ones guess.

Hey a thirty year old example congrats. How about something from this millenium?

As for your assertion that most animals are happy as long as they are fed, it's flat out wrong.

Try keeping your dogs food bowl full, but don't play with him or take him for walks and see how happy he is.

Actually, scratch that. I wouldn't want someone like you owning a dog.

I do exactly that, though my dogs live outside.

I HAVE been in a factory pig-farm, on many occassions, as I worked there for several months before deciding that I could no longer be a party to that kind of treatment of animals. The barn I worked at was a weanling operation, and the sows, from the time they are impregnated(which is as soon as the last batch is weaned)are kept inside a cage the size of their body. Their head sticks out the front into the trough, and their ass sticks out the back so their waste can drop into the aisle for easy removal. They can not even turn around, and can only move a step or two forward or back. Hundreds of pigs are lined up, in this manner, and only ever get out of their cages and into a slightly larger pen for the ammount of time it is feeding its babies. Factory farms are cruel, and don't let anyone try to convince you otherwise.

You would rather the sow crush the piglets? Florida made this practice illegal and the Pork industry in florida folded in a year, it drove up prices to much. Many places in Europe don't allow this and they pay much more for their pork, I think its 2 or 3 times more.

Edited February 18, 2010 by TrueMetis

[Oleg Bach]

Difference there is there are pictures of those events, show me pictures of the "cruel" factory farms that aren't 30 years old.

Hey a thirty year old example congrats. How about something from this millenium?

I do exactly that, though my dogs live outside.

Wish I could teach the childless liberal youth to keep the mutts out doors where they belong. But it is almost impossible in a growing urban environment. So in the mean time get the sticky tape out to remove the hair and at least teach the mutt to sleep on the floor...PETA will not rest until the animals have place mats at the table. STILL growing chickens in the dark to make them fat round and legless is absurd- corporations should at least provide real meat and not this bio-jello with the chicken flavour.

[KeyStone]

"Difference there is there are pictures of those events, show me pictures of the "cruel" factory farms that aren't 30 years old."

It is not as if there are a shortage of pictures. These are more difficult to obtain than previously, because most of the operations have moved behind closed doors, and they do a better job of screening job applicants for potential 'animal rights spies'.

"http://all-creatures.org/anex/index.html"

I'm sure if you spent even half as much time googling, as you did suggesting that no such pictures exist, you would have found plenty.

They do not let the public into factory farms, as I have suggested in my post. So, no I have not been to one. I have not been to North Korea either, but I think it's fair to speculate on places you have never been, based on a variety of informational sources. I did not go to a concentration camp, but I feel I can say without contradiction that they were cruel places.

"Difference there is there are pictures of those events, show me pictures of the "cruel" factory farms that aren't 30 years old."

Your poor debate skills really show forth here. So, under your logic, if a photo is more than 30 years old, it isn't real?

I guess you don't believe in genocide or holocausts then, since you can't find any recent photos.

Incidentally, the link I posted above, has plenty of recent photos.

"Hey a thirty year old example congrats. How about something from this millenium?"

Wow, three times you've used that uber-weak argument. Perhaps you should 'look before you leap'

"I do exactly that, though my dogs live outside."

And you believe that you can tie your dog up so he can't move more than a foot, and as long as you give him food, he'll be happy? I hope someone calls the SPCA on you.

I don't know if you are being intentionally obtuse, or if you really aren't that clever, but to suggest that animals are happy in cages that aren't big enough to turn around in, as long as they have food is absurd.

"Florida made this practice illegal and the Pork industry in florida folded in a year, it drove up prices to much."

I find it curious that you are able to find out obscure legislation from Florida from three years ago, but you don't think animal cruelty exists anymore, because you weren't able to find a picture.

Well, obviously there is a reason that people are cruel to animals. It's cheaper than providing proper conditions. So, if you don't have a level playing field, you are going to go out of business, unless you market your product effectively - such as free range chickens.

Just because you save some money, doesn't make it right.

"Many places in Europe don't allow this and they pay much more for their pork, I think its 2 or 3 times more."

If pork costs three times as much to produce without cruelty then so be it. I am sure that owning slaves would reduce the factory costs of production, but it doesn't make it OK.

The key is to ban it within the trading area, such that all pork sold to Europeans comes from cruelty free farms, so that there is a level playing field.

Edited February 22, 2010 by KeyStone

[Guest TrueMetis]

"Difference there is there are pictures of those events, show me pictures of the "cruel" factory farms that aren't 30 years old."

It is not as if there are a shortage of pictures. These are more difficult to obtain than previously, because most of the operations have moved behind closed doors, and they do a better job of screening job applicants for potential 'animal rights spies'.

"http://all-creatures.org/anex/index.html"

I'm sure if you spent even half as much time googling, as you did suggesting that no such pictures exist, you would have found plenty.

There's a lot wrong in that go vegan, heavily biased, bible reference laced, guilt trip, trying to give human emotions to animal website so I'll stick to the chickens.

Hatchlings: Pictures from German egg farms this is Canada. Does Canada follow the same method as Germany? Though to be honest I'm having trouble seeing exactly what is wrong with killing the males seeing as they are basically useless. As long as it is done in a humane fashion what the problem? (which it is in Canada)

Debeaking: Usually doesn't happen in Canada. There are multiple things poultry farmers are advised to do before resorting to beak trimming.

Egg production: Egg batteries aren't normally used in Canada and if they are they must be designed to give each chiken enough space.

Forced molting: Not practiced in Canada.

Meat production: Again cages are not normally used and the chicken must have enough room.

Transportation: Personnel must be properly train and supervised. There are many thing farmers are supposed to do to prevent injury and suffering to the bird when being captured and during transport.

Slughter: Electrocution, decapitation, or gas stunning. Not that pretty but not that cruel either.

canadian agri-food research council recommended code of practice

Though this is voluntary codes like this have become recognized by the courts.

They do not let the public into factory farms, as I have suggested in my post. So, no I have not been to one. I have not been to North Korea either, but I think it's fair to speculate on places you have never been, based on a variety of informational sources. I did not go to a concentration camp, but I feel I can say without contradiction that they were cruel places.

Are you part of PETA? Because the Nazi concentration camp to slaughter house comparison is their thing. It is also incredibly distrubing that you would make that comparison and shows how much you value human life.

Just because they don't advertize doesn't mean they don't allow tours try calling one of the farms.

http://www.straight.com/article-146417/offthemap-farm-tours-are-free-taking

Your poor debate skills really show forth here. So, under your logic, if a photo is more than 30 years old, it isn't real?

I guess you don't believe in genocide or holocausts then, since you can't find any recent photos.

Incidentally, the link I posted above, has plenty of recent photos.

The point was just because it happened thirty years ago doesn't mean it is still happening. To continue with your holocaust analogy (which you seem to love comparing killin animal to) it would be like someone seeing a picture of the holocaust from the 1930's and thinking Germany is still trying to kill all the jews.

Incidently, the link you posted above, show pictures that aren't from Canada.

And you believe that you can tie your dog up so he can't move more than a foot, and as long as you give him food, he'll be happy? I hope someone calls the SPCA on you.

I don't know if you are being intentionally obtuse, or if you really aren't that clever, but to suggest that animals are happy in cages that aren't big enough to turn around in, as long as they have food is absurd.

My dog can run around were ever the hell they want as long as they stay outside. My dogs work for a living they are there to deal with the Coyotes and Bears.

Which pictures did you see? Even in the worst ones the animals could still move.

Are things perfect? No but they aren't as bad as people like you try to make them out to be, and improvements are always being made.

Edited February 22, 2010 by TrueMetis

[KeyStone]

"There's a lot wrong in that go vegan, heavily biased, bible reference laced, guilt trip, trying to give human emotions to animal website so I'll stick to the chickens."

I'm sorry I was unable to produce recent photos from a source which you view as acceptable. Unfortunately Maple Leaf Foods doesn't have any photos up. Are you suggesting that these photos are doctored? What precisely is wrong with them, that you feel you can dismiss the photos? Any other requirements? Oh, the photos must be from Canada as well?

So, in order for you to believe that animal cruelty exists, you want recent photos, from a commercial site where there is evidence that all the photos were taken in Canada? Is that about right, or do you have other requirements for the photos?

I'm not sure why you have suddenly limited everything to Canada, but alright.

You've listed several practices considered inhumane in the poultry industry. Some of these such as moulting are not practiced as often as the US. However, it is not illegal, and from what I have read it is practiced, just not as often. Furthermore, we really have no idea what is practiced, since virtually all operations are behind closed doors and not subject to public scrutiny.

"Though this is voluntary codes like this have become recognized by the courts."

Voluntary codes and $1.95 will get you a cup of coffee. What does recognized by the courts mean exactly? Have any companies been prosecuted or penalized for not adhering to voluntary codes? That would sort of make the codes not voluntary, don't you think?

"Are you part of PETA? Because the Nazi concentration camp to slaughter house comparison is their thing"

I am not part of PETA. You seemed incapable of understanding that if evidence was produced more than 30 years ago, it was still valid, so I came up with an example of something more than 30 years old, that you couldn't possibly deny the existence of.

"It is also incredibly distrubing that you would make that comparison and shows how much you value human life."

What utter nonsense. Do you understand the difference between similar and same? If you grew up in Canada, you would have been taught that in about grade three. I am obviously not saying that killing Jews and killing animals is the same thing. I am simply saying that these two things bothy happened more than 30 years ago. I chose the holocaust because I know that is the only example I can be certain that you won't deny the existence of, without more recent evidence.

"Just because they don't advertize doesn't mean they don't allow tours try calling one of the farms."

Hysterical. Absolutely hysterical. These are free-range farms that are giving tours. Obviously, they want the public to come out and see the conditions the animals are kept in, because that is how they justify a premium. Do you really think that the factory farms are going to be inviting the public out to see how they run things?

Surely, not even you are so naive as to think that these farms that throw their doors open are representative of the meat industry. Try getting a tour from Maple Leaf Foods and their gestation crates. Maybe in ten years.

http://www.hsicanada.ca/farmed_animals/gestation_crates/maple_leaf_foods_ends_confinement.html

"Incidently, the link you posted above, show pictures that aren't from Canada."

I don't know the exact situation in Canada. I'm sorry my photos didn't meet your stringent requirements. I'll take a year off work to go undercover to capture the exact photo that will convince you that this sort of cruelty does exist.

"My dog can run around were ever the hell they want as long as they stay outside. My dogs work for a living they are there to deal with the Coyotes and Bears."

I don't want to debate with you about your dog. Just admit that you were wrong when you stated that it's not cruel to keep an animal in conditions where they can't move or even turn around. If you are a dog owner and can't even admit that, than you're just engaging in intellectual dishonesty, and there is no further point in conversing with you.

"Which pictures did you see? Even in the worst ones the animals could still move."

http://www.all-creatures.org/anex/pig-gest-01.html

http://www.all-creatures.org/anex/pig-gest-05.html

"Are things perfect? No but they aren't as bad as people like you try to make them out to be, and improvements are always being made."

It's pretty f'cking atrocious. I challenge you to spend one week of your life in those conditions. We don't let mass murderers endure those conditions.

As for things getting better. Perhaps in some ways, thanks to organizations like PETA, and the people who went undercover to get these photos. They sure as hell aren't getting better thanks to people who keep their head in the sand and pretend this stuff doesn't happen and people who suggest animals can be perfectly happy even if they don't have enough space to turn around.

Edited February 23, 2010 by KeyStone

[bloodyminded]

I suppose the sow rolling over and crushing the piglets is more humane...

A sow rolling over and killing her piglets is not humane, true; neither is it inhumane.

Edited February 23, 2010 by bloodyminded

[Guest TrueMetis]

"There's a lot wrong in that go vegan, heavily biased, bible reference laced, guilt trip, trying to give human emotions to animal website so I'll stick to the chickens."

I'm sorry I was unable to produce recent photos from a source which you view as acceptable. Unfortunately Maple Leaf Foods doesn't have any photos up. Are you suggesting that these photos are doctored? What precisely is wrong with them, that you feel you can dismiss the photos? Any other requirements? Oh, the photos must be from Canada as well?

I'm suggesting that the site is to biased to be accurate, and yes they do have to be from Canada I don't buy from other countries and I have zero control over their policy so I don't care about what goes on there.

So, in order for you to believe that animal cruelty exists, you want recent photos, from a commercial site where there is evidence that all the photos were taken in Canada? Is that about right, or do you have other requirements for the photos?

No that about sums it up.

I'm not sure why you have suddenly limited everything to Canada, but alright.

The reason should be obvious.

You've listed several practices considered inhumane in the poultry industry. Some of these such as moulting are not practiced as often as the US. However, it is not illegal, and from what I have read it is practiced, just not as often. Furthermore, we really have no idea what is practiced, since virtually all operations are behind closed doors and not subject to public scrutiny.

So your biggest argument is we don't actually know if what they are doing is inhumane? Hilarious.

"Though this is voluntary codes like this have become recognized by the courts."

Voluntary codes and $1.95 will get you a cup of coffee. What does recognized by the courts mean exactly? Have any companies been prosecuted or penalized for not adhering to voluntary codes? That would sort of make the codes not voluntary, don't you think?

If the courts feel that the code is reasonable they code make a ruling based on it and set a precendant.

"Are you part of PETA? Because the Nazi concentration camp to slaughter house comparison is their thing"

I am not part of PETA. You seemed incapable of understanding that if evidence was produced more than 30 years ago, it was still valid, so I came up with an example of something more than 30 years old, that you couldn't possibly deny the existence of.

No it's not valid just because they were practicing something 30 years ago doesn't mean they are know. Hell they still had residential schools 10 years ago and there are pictures that doesn't mean they're still around.

"It is also incredibly distrubing that you would make that comparison and shows how much you value human life."

What utter nonsense. Do you understand the difference between similar and same? If you grew up in Canada, you would have been taught that in about grade three. I am obviously not saying that killing Jews and killing animals is the same thing. I am simply saying that these two things bothy happened more than 30 years ago. I chose the holocaust because I know that is the only example I can be certain that you won't deny the existence of, without more recent evidence.

When did I say that I deny the exsistance of animal cruelty happening? My point was 30 year old photo's does not prove it's hapening NOW.

"Just because they don't advertize doesn't mean they don't allow tours try calling one of the farms."

Hysterical. Absolutely hysterical. These are free-range farms that are giving tours. Obviously, they want the public to come out and see the conditions the animals are kept in, because that is how they justify a premium. Do you really think that the factory farms are going to be inviting the public out to see how they run things?

Inviting? No. Actively avoiding I doubt it.

Surely, not even you are so naive as to think that these farms that throw their doors open are representative of the meat industry. Try getting a tour from Maple Leaf Foods and their gestation crates. Maybe in ten years.

http://www.hsicanada.ca/farmed_animals/gestation_crates/maple_leaf_foods_ends_confinement.html

I'll email them to see about it. Incidently no longer useing gestation crates will increase prices for pork dramatically and this has nothing to do with ending cruelty and everything to do with caving in to pressure. This same thing happened in Florida and it resulted in the destruction of the pork industry there.

In any event

The American Veterinary Medical Association "recognize gestation stalls and group housing systems as appropriate for providing for the well-being of sows during pregnancy."

Paul Sundberg, a veterinarian and vice-president of the U.S. National Pork Producers Council

"Farmers treat their animals well because that's just good business. The key to sow welfare isn't whether they are kept in individual crates or group housing, but whether the system used is well managed." Sundberg said: "cience tells us that she [a sow] doesn't even seem to know that she can't turn ... She wants to eat and feel safe, and she can do that very well in individual stalls."

"Incidently, the link you posted above, show pictures that aren't from Canada."

I don't know the exact situation in Canada. I'm sorry my photos didn't meet your stringent requirements. I'll take a year off work to go undercover to capture the exact photo that will convince you that this sort of cruelty does exist.

Have fun.

"My dog can run around were ever the hell they want as long as they stay outside. My dogs work for a living they are there to deal with the Coyotes and Bears."

I don't want to debate with you about your dog. Just admit that you were wrong when you stated that it's not cruel to keep an animal in conditions where they can't move or even turn around. If you are a dog owner and can't even admit that, than you're just engaging in intellectual dishonesty, and there is no further point in conversing with you.

I'm not wrong see qoutes from above.

"Which pictures did you see? Even in the worst ones the animals could still move."

http://www.all-creatures.org/anex/pig-gest-01.html

http://www.all-creatures.org/anex/pig-gest-05.html

Same biased website. See qoutes above.

"Are things perfect? No but they aren't as bad as people like you try to make them out to be, and improvements are always being made."

It's pretty f'cking atrocious. I challenge you to spend one week of your life in those conditions. We don't let mass murderers endure those conditions.

As long as the food is free sure, bring it on.

As for things getting better. Perhaps in some ways, thanks to organizations like PETA, and the people who went undercover to get these photos. They sure as hell aren't getting better thanks to people who keep their head in the sand and pretend this stuff doesn't happen and people who suggest animals can be perfectly happy even if they don't have enough space to turn around.

PETA is a terrorist group plain and simple. Saying they help anything is moronic. You do realize these people advocate somehow stopping us from exploiting any animal and completely cutting us off from the natural world. As if we aren't a part of the ecosystem. PETA is filled with nothing but the brainwashed and lunatics.

[bloodyminded]

Paul Sundberg, a veterinarian and vice-president of the U.S. National Pork Producers Council

"Farmers treat their animals well because that's just good business. The key to sow welfare isn't whether they are kept in individual crates or group housing, but whether the system used is well managed." Sundberg said: "cience tells us that she [a sow] doesn't even seem to know that she can't turn ... She wants to eat and feel safe, and she can do that very well in individual stalls."

Hmmm. You excoriate a "biased website," directly after you offer the claims of the vice-president of the Pork Producers Council" as "evidence."

I enjoy his phraseology, too:

"cience tells us that she [a sow] doesn't even seem to know that she can't turn ... She wants to eat and feel safe, and she can do that very well in individual stalls."

So, let's parse this claim (offered sans supporting material as it is):

Science "tells us" that she doesn't even "seem" to know that she can't turn.

(I mean, it's not as if "science" also tells us that pigs are one of THE most intelligent animals that exist).

Then he says, "she wants to eat and feel safe"--well, that places her in the company of all animals, including human beings. The scientific insight here is impressive.

It's a totally meaningless phrase, actually. As he knows. And as you do, too.

Oh...and evidently "science tells us" that "she can do that very well in individual stalls."

"Individual stalls" a euphemism for "tiny, tiny little individual stalls in which she can barely move."

Does "science tell us" that pigs feel more safe, and can eat better, if their stalls are as little as possible? That's an interesting theory. No, wait; the other thing.....banal and devoid of actual information.

If a pig's stall is bigger, does this mean she won't feel safe, and can't eat?

[Mr.Canada]

This is assault plain and simple and the person responsible needs to be arrested and tried in a court of law. No person has the right to touch another person in any way without their consent in a harmful manner and doing so is an assault. In this case assault with a weapon. Punishable by up to five years in prison. These criminals need to to be brought to justice.

[Guest TrueMetis]

Hmmm. You excoriate a "biased website," directly after you offer the claims of the vice-president of the Pork Producers Council" as "evidence."

Hence the qoute from the American Veterinary Medical Association to back it up, and now a report.

http://www.avma.org/issues/animal_welfare/sow_housing_tfr.pdf

Doesn't allow me to caopy text but the summary is on page 8.

Edited February 24, 2010 by TrueMetis

[Guest TrueMetis]

Maple leaf foods does not give tours. I'll give that one to keystone.

[KeyStone]

"I'm suggesting that the site is to biased to be accurate, and yes they do have to be from Canada I don't buy from other countries and I have zero control over their policy so I don't care about what goes on there."

Granted, the site is biased when it comes to opinion and editorials, perhaps even statistics, but a picture is a picture.

The TTC wasn't able to dismiss the photo of the napping TTC workers, simply by saying the National Post was biased or that the taker of the photo was biased.

Regardless, we differ on the extent of cruelty in the industry, and I don't have the necessary proof to convince you otherwise.

But, surely, given that Maple Leaf Foods has said they are phasing out gestation crates over a ten year period, you must admit that they must have gestation crates (or they would have said 3 year period). It would seem they are following the lead of a big US pork producer that brought in similar measures.

"So your biggest argument is we don't actually know if what they are doing is inhumane? Hilarious."

Here is what we know:

- This sort of cruelty does exist, although the extent to how much it exists in Canada is debatable.

- These practices save the meat producers money (what other reason would they have for doing it?)

- Generally, the factory farms are behind closed doors and not open to the public.

- There are very few laws in Canada that regulate animal cruelty, as long as it can be justified monetarily.

So, all I am saying is let's pass a law to make these companies throw open their doors and show the world what is going on there. If it's all great conditions, no problem. If they are terrible conditions, but Canadians would rather save $0.50 when they buy pork, than change the conditions, then so be it.

"If the courts feel that the code is reasonable they code make a ruling based on it and set a precendant."

I had no idea that the Canadian court system worked that way. I had been under the misinformed assumption that judges couldn't actually create new laws, they could just interpret existing ones. Thank you for that clarification on how powerful the judges really are.

"Inviting? No. Actively avoiding I doubt it."

Really? You think that if you are engaged in a practice which the public is likely to object to, and which might bring unwanted attention to your practices, you wouldn't try to avoid people seeing what you are doing, particularly if there are no laws to stop you?

Take a look at the seal hunt. Their big complaint is that people can see what they are doing, because it is out in the open. And, they have done everything they can to restrict anyone not friendly to the cause that might be taking photos, or videos, such that there are laws making anyone not hunting stay kilometres away from the hunt, allegedly for safety reasons.

"I'll email them to see about it."

Well, at least you checked on it. I have to give you some credit there.

"Incidently no longer useing gestation crates will increase prices for pork dramatically"

Yes, prices will increase for pork, if certain practices are eliminated. Otherwise, there wouldn't be any point in having gestation crates, and engaging in these sorts of practices.

"and this has nothing to do with ending cruelty and everything to do with caving in to pressure. "

Well, meat companies aren't doing it because they care about cruelty, they are doing it because they are caving into pressure from those who want to end cruelty. Essentially, they don't want the negative publicity that it can bring. Health is also a consideration, especially given Maple Leaf's history.

"This same thing happened in Florida and it resulted in the destruction of the pork industry there.""

I couldn't find any articles on it collapsing but regardless, a level playing field is needed, in which case we ban it Canada wide, and refuse to accept any pork produced in those conditions.

"The American Veterinary Medical Association "recognize gestation stalls and group housing systems as appropriate for providing for the well-being of sows during pregnancy."

Well, they are primarily concerned with the animal's physical health. Gestations crates seem to do an adequate job of keeping the animals alive and healthy for six months before they are killed. A more relevant body might be the ASPCA which opposed gestation crates as well as pretty much any Humane Society that you can find.

"Paul Sundberg, a veterinarian and vice-president of the U.S. National Pork Producers Council

Farmers treat their animals well because that's just good business. The key to sow welfare isn't whether they are kept in individual crates or group housing, but whether the system used is well managed." Sundberg said: "cience tells us that she [a sow] doesn't even seem to know that she can't turn ... She wants to eat and feel safe, and she can do that very well in individual stalls."

Well, if the VP of the Pork Producers Council says its OK, then it must be OK. Clearly, he wouldn't have any reason to be biased. Surely, even you see the irony of calling my source (for photos) biased, and then offering an opinion, from someone clearly biased, as a source?

"I'm not wrong see qoutes from above."

So, you still believe that animals don't need anything but food to be happy?

"PETA is a terrorist group plain and simple. Saying they help anything is moronic. You do realize these people advocate somehow stopping us from exploiting any animal and completely cutting us off from the natural world. As if we aren't a part of the ecosystem. PETA is filled with nothing but the brainwashed and lunatics."

They are not a terrorist group. ARM. ALF and SHAC are the quasi-terrorist groups, as defined by US law. PETA is one of many groups against gestation crates, not all of which advocate a vegetarian lifestyle. They are simply the most vocal, and get the most attention. By setting the bar so high, it is hoped that it will be raised just a little.

[Guest TrueMetis]

"I'm suggesting that the site is to biased to be accurate, and yes they do have to be from Canada I don't buy from other countries and I have zero control over their policy so I don't care about what goes on there."

Granted, the site is biased when it comes to opinion and editorials, perhaps even statistics, but a picture is a picture.

The TTC wasn't able to dismiss the photo of the napping TTC workers, simply by saying the National Post was biased or that the taker of the photo was biased.

Picture can look bad when they really aren't.

Regardless, we differ on the extent of cruelty in the industry, and I don't have the necessary proof to convince you otherwise.

But, surely, given that Maple Leaf Foods has said they are phasing out gestation crates over a ten year period, you must admit that they must have gestation crates (or they would have said 3 year period). It would seem they are following the lead of a big US pork producer that brought in similar measures.

I don't consider gestation crates cruel. Neither does the American Veterinary Medical Association

"So your biggest argument is we don't actually know if what they are doing is inhumane? Hilarious."

Here is what we know:

- This sort of cruelty does exist, although the extent to how much it exists in Canada is debatable.

- These practices save the meat producers money (what other reason would they have for doing it?)

- Generally, the factory farms are behind closed doors and not open to the public.

- There are very few laws in Canada that regulate animal cruelty, as long as it can be justified monetarily.

-I'll agree with that

-Agreed as well

-After emailing maple leaf food this seems to be true

-Think that depends on the animal in question. eg the Harp seal hunt is one of the best regulated in the world.

So, all I am saying is let's pass a law to make these companies throw open their doors and show the world what is going on there. If it's all great conditions, no problem. If they are terrible conditions, but Canadians would rather save $0.50 when they buy pork, than change the conditions, then so be it.

Alright sure.

"If the courts feel that the code is reasonable they code make a ruling based on it and set a precendant."

I had no idea that the Canadian court system worked that way. I had been under the misinformed assumption that judges couldn't actually create new laws, they could just interpret existing ones. Thank you for that clarification on how powerful the judges really are.

My understanding of it is it does not become a law but a standard of practice. I'll look into it a bit more and find out just what exactly happens.

"Inviting? No. Actively avoiding I doubt it."

Really? You think that if you are engaged in a practice which the public is likely to object to, and which might bring unwanted attention to your practices, you wouldn't try to avoid people seeing what you are doing, particularly if there are no laws to stop you?

No you're right it does seem they are avoiding it.

Take a look at the seal hunt. Their big complaint is that people can see what they are doing, because it is out in the open. And, they have done everything they can to restrict anyone not friendly to the cause that might be taking photos, or videos, such that there are laws making anyone not hunting stay kilometres away from the hunt, allegedly for safety reasons.

Because the photo's are used to promote a message that isn't true, and many of the protesters harass the sealers.

"I'll email them to see about it."

Well, at least you checked on it. I have to give you some credit there.

February 24, 2010

Case #619833

Dear Mr. Metis,

Thank you for your recent inquiry.

Please note that unfortunately, we do not provide tours.

If we can provide any further assistance, please do not hesitate to contact us at 1-800-268-3708.

Thank you for choosing Maple Leaf Foods.

Sincerely,

Catherine Dion

Consumer Response Representative

You were right there.

"Incidently no longer useing gestation crates will increase prices for pork dramatically"

Yes, prices will increase for pork, if certain practices are eliminated. Otherwise, there wouldn't be any point in having gestation crates, and engaging in these sorts of practices.

True. Though group pens are a possiblity as it turns out.

"and this has nothing to do with ending cruelty and everything to do with caving in to pressure. "

Well, meat companies aren't doing it because they care about cruelty, they are doing it because they are caving into pressure from those who want to end cruelty. Essentially, they don't want the negative publicity that it can bring. Health is also a consideration, especially given Maple Leaf's history.

Again true but gestation crates aren't seen as cruel by the American Veterinary Medical Association. See the report I listed earlier.

"This same thing happened in Florida and it resulted in the destruction of the pork industry there.""

I couldn't find any articles on it collapsing but regardless, a level playing field is needed, in which case we ban it Canada wide, and refuse to accept any pork produced in those conditions.

I think that would violate some trade agreements.

"The American Veterinary Medical Association "recognize gestation stalls and group housing systems as appropriate for providing for the well-being of sows during pregnancy."

Well, they are primarily concerned with the animal's physical health. Gestations crates seem to do an adequate job of keeping the animals alive and healthy for six months before they are killed. A more relevant body might be the ASPCA which opposed gestation crates as well as pretty much any Humane Society that you can find.

Gestation crates are used when a pig is pregnant, and pigs are bred multiple times before slaughter.

Does the ASPCA have a study?

"Paul Sundberg, a veterinarian and vice-president of the U.S. National Pork Producers Council

Farmers treat their animals well because that's just good business. The key to sow welfare isn't whether they are kept in individual crates or group housing, but whether the system used is well managed." Sundberg said: "cience tells us that she [a sow] doesn't even seem to know that she can't turn ... She wants to eat and feel safe, and she can do that very well in individual stalls."

Well, if the VP of the Pork Producers Council says its OK, then it must be OK. Clearly, he wouldn't have any reason to be biased. Surely, even you see the irony of calling my source (for photos) biased, and then offering an opinion, from someone clearly biased, as a source?

See report. Though the real argument from him is the "Farmers trear their animals well because they's just good business" which I would argue is true because many animals give inferior quality meat or other products if they are unhealthy or stressed.

"I'm not wrong see qoutes from above."

So, you still believe that animals don't need anything but food to be happy?

I'm not sure after reading the report but there are times when they may be better off.

"PETA is a terrorist group plain and simple. Saying they help anything is moronic. You do realize these people advocate somehow stopping us from exploiting any animal and completely cutting us off from the natural world. As if we aren't a part of the ecosystem. PETA is filled with nothing but the brainwashed and lunatics."

They are not a terrorist group. ARM. ALF and SHAC are the quasi-terrorist groups, as defined by US law. PETA is one of many groups against gestation crates, not all of which advocate a vegetarian lifestyle. They are simply the most vocal, and get the most attention. By setting the bar so high, it is hoped that it will be raised just a little.

PETA funds ALF and people like Rod Coronado. That makes PETA a terrorists group.

Ingrid Newkirk

"There is no hidden agenda. If anybody wonders about — what’s this with all these reforms — you can hear us clearly. Our goal is total animal liberation."

"Humans have grown like a cancer. We're the biggest blight on the face of the earth."

"I’m not only uninterested in having children. I am opposed to having children. Having a purebred human baby is like having a purebred dog; it is nothing but vanity, human vanity."

"In the end, I think it would be lovely if we stopped this whole notion of pets altogether."

"Pet ownership is an absolutely abysmal situation brought about by human manipulation."

"Eating meat is primitive, barbaric, and arrogant."

"Six million people died in concentration camps, but six billion broiler chickens will die this year in slaughterhouses."

"Well, it’s not like this is anything we are trying to hide. About three times in our 21-year history we have thought it was a good idea — and still do — to defend some very good activists who have done some decent things for animals and who have happened to get into trouble. One of those people is Rodney Coronado, who is a very committed Native American animal rights activist and a decent person. He did something [firebombed a research facility at Michigan State University] that put him in prison for three-and-a-half years and I think that if we hadn’t provided him with a good legal defence he wouldn’t be back out doing productive things in the community again — like the good person that he is. We are very happy to have done that."

PETA supports terrorists that makes them terrorists.

Edited February 27, 2010 by TrueMetis