Environment, oilsands

[Smallc]

The beginning and the end of your paragraph don't jive.

[blueblood]

The beginning and the end of your paragraph don't jive.

At shareholder meetings it does.

[ToadBrother]

I am all about majority rules. The majority is never wrong in the grand scheme of things...

Do you suppose the Athenians were thinking that as the Spartans dismantled their empire in the final days of the Peloponnesian War?

[Smallc]

At shareholder meetings it does.

Perhaps you missed the part where I said that a country isn't a corporation.

[blueblood]

Do you suppose the Athenians were thinking that as the Spartans dismantled their empire in the final days of the Peloponnesian War?

Skill on the battlefield is beyond the voters control. The athenian voters have no influence over a Spartan gov't.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Skill on the battlefield is beyond the voters control. The athenian voters have no influence over a Spartan gov't.

This corporate concept keeps coming up, and that damned light bulb is lite up again. I think there is something to consider there, if you know what I mean. A merger of a couple or few of schools of thought may prove very relevant. Perhaps a nation and its citizens should really become or morph into that corporate entity we created as a business model. Could we not all benefit from a system designed to pay for itself?

[Smallc]

A system designed to pay for itself? What does that even mean?

[Jerry J. Fortin]

A system designed to pay for itself? What does that even mean?

What do you mean, what does that even mean? It means designing a system of merged concepts that would serve to promote and protect the concepts of an enlightened western society composed of the social programs and services desired by the people in a manner conversant with the ability to generate sufficient revenues to fund the fiscal requirements dictated by the expressed will of the people.

A system that functions on a pay as you go basis. You can only have what you can afford to pay for. If the system is properly designed then it should be profitable which allows for the additional programs and services desired by the people as time goes on.

I think we need to realize there is no turning back the clock and start hacking away at what we already have. The people will not accept a reduction in lifestyle or standard of living, only increases are desired. Simple truth, the reality that escapes us to some degree from time to time.

[Smallc]

A system that functions on a pay as you go basis. You can only have what you can afford to pay for.

Up until this recession, that was what we had, and it's what we'll have again in a few years.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Up until this recession, that was what we had, and it's what we'll have again in a few years.

To some degree yes, but look at the level of taxation required to fund it. What I am suggesting is using a business like model to produce revenues outside of a framework of taxation.

[Smallc]

What I am suggesting is using a business like model to produce revenues outside of a framework of taxation.

We do that too....but conservatives and libertarians hate the idea. Taxes in Canada really aren't that high in comparison to most of the developed world....people just like to complain.

[blueblood]

We do that too....but conservatives and libertarians hate the idea. Taxes in Canada really aren't that high in comparison to most of the developed world....people just like to complain.

44% of the top income bracket is not high? That's garbage.

[Smallc]

That depends on the province that you live in. Compared to much of the developed world, we really don't have high taxes. Only 33% of our economy is taxed, lower than much of Europe and not much higher than the US, Australia, and Japan.

If you're in the top income bracket, you can afford it.

Edited January 10, 2010 by Smallc

[blueblood]

That depends on the province that you live in. Compared to much of the developed world, we really don't have high taxes. Only 33% of our economy is taxed, lower than much of Europe and not much higher than the US, Australia, and Japan.

If you're in the top income bracket, you can afford it.

That's BS, why should I be punished for succeeding? Why should I be punished for spending my money in Canada improving our economy? Why should I be punished for using less services than the average Canadian?

Trudeau had that attitude with Alberta with his NEP policy, fat lot of good that did.

Why do leftists feel that people who are able to do well should pay a disproportionate amount of tax? Why do leftists think that people having money is a bad thing? When a person gets paid that money is immediately going to work, it helps provide the banks liquidity to provide loans to people looking to better themselves. As far as helping people goes, there is no way a government holds a candle to the bank. Then there is when a person spends there money and how that helps everyone.

Do you think the government knows how to spend my money better than I do?

[nicky10013]

That's BS, why should I be punished for succeeding? Why should I be punished for spending my money in Canada improving our economy? Why should I be punished for using less services than the average Canadian?

Trudeau had that attitude with Alberta with his NEP policy, fat lot of good that did.

Why do leftists feel that people who are able to do well should pay a disproportionate amount of tax? Why do leftists think that people having money is a bad thing? When a person gets paid that money is immediately going to work, it helps provide the banks liquidity to provide loans to people looking to better themselves. As far as helping people goes, there is no way a government holds a candle to the bank. Then there is when a person spends there money and how that helps everyone.

Do you think the government knows how to spend my money better than I do?

No "leftist" thinks that people having money is a bad thing. Why liberals argue for progessive taxation is that the state budget has to be paid by someone and you can't expect the poor to handle the massive brunt which is what would happen if the tax brackets were equalized. Despite what a lot of conservatives believe, the state does provide services for which the general public take for granted. Military, roads, bridges, hospitals, sanitation, diplomacy, regulation, education. All these things provide nothing more than the ability to build a life for ourself. To assume anything else is just ignorance.

[Smallc]

That's BS, why should I be punished for succeeding? Why should I be punished for spending my money in Canada improving our economy?

Why should I be punished for using less services than the average Canadian?

You aren't being punished. It is this society that has allowed you the opportunity to succeed. You owe it a debt of gratitude.

Why do leftists feel that people who are able to do well should pay a disproportionate amount of tax?

Because we don't mind doing it ourselves.

Why do leftists think that people having money is a bad thing?

I have a better question. Why are you putting words in my mouth?

When a person gets paid that money is immediately going to work, it helps provide the banks liquidity to provide loans to people looking to better themselves.

That's funny, because the same thing happens when the government spends money on social services.

Do you think the government knows how to spend my money better than I do?

That question is based on a false premise. For the privilege of living in this society, you give up the right to some of your income. If you don't want to, you can move and take up another country's citizenship. That's your right. And yes, I do think the government is smarter with money than a lot of people. There are a lot of people I know who don't have what would be considered AAA credit ratings.

[blueblood]

You aren't being punished. It is this society that has allowed you the opportunity to succeed. You owe it a debt of gratitude.

So let me get this straight, I contribute to society by spending in it, and pumping the bank with dollars in my accounts and getting slapped with a 44% tax is the thanks I get? If anything society owes a debt of gratitude to people who succeed by providing low tax rates. Jurisdictions that follow this method tend to perform very well, see Alberta.

Because we don't mind doing it ourselves.

Probably since most leftists come from poor backgrounds, their share of the tax is far less. It's easy to spend other people's money. Doing something yourself is one thing, but justifying robbery is another.

I have a better question. Why are you putting words in my mouth?

You are justifying people who do well to get soaked at tax time. That to me is having a problem with people making money. What's wrong with a flat tax like they have in Alberta?

That's funny, because the same thing happens when the government spends money on social services.

Like on old age pensions. The gov't robs people and only pays 11k per year. You show me an example of how the gov't helps out people more than a bank can. The gov't won't give me a mortgage to buy a house, but a bank can. A bank can provide me an operating loan, the government can't.

The private sector does far more for making the lives better of ordinary people than the government ever can. Why people would want to punish the private sector for making people's lives better is beyond me.

That question is based on a false premise. For the privilege of living in this society, you give up the right to some of your income. If you don't want to, you can move and take up another country's citizenship. That's your right. And yes, I do think the government is smarter with money than a lot of people. There are a lot of people I know who don't have what would be considered AAA credit ratings.

Calling card of a socialist. The government should have the privelege of having a productive private sector which provides the government with its tax dollars and should be willing to give up some of its tax income for that privelege. It must be like a knife twisting in your back everytime a business incorporates and the government is short that much more money. If the government is as smart as you make them out to be, write a cheque signing over all of your money to the government, live off of government assistance, and see how that works out for you.

Chavez thinks like you do, and his people are poorer because of it.

[Smallc]

So let me get this straight, I contribute to society by spending in it, and pumping the bank with dollars in my accounts and getting slapped with a 44% tax is the thanks I get? If anything society owes a debt of gratitude to people who succeed by providing low tax rates. Jurisdictions that follow this method tend to perform very well, see Alberta.

You often speak of Chavez. How well off in comparison to now would you be if you had been born in Venezuela? The taxes we pay are a small price.

As for Alberta, quit brining it up. If they weren't sitting (literally) on a treasure chest, their tax rates would be higher.

Probably since most leftists come from poor backgrounds, their share of the tax is far less. It's easy to spend other people's money. Doing something yourself is one thing, but justifying robbery is another.

I make more money than average. I don't mind paying about 1/4 of my income to my country and my province.

You are justifying people who do well to get soaked at tax time. That to me is having a problem with people making money. What's wrong with a flat tax like they have in Alberta?

What it is to you is irrelevant. People can be wealthy and pay taxes at the same time. Only in the mind of a libertarian does a dichotomy exist when it comes to such matters.

Like on old age pensions. The gov't robs people and only pays 11k per year. You show me an example of how the gov't helps out people more than a bank can. The gov't won't give me a mortgage to buy a house, but a bank can. A bank can provide me an operating loan, the government can't.

Unless of course you're poor. My grandfather was diagnosed with an enlarged heart when he was 30. He was told he would die in ten years but he ended up living to be over 80. He was unable to work (other than a few simple tasks) for the rest of his life because it would have killed him. Because the government 'robbed' other people, he, my grandmother, and their 4 children were able to grow up live and now my parents and one of my uncles contribute more in taxes than most people make...even though my uncle thinks about it close to the way that you do.

My grandmother is still alive today, and lives off of about 13K per year. It's enough for her to live in relative comfort. What could a bank do for her? What could it have done for her family? There are other people in this country. Not just you.

The private sector does far more for making the lives better of ordinary people than the government ever can. Why people would want to punish the private sector for making people's lives better is beyond me.

Both do things to make people's lives better. An unregulated private sector is probably the most dangerous thing in the world. Similarly, the lack of a strong private sector is very dangerous. Without both private business and smart government we have nothing.

Calling card of a socialist.

The government should have the privelege of having a productive private sector which provides the government with its tax dollars and should be willing to give up some of its tax income for that privelege.

The government needs money to operate. It's important to remember that the government is (usually) a reflection of the will of the governed. In our country, the collective good has been determined to be as important as the individual good. The two goods co-exist here. If you don't like it (since that's basically a reflection of the founding ideas of this country) then move.

It must be like a knife twisting in your back everytime a business incorporates and the government is short that much more money.

My family runs an extremely successful business. You have no idea what you're talking about.

It must kill you every time the money that the government 'robs' from you goes to feed a senior or a child that would otherwise be starving.

If the government is as smart as you make them out to be, write a cheque signing over all of your money to the government, live off of government assistance, and see how that works out for you.

Why would I do that? I said I like paying taxes, I didn't say I liked being poor.

[ToadBrother]

Skill on the battlefield is beyond the voters control. The athenian voters have no influence over a Spartan gov't.

I think you missed the point. Going against Sparta was rather like Canada going against the United States. The voters were very much wrong. That they compounded that bit of lunacy by subsequently democratically voting to force Socrates to commit suicide, as if he were to blame for their stupidity, suggests that voters can not only be wrong, but be outrageously vindictive as well.

[Alta4ever]

You aren't being punished. It is this society that has allowed you the opportunity to succeed. You owe it a debt of gratitude.

BS society hasn`t allowed you the opportunity to succeed or exercise any fundamental rights. At some point in history someone fought for those rights and that opportunity and a veteran defended them.

Societies always end up collapsing on themselves, like the roman empire which fell under the weight of social policies as the state ended up taking too much of the economic wealth to squander it.

History repeats itself, anyone who comprehends history can see it.

An over abundance of social policies will do the same to us.

[blueblood]

You often speak of Chavez. How well off in comparison to now would you be if you had been born in Venezuela? The taxes we pay are a small price.

As for Alberta, quit brining it up. If they weren't sitting (literally) on a treasure chest, their tax rates would be higher.

Why would I want to be born in a socialist banana republic like that? Your moving the goal posts speaking like that. I wouldn't mind having an operation similar to mine in Ireland though, the tax breaks would be devine.

Bullocks, I will bring up Alberta time and again. They can properly manage their resources, attract business and grow their economy. Quebec and Ontario have big money advantages of their own, cry me a river that they pissed them away. Quebec and Ontario sit on their own treasure chest, not my problem they can't manage things.

I make more money than average. I don't mind paying about 1/4 of my income to my country and my province.

I bet you wouldn't mind paying less than that. Try paying close to half and then talk to us.

What it is to you is irrelevant. People can be wealthy and pay taxes at the same time. Only in the mind of a libertarian does a dichotomy exist when it comes to such matters.

People and society can be wealthier if wealthy people pay less taxes.

Unless of course you're poor. My grandfather was diagnosed with an enlarged heart when he was 30. He was told he would die in ten years but he ended up living to be over 80. He was unable to work (other than a few simple tasks) for the rest of his life because it would have killed him. Because the government 'robbed' other people, he, my grandmother, and their 4 children were able to grow up live and now my parents and one of my uncles contribute more in taxes than most people make...even though my uncle thinks about it close to the way that you do.

My grandmother is still alive today, and lives off of about 13K per year. It's enough for her to live in relative comfort. What could a bank do for her? What could it have done for her family? There are other people in this country. Not just you.

My parents were both diagnosed with cancer, where do you think they got treated? Off to the USA, where we aren't going to gamble with waiting list nonsense. Because of the lack of waiting lists and the fact that we can purchase better care in the US, I still get to have my parents around.

When I retire I can look forward to a 50K per year retirement in today's dollars, and that's without the piddly little gov't pension. A bank could have given her various loans to help her out when she was younger, could the gov't do that?

Both do things to make people's lives better. An unregulated private sector is probably the most dangerous thing in the world. Similarly, the lack of a strong private sector is very dangerous. Without both private business and smart government we have nothing.

Please explain how an unregulated private sector is the most dangerous thing in the world. Gov't regulations brought on the CRA, which has resulted in the mess we are in now.

The government needs money to operate. It's important to remember that the government is (usually) a reflection of the will of the governed. In our country, the collective good has been determined to be as important as the individual good. The two goods co-exist here. If you don't like it (since that's basically a reflection of the founding ideas of this country) then move.

There's operating costs and there's robbery. What was going on in the 90's with those massive surpluses amounted to robbery. 44% tax is robbery. Why not have everyone pay the same tax and adjust "services" accordingly? It is well within my rights not to like a tax system. I can just as easily say if you don't like that a large portion of Canadians want low taxes, then you can move as well.

My family runs an extremely successful business. You have no idea what you're talking about.

It must kill you every time the money that the government 'robs' from you goes to feed a senior or a child that would otherwise be starving.

Not the tugging at the heart strings argument, that's like a crazy girl playing the suicide card to keep her boyfriend. In this country if you are starving, that's your fault not mine. We have immigrants come over with 20 dollars and turn into millionaires, no excuse for being that poor with the job opportunities generated by people like me. I can say that its people like me spending our money that results in less starvation than in countries where people aren't allowed to make money.

Why would I do that? I said I like paying taxes, I didn't say I liked being poor

Your the one who says that government knows how to spend money better than anyone else. If you want to make claims like that, put your money where your mouth is. I don't like being poor either, being taxed at 44% makes me poorer than being taxed at a lower rate. For you to say that people who succeed should be happy being soaked at 44% when you get to pay 25%, is like Al Gore blabbing about climate change while flying around in a private jet.

[blueblood]

I think you missed the point. Going against Sparta was rather like Canada going against the United States. The voters were very much wrong. That they compounded that bit of lunacy by subsequently democratically voting to force Socrates to commit suicide, as if he were to blame for their stupidity, suggests that voters can not only be wrong, but be outrageously vindictive as well.

Wrong is subjective. The voters can vote however they want and its their problem to live with the decisions of their actions. That's the athenians business if they are "wrong" or not. The people of Sparta "voted" their system of government in by not rioting/causing disturbances/civil revolution.

[Wild Bill]

No "leftist" thinks that people having money is a bad thing. Why liberals argue for progessive taxation is that the state budget has to be paid by someone and you can't expect the poor to handle the massive brunt which is what would happen if the tax brackets were equalized. To assume anything else is just ignorance.

Methinks it is you and those others who agree with you who are ignorant, Nicky. Or at least, mathematically challenged.

If you graph out incomes to show poor, middle and high you will see the obvious. The working man represents by far all the available tax money!

The poor have no money and the so-called "rich" are in such small numbers by comparison that you could take ALL of their income and it wouldn't amount to a hill of beans compared to the amount offered by all the working people.

It sounds impressive to hear that a man makes a million dollars a year. For tax purposes, that could be the same as 20 working people making $50,000, which today is NOT rich! There are far more than 20 x the people making $50K or less than are making a million dollars.

"Tax the rich" is just a tired old diversion that takes advantage of the fact that most of us have poor basic math skills. It's a diversion, to keep us from noticing a very sad fact of nature, that working people are taxed 'cuz that's where all the money is!

As I said, the government could take ALL the income from the number of Canadians making a million or more dollars per year and it would be a pittance by comparison.

No, if we want tax relief we have to pay attention to HOW tax money is spent, not how much rich or working folks pay! I wouldn't be surprised if privitization could cut tax bills in some areas in half! I've seen how the government operates, first hand! General Motors 1955 is a model of modernization and efficiency by comparison. A better question would be if some of those areas need to be done at all!

Anyhow, if you don't believe me, go to StatsCan and pull the numbers yourself. 1 + 1 = 2, it's that basic.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Methinks it is you and those others who agree with you who are ignorant, Nicky. Or at least, mathematically challenged.

If you graph out incomes to show poor, middle and high you will see the obvious. The working man represents by far all the available tax money!

The poor have no money and the so-called "rich" are in such small numbers by comparison that you could take ALL of their income and it wouldn't amount to a hill of beans compared to the amount offered by all the working people.

It sounds impressive to hear that a man makes a million dollars a year. For tax purposes, that could be the same as 20 working people making $50,000, which today is NOT rich! There are far more than 20 x the people making $50K or less than are making a million dollars.

"Tax the rich" is just a tired old diversion that takes advantage of the fact that most of us have poor basic math skills. It's a diversion, to keep us from noticing a very sad fact of nature, that working people are taxed 'cuz that's where all the money is!

As I said, the government could take ALL the income from the number of Canadians making a million or more dollars per year and it would be a pittance by comparison.

No, if we want tax relief we have to pay attention to HOW tax money is spent, not how much rich or working folks pay! I wouldn't be surprised if privitization could cut tax bills in some areas in half! I've seen how the government operates, first hand! General Motors 1955 is a model of modernization and efficiency by comparison. A better question would be if some of those areas need to be done at all!

Anyhow, if you don't believe me, go to StatsCan and pull the numbers yourself. 1 + 1 = 2, it's that basic.

The one tax payer concept is something folks need to think about.. On the other hand privatizing government operations may not be the way to go either.

[Smallc]

Why would I want to be born in a socialist banana republic like that?

I didn't realize that we chose where we're born.

Your moving the goal posts speaking like that. I wouldn't mind having an operation similar to mine in Ireland though, the tax breaks would be devine.

I'm not moving the goal post at all. This society that others built has allowed you the opportunity to succeed. In order to maintain that society, we have to pay taxes to fund it.

Bullocks, I will bring up Alberta time and again. They can properly manage their resources, attract business and grow their economy. Quebec and Ontario have big money advantages of their own, cry me a river that they pissed them away. Quebec and Ontario sit on their own treasure chest, not my problem they can't manage things.

Until recently Ontario was doing fine...Quebec was growing well too..or did you miss the part where the entire US economy collapsed?

I bet you wouldn't mind paying less than that. Try paying close to half and then talk to us.

People and society can be wealthier if wealthy people pay less taxes.

Where's your proof of that? Most wealthy societies (those with as high or a GDP as us or higher) in this world are within a few points of us in terms of taxes.

My parents were both diagnosed with cancer, where do you think they got treated? Off to the USA, where we aren't going to gamble with waiting list nonsense. Because of the lack of waiting lists and the fact that we can purchase better care in the US, I still get to have my parents around.

My grandmother got colon cancer twice. It was removed immediately both times....once in Winnipeg, the other time in Dauphin. Your parents probably wasted their money. With the introduction of a second Gamma Knife at the Health Sciences Centre as well as the Siemens Artiste, not to mention the operating rooms of the future there isn't much better care that can be bought anywhere else.

When I retire I can look forward to a 50K per year retirement in today's dollars, and that's without the piddly little gov't pension. A bank could have given her various loans to help her out when she was younger, could the gov't do that?

Bull. The bank doesn't give loans to people with no earning power (she had 4 children to look after). Like I said, you aren't the only person who lives here. Not everyone is as lucky as you. Get over yourself.

Please explain how an unregulated private sector is the most dangerous thing in the world. Gov't regulations brought on the CRA, which has resulted in the mess we are in now.

If you need me to explain, then it's no use me doing it. Un unregulated private sector is as bad as a total control communist government. Without regulations relating to corporate honesty, safety, employment standards, etc., business will run wild until wealth is eventually concentrated in the hands of a small group and everyone else is either dead or so poor they might as well be dead. At that point, the capitalist society collapses.

There's operating costs and there's robbery. What was going on in the 90's with those massive surpluses amounted to robbery.

We only started those massive surpluses in 1995ish. In the year 2000 you got the biggest tax break ever and you have gotten tax breaks almost every ear since then. You seem to forget that we still have a massive debt that eats up over 10% of the federal budget in debt service fees. If we would work harder to pay that off, instead of worrying so much about today, wed be way better off...and look where we are now. We have a new deficit, even without stimulus.

44% tax is robbery.

In your opinion. The reality is, you don't pay 44% on most of your income if you're making under 200K per year.

Why not have everyone pay the same tax and adjust "services" accordingly? It is well within my rights not to like a tax system. I can just as easily say if you don't like that a large portion of Canadians want low taxes, then you can move as well.

As I said, I like the society we live in, and society is generally an expression of the people's will, even if they don't always get exactly what we want. Our country was founded on the principles of peace, order, and good government. If you want life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, well, go somewhere else.

Not the tugging at the heart strings argument, that's like a crazy girl playing the suicide card to keep her boyfriend.

I think it's better than the tugging at the purse strings argument.

In this country if you are starving, that's your fault not mine.

Possibly...or possibly not. Thankfully, in this society, the responsibility to do something about it falls on all of us to spread out the cost and ensure that as few people as possible slip through the cracks.

We have immigrants come over with 20 dollars and turn into millionaires, no excuse for being that poor with the job opportunities generated by people like me.

Not everyone is you. Not everyone can do the same things you do. I'm not sure you understand humanity that well.

I can say that its people like me spending our money that results in less starvation than in countries where people aren't allowed to make money.

You can say what you like, it doesn't necessarily make it true. Government and business both have important rolls in society.

Your the one who says that government knows how to spend money better than anyone else.

Go back and read it again. I never said that. I happen to have nearly perfect credit.

If you want to make claims like that, put your money where your mouth is.

I pay all my taxes, without complaint.

I don't like being poor either, being taxed at 44% makes me poorer than being taxed at a lower rate.

But it doesn't seem to make you poor.

For you to say that people who succeed should be happy being soaked at 44% when you get to pay 25%, is like Al Gore blabbing about climate change while flying around in a private jet.

There are very few people who pay anywhere close to 44%. As I said, I make above the average for Manitoba, Canada, and the US. If I'm paying 25%, the vast majority of people are paying less.

Edited January 10, 2010 by Smallc