Defining one's self in society

[Pliny]

The other day this lady had a jacket at her office that someone had won in a contest but never picked it up. She decided she would help some poor, homeless soul out in the cool, wet lower mainland weather and took the jacket when she left work to do just that.

She knew of a needy fellow who would probably appreciate the warmth of a nice new jacket and it was nice; anyone would have gladly worn it. There he was at his usual haunt shivering in the cold damp weather with a thin, worn sweater with hand out. The lady asked if he wanted a good coat. He looked at it and said, "No". The lady was perplexed by this and felt informing him it was brand new and had never been worn would maybe change his mind. But the answer was still - no. He did not want the coat.

The lady shook her head and thought, "Well, if he doesn't want it someone else will."

and she left to find someone else. She came across another fellow whom she often passed on her way to and from her office downtown and offered him the coat. He turned her down as well. It was a perplexing situation but then she thought of an annoying individual who often, with a smile and an upbeat tone, asked her for spare change. She didn't give her any because, well, she didn't "look" like she needed it. She had a nice jacket and was too happy.

I think she realized then why the first two didn't take her offer of the coat. They looked like they were poor and needy and, for them at least, it was more successful to appear as they did.

You would think that they would take the coat and sell it or pawn it for cash but they didn't even seem to consider doing that. They weren't interested.

Is this unusual? Was that the right conclusion to come to regarding why they didn't want the coat? Is there some other possible explanation?

[bush_cheney2004]

....Is this unusual? Was that the right conclusion to come to regarding why they didn't want the coat? Is there some other possible explanation?

No....I don't think so. Offering the new garment from her assumed value proposition may not be consistent with their perception, and may in fact be a subtle challenge to the notion of panhandling or even homelessness (i.e. wasting money on drugs/alcohol).

Clothing collection and distribution is pretty standardized in most cities; the value of a "new" coat for resale is low and may invite unwanted attention.

Edited January 18, 2010 by bush_cheney2004

[August1991]

You would think that they would take the coat and sell it or pawn it for cash but they didn't even seem to consider doing that. They weren't interested.

Pawn a coat? What world do you live in?

I'm with BC on this one. The secondary market in clothing is specialized and has high transaction costs.

IMHO, any successful beggar has to play the part and the interesting question is what part they play. In India, physical deformities are the usual method. In Russia, it was amputated men in camo, or almost anyone with a cardboard personal story, often detailed. I have noticed this approach has started to creep into panhandlers in Montreal. It used to be just a sign with "Broke, homeless, hungry. Anything welcome." (Sometimes in fractured French implying that the beggars are English.) Recently I saw "Wife sick, two kids. Need help." I didn't read the fineprint but the man looked east European. His coat was worn.

[bush_cheney2004]

....IMHO, any successful beggar has to play the part and the interesting question is what part they play. In India, physical deformities are the usual method. In Russia, it was amputated men in camo, or almost anyone with a cardboard personal story, often detailed. I have noticed this approach has started to creep into panhandlers in Montreal.

Something has happened to this layer or spectrum of society since my childhood, when beggars or bums were acknowledged as being in this state without further analysis save for distinctions between winos, hobos, or the mentally ill. They were just part of the usual landscape. Later on they became generalised "homeless" victims and pawns for all manner of political and social agendas, no matter how well intentioned.

Consider that as recently as 1970, a "homeless" person (usually male) was glamorized in media as cleverly riding the rails from one adventure to the next. (Red Skelton made a living from just such a character.) I specifically remember a 1960's syndicated Canadian television program that featured a "homeless" canine star (The Littlest Hobo). My favorite and most compelling "beggars" were amputees on rolling dollies at subway stations. They didn't want my pity or judgement...just my loose change!

As for the new coat, just hang it from a tree with a sign..."Free Coat". Don't insist on the personal reward in exchange for it.

[Pliny]

Well, those on the street have defined themselves, found what is successful for them, have little responsibility, and live with a greater freedom than most of us.

They won't be any different until they redefine themselves. All the tea in China won't make them any different - only a change in the concept of themselves will do it.

[kimmy]

As for the new coat, just hang it from a tree with a sign..."Free Coat". Don't insist on the personal reward in exchange for it.

Yes, there are lots of ways to give a coat to someone who needs it, and by far the easiest ways are anonymous. Why donate it in person unless you're seeking some sort of personal validation From the act?

My suggestion is: donate it to a Salvation Army thrift shop or a Value Village.

These places are frequented by people who would like to purchase nice things but can't or won't pay full retail for them. Often these shops are frequented by the working poor, people who are trying to make their own way and don't wish to feel like they are receiving charity.

When that coat ends up in the hands of somebody who buys it at Value Village, it will be worn with pride. If someone asks where they got that nice coat, he will be able to say "I bought it" instead of "someone gave it to me." That might not seem like a big deal for most of us, but I bet somebody will appreciate it.

-k

[Pliny]

Yes, there are lots of ways to give a coat to someone who needs it, and by far the easiest ways are anonymous. Why donate it in person unless you're seeking some sort of personal validation From the act?

My suggestion is: donate it to a Salvation Army thrift shop or a Value Village.

These places are frequented by people who would like to purchase nice things but can't or won't pay full retail for them. Often these shops are frequented by the working poor, people who are trying to make their own way and don't wish to feel like they are receiving charity.

When that coat ends up in the hands of somebody who buys it at Value Village, it will be worn with pride. If someone asks where they got that nice coat, he will be able to say "I bought it" instead of "someone gave it to me." That might not seem like a big deal for most of us, but I bet somebody will appreciate it.

-k

The person your describe has a different concept of himself. The person I describe likes to make it known..."I got it for nothing, man!" Sadly, he has no concept of the price he has paid in self worth. Whereas the person who likes to say "I bought it" still has some sense of personal integrity and self worth.

Some of the people on the street may have just decided that it isn't worth having or owning anything because it gets taken away from you anyway and life is like that.

I suppose what I am saying is that the people who find themselves on the street are there because of their own frame of mind.

By the way, the lady who was offering the coat wasn't looking for any "personal validation". Like yourself, she didn't realize that people can fall below the level of taking any pride in themselves. Pride, to someone below that, is just a term describing someone who thinks they are better.

What do you think of a person showing off his new car? Is he just proud of it saying "I bought it". Are you inclined to think he is an ass? Someone like your boss? Any display of pride to the homeless is hurtful - it is interpreted as a put down and a holier than thou attitude not as a positive asset.

[August1991]

When that coat ends up in the hands of somebody who buys it at Value Village, it will be worn with pride. If someone asks where they got that nice coat, he will be able to say "I bought it" instead of "someone gave it to me." That might not seem like a big deal for most of us, but I bet somebody will appreciate it.

I'm suspicious of that reasoning, although I understand it. Few if any kids buy their own clothing. Their parents do the buying. And I think a wife would proudly say "my husband gave it to me" if indeed he bought it and she wore it.

More generally, many people inherit wealth and go on to be successful. The proof is that we have all inherited the various inventions and institutions created in the past.

IMV, the problem is not "receiving charity". The problem is in making a career of it. And apparently, like most other careers, begging requires the proper dress.

[bush_cheney2004]

....By the way, the lady who was offering the coat wasn't looking for any "personal validation". Like yourself, she didn't realize that people can fall below the level of taking any pride in themselves. Pride, to someone below that, is just a term describing someone who thinks they are better.

But that is the point....many of the homeless do have pride in themselves. Even at their "level", there is a heirarchy of dignity and acceptable behavior.

True story: I was visiting family on leave in the early 80's and had borrowed my old man's current project car, just to get around town....it was a "lowly" 1964 Ford Falcon. After parking in an open lot to have lunch and observe how the town (Las Vegas) had changed, I was approached by a "homeless" person and assumed that he would pander for money. Instead, he kindly told me that food was available at a nearby church mission...but then...then.... he saw the MacDonald's bag on the car seat. It changed his entire demeanor, and he apologised with a "Oh, sorry, you're working" and quickly walked away.

[Oleg Bach]

Yesterday I was approached by an old bearded man with bad teeth and flaking skin.. He looked me in the eye and said that he was sick and needed one more dollar to get a couple of bottles of sherry- so I gave it to him..at least he was honest...I would say this honest man has more dignity than some high up billionare who sells arms to wage wars for profit..Who is more dignified and void of shame? The honest drunk - or the dishonest billionare willing to kill thousands for profit so he can gold plate his toilet seats?

[Pliny]

IMV, the problem is not "receiving charity". The problem is in making a career of it. And apparently, like most other careers, begging requires the proper dress.

Isn't that the truth.

[Pliny]

But that is the point....many of the homeless do have pride in themselves. Even at their "level", there is a heirarchy of dignity and acceptable behavior.

True story: I was visiting family on leave in the early 80's and had borrowed my old man's current project car, just to get around town....it was a "lowly" 1964 Ford Falcon. After parking in an open lot to have lunch and observe how the town (Las Vegas) had changed, I was approached by a "homeless" person and assumed that he would pander for money. Instead, he kindly told me that food was available at a nearby church mission...but then...then.... he saw the MacDonald's bag on the car seat. It changed his entire demeanor, and he apologised with a "Oh, sorry, you're working" and quickly walked away.

Reminds me of the phrase, "There is honour among thieves."

[Oleg Bach]

Isn't that the truth.

Presentation and appearance is everything - you need a nicely cut 3000 dollar suit to get a banking bail out.

[Pliny]

Yesterday I was approached by an old bearded man with bad teeth and flaking skin.. He looked me in the eye and said that he was sick and needed one more dollar to get a couple of bottles of sherry- so I gave it to him..at least he was honest...I would say this honest man has more dignity than some high up billionare who sells arms to wage wars for profit..Who is more dignified and void of shame? The honest drunk - or the dishonest billionare willing to kill thousands for profit so he can gold plate his toilet seats?

If the billionaire sold arms to wage war for profit then tell the government to quit buying them. How is the billionaire dishonest besides overcharging? The government still pays the bills.

The honest drunk was honest because it worked once.....and it worked again.

Bet he didn't have a nice coat.

[Oleg Bach]

If the billionaire sold arms to wage war for profit then tell the government to quit buying them. How is the billionaire dishonest besides overcharging? The government still pays the bills.

The honest drunk was honest because it worked once.....and it worked again.

Bet he didn't have a nice coat.

NO his coat was not noticable..I suppose he was ragged. My dad taught me what he learned in prison camps near the end of the war..keep up your appearance and hygene. He did so and the Nazis let him serve the food to the officers..I guess it was because he was an officer and a gentleman. The government does not buy arms by the way..they have other people do it..I believe they are called dealers - Like Malroney for instance..what the hell was that about? There is no government on the planet that is not corrupt and self serving - there are none that install governments that are not the same. Point being - any additive product generates wealth for a few - and killing seems to be addictive to some in high positions - whether the killing is done with their hand or not - it's still war and war is the greatest thrill and sign of ultimate material success for a few - those who have no limit to achievement...To take anothers life or destroy a nation - is the greatest thrill for some A holes. It makes them feel that their lives meant something when they take life. Losers!

[charter.rights]

No one here has any idea why the homeless would refuse charity, or help they had not otherwise asked for. You can't possibly understand what homelessness is like unless you have lived it.

All everyone is doing is projecting from a very limited perspective. A totally useless exercise.

[bush_cheney2004]

No one here has any idea why the homeless would refuse charity, or help they had not otherwise asked for. You can't possibly understand what homelessness is like unless you have lived it.

...and yet another false assumption.

[kimmy]

Pride, to someone below that, is just a term describing someone who thinks they are better.

What do you think of a person showing off his new car? Is he just proud of it saying "I bought it". Are you inclined to think he is an ass? Someone like your boss? Any display of pride to the homeless is hurtful - it is interpreted as a put down and a holier than thou attitude not as a positive asset.

Yes, I'd be inclined to think someone who goes around boasting about his material goods is an ass. However, that's not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about the pride people take in earning things for themselves. When I was in high school I had a crappy Reliant that I'd bought using money I earned myself. Some of my friends had far better cars that their parents purchased for them. To me, that piece of garbage was a Lexus.

I'm suspicious of that reasoning, although I understand it. Few if any kids buy their own clothing. Their parents do the buying. And I think a wife would proudly say "my husband gave it to me" if indeed he bought it and she wore it.

That might be true for those people. However, those things are not true of everybody. Lots of people feel a strong desire to achieve things on their own. (As a species, we'd be sunk if that weren't true.)

More generally, many people inherit wealth and go on to be successful. The proof is that we have all inherited the various inventions and institutions created in the past.

IMV, the problem is not "receiving charity". The problem is in making a career of it. And apparently, like most other careers, begging requires the proper dress.

I don't see a problem with receiving charity, but I think many (most?) people have a wish to believe they can make their own way in the world and don't need the generosity of others to do so.

-k

[Pliny]

Yes, I'd be inclined to think someone who goes around boasting about his material goods is an ass. However, that's not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about the pride people take in earning things for themselves. When I was in high school I had a crappy Reliant that I'd bought using money I earned myself. Some of my friends had far better cars that their parents purchased for them. To me, that piece of garbage was a Lexus.

I understand your point but there is a two way street here. Some of your fellow students probably felt some angst about being lesser beings since you had a "Lexus" and they had nothing. Some probably had a better self image and saw all you had was a crappy Reliant which they would never want anyway. Some would probably not associate with you if they saw you driving that car. It depends upon their own self-image and all you know is you are proud of what you accomplished.

I don't see a problem with receiving charity, but I think many (most?) people have a wish to believe they can make their own way in the world and don't need the generosity of others to do so.

-k

I agree with you here.

Edited January 21, 2010 by Pliny

[kimmy]

I understand your point but there is a two way street here. Some of your fellow students probably felt some angst about being lesser beings since you had a "Lexus" and they had nothing. Some probably had a better self image and saw all you had was a crappy Reliant which they would never want anyway. Some would probably not associate with you if they saw you driving that car. It depends upon their own self-image and all you know is you are proud of what you accomplished.

That's all that matters. Anything else is beyond my control.

If I had classmates who were jealous of the mighty Reliant ...well, the bar was set pretty low for them to keep up. If I had classmates who wouldn't associate with someone who drove such an uncool car, well, what do I care? I probably wouldn't have had the right brands of clothes for their liking either.

Classmates who had been given cars, well, perhaps they saw themselves as superior. Perhaps they saw themselves as fortunate. A lot of their peers saw themselves as spoiled rotten. Doesn't really matter. They didn't learn how it feels to earn things for yourself... but I'm sure most of them learned that in some other way.

There's no universally understood way of telling the rest of the world who you are. The car you drive, the clothes you wear, the message they send to anybody else depends entirely on their own interpretation. When I see someone driving a "Hummer", I have a preconceived notion about the driver that's probably very different from what they would like people to think.

People will make assumptions about you based on what they see before they know what you're about as a person. It's the way people are. A few years ago I got run off the Rabble/Babble message board for claiming that people who adorn themselves with tattoos and piercings are subjecting themselves to negative prejudices. Well, they are. We're all subject to various prejudices. People will interpret what they see in a way that fits with their own experiences and ideas, and come to conclusions that they will use as the starting point when they interact with you. You can't really control how they will react, but you would probably want to avoid using visual symbols that are at odds with the assumptions you'd like people to start with.

The interpretation when somebody wearing a nice coat asks for money is probably pretty obvious.

-k

[charter.rights]

...and yet another false assumption.

Not at all. If people like you knew the answers to homelessness, there wouldn't be any. But alas you don't even understand it and you can;t fix what you don't understand.

Homelessnes is but a symptom.

[bush_cheney2004]

Not at all. If people like you knew the answers to homelessness, there wouldn't be any. But alas you don't even understand it and you can;t fix what you don't understand.

Who says we want to fix it? Another false assumption.

Homelessnes is but a symptom.

...or choice that you don't understand either.

[Oleg Bach]

Homelessness is usally generated spite by the establishment - a resentment and hate for the socially and economically non-compliant.

[bush_cheney2004]

Homelessness is usally generated spite by the establishment - a resentment and hate for the socially and economically non-compliant.

Right...in the Old West, they were glamorized as "cowboys" or..... "desperados".....

Desperado, why don't you come to your senses?

You been out ridin' fences for so long now

Oh, you're a hard one

I know that you got your reasons

These things that are pleasin' you

Can hurt you somehow

Don't you draw the queen of diamonds, boy

She'll beat you if she's able

You know the queen of hearts is always your best bet

Now it seems to me, some fine things

Have been laid upon your table

But you only want the ones that you can't get

Desperado, oh, you ain't gettin' no younger

Your pain and your hunger, they're drivin' you home

And freedom, oh freedom well, that's just some people talkin'

Your prison is walking through this world all alone

Don't your feet get cold in the winter time?

The sky won't snow and the sun won't shine

It's hard to tell the night time from the day

You're losin' all your highs and lows

Ain't it funny how the feeling goes away?

Desperado, why don't you come to your senses?

Come down from your fences, open the gate

It may be rainin', but there's a rainbow above you

You better let somebody love you, before it's too late

[Oleg Bach]

Had a friend named Terri - He worked for this corporation that created a private health facility for the super rich - It was called The Kings Health Center. There was a guy named Ron who wanted to buy cheap art from me to decorate a new wing..Ron was a troll - he and his friends used to sit and get drunk on 2000 dollar a bottle brandy in the afternoon - Terri really admired these chumps..Terry admire me also but had and explaination for why I was always broke...speaking of Desperados...Terri said to me in order to find success I who he imagined as a renegade horse...said "You have to be willing to be broke and you must let someone ride you" In other words give in to these types of people.

Eventually Ron...suddenly split town...He collapsed the company in a rapid fashion - stuffed 30 million in cash in a suit case and took off...They found Ron after the feds kidnapped his daughter and threatened to charge the girl unless dear old dad came back..well Ron was holed up in a cheezy motel eating bad take out food --somewhere just below the bible belt..point being...I am glad I remained a Desperado and never gave into these jerks - He also had some friend who skimmed the banks for a few million to build pits to dispose of toxic waste...they stole the money and dumped the waste down storm sewers and into Torontos water supply...from what I gather these guys took off to the states also and got a contract taking care of Atlantas water supply..

This stuff was very hush hush and I was just an artist observing the inner workings of so-called respectable people..so no way in hell am I going to come out of the cold and join bastards like I have described...I would rather be poor which I am.