Not just Muslim Cell Phones, Now Chinese Oil in Alberta

[kimmy]

Yes... yes, you did - while making your back-handed slag against Ontario/Ontarians. You may have intended to explicitly state something about racist characterizations... but you didn't. You simply, as you've now stated in this your latest reply, quoted from the OP and made a reference to "profound ignorance".

Indeed I did. I had thought William Ashley's comments spoke for themselves.

The guy opens his post by saying of Alberta: "Don't they still call Chinese chincs there?"

Are you honestly telling me you need someone to explain you you why this is "profound ignorance"?

within Toronto... or mostly in... in consideration of the Alberta chapter of the Heritage Front?

Perhaps, but that would be pure speculation. The only solid information Kinsella provides about the neo-Nazis and Heritage Front infiltrating the Reform Party is that they were "mostly in the Greater Toronto Area".

Buffing out his attack on Albertans by providing us evidence of neo-Nazi activity in Toronto is most ingenious!

interesting... that's quite a leap from the OP statement that speaks to "neo-Nazi supporters being furious"

Nice crop of the quote, but no. He's not saying supporters of neo-Nazis will be furious. He's saying the supporters of this government are neo-Nazis who'll be furious to have Chinese bosses:

Doesn't it sting albertans to know that Canada sold out athabasca to the Chinese?

Their NeoNazi supporters must be furrious knowing that they will be working for their Chinese Bosses.

It's obvious what he's getting at here. Sure, maybe his shoddy writing skills would leave some doubt as to what he's trying to say, except that his prejudice is so clearly stated in the opening line of the message, which was, again: "Don't they still call Chinese chincs there?"

and you could argue that position; equally... those opposed to the attack ad could similarly argue from the position stated within the linked to article; specifically:

If the argument is equally applicable to a white person, how is it a racist argument?

I expect, if he's interested/inclined, he will reply. As for the latest call for some to hold others to higher standards, the same can be said... can be requested... of those with apparent sensitivities that reach well beyond what's actually stated.

Well beyond what's actually stated, my ass. The guy's prejudice and ignorance are clearly stated in his message. It's obvious he was trying to write a slam piece and provoke a reaction, and, he got one. He was posting earlier today but apparently didn't have anything to say to this thread. How surprising.

-k

[ZenOps]

Of course China cares for our nation.

Without Canada - China would probably be paying closer to European rates for things like oil and gasoline... And there are no Chinese that can afford $11.50 per gallon (there aren't many Canadians that can live at a $3 per litre rate either) So its pretty well in everyones best interest to see Canada producing more resources, British, US, China, everyone except third world nations that haven't yet progressed to need massive amounts of energy to make money.

Britain (UK) seems to have no interest in investing in Canada anymore. One only need look at Oilexco (Funding pulled by Royal Bank of Scotland) which would have otherwise provided a great deal of money for Canada and a great deal of oil to reduce the cost to its citizens - But they pulled out (they didn't have a choice actually as they ran out of money and nearly went insolvent like Citibank when it was 99 cents per share)

BTW: Oilexco hurt Canada Euro oil relations an incredible amount. I mean you don't just give out funding to take it away a day before you are set to pump oil. In many ways it would have been better if they simply stated they did not have the money, or did not intend to see the project to fruition... Royal Bank of Scotland - I swear they are in serious trouble if we should head into a second recession.

At least Chinese money is reliable. Funny money printed US dollars and evaporating Euros will be the end of us if we let it.

Edited January 5, 2010 by ZenOps

[waldo]

Indeed I did. I had thought William Ashley's comments spoke for themselves.

The guy opens his post by saying of Alberta: "Don't they still call Chinese chincs there?"

Are you honestly telling me you need someone to explain you you why this is "profound ignorance"?

simply to continue the amusement over your sensitivity largess... notwithstanding that your continued avoidance of your own back-handed slag toward Ontario/Ontarians is quite telling... no where in your opening reply did you speak explicitly to "racist characterizations" - you may infer it by quoting the OP, but you don't explicitly define/label it... you simply term it "profound ignorance"... then... in subsequent reply you speak generally to "racist characterizations" - without application! What are you dancing around? Why stop at "profound ignorance"... if you want to state someone has offered a racist characterization by asking a question... then explicitly do so - define/label it.

Perhaps, but that would be pure speculation. The only solid information Kinsella provides about the neo-Nazis and Heritage Front infiltrating the Reform Party is that they were "mostly in the Greater Toronto Area".

Buffing out his attack on Albertans by providing us evidence of neo-Nazi activity in Toronto is most ingenious!

re-playing your own quote back on you highlights the "mostly" attachment, which generalizes to speak to the Heritage Front at large... as there is/was an Alberta chapter... your choosing to narrow that generalization specifically to Ontario is... mostly... your personal prerogative that aligns with your personal sensitivities.

Nice crop of the quote, but no. He's not saying supporters of neo-Nazis will be furious. He's saying the supporters of this government are neo-Nazis who'll be furious to have Chinese bosses:

Doesn't it sting albertans to know that Canada sold out athabasca to the Chinese?

Their NeoNazi supporters

must be furrious knowing that they will be working for their Chinese Bosses.

It's obvious what he's getting at here. Sure, maybe his shoddy writing skills would leave some doubt as to what he's trying to say, except that his prejudice is so clearly stated in the opening line of the message, which was, again: "Don't they still call Chinese chincs there?"

A quote is a quote. What kind of a quote? It's a quote. A quote is a quote. And when you have a good quote, it's because ... even instant replay doesn't support the obviousness of your obvious!

If the argument is equally applicable to a white person, how is it a racist argument?

are whites not susceptible to racism? In any case you should read the quote from the linked article again... I believe it speaks to a counter suggestion that if not directly racist, the Conservative attack ad "fueled racism". That ad did specifically characterize degrees of Canadian... that might open some to question whether their personal situation afforded them the 'luxury' of being a preferred Canadian as defined by Conservatives.

Well beyond what's actually stated, my ass. The guy's prejudice and ignorance are clearly stated in his message. It's obvious he was trying to write a slam piece and provoke a reaction, and, he got one. He was posting earlier today but apparently didn't have anything to say to this thread. How surprising.

well... given your sensitivity, you did react... and I reacted to your reaction. Mission accomplished

[kimmy]

simply to continue the amusement over your sensitivity largess... notwithstanding that your continued avoidance of your own back-handed slag toward Ontario/Ontarians is quite telling...

Yes, I did offer some provocation, didn't I. However, you'll notice I didn't make a generalization about Ontarions at all. I simply mentioned that I encountered Canadians who were so ignorant about other Canadians was when I lived in Ontario.

And I did live in Ontario for several years, more than long enough to know that a fair number of people there really don't know crap about the rest of the country... the sort of people who think they've been "out west" because they've been to London, and think they've been "up north" because they've been to North Bay.

no where in your opening reply did you speak explicitly to "racist characterizations" - you may infer it by quoting the OP, but you don't explicitly define/label it... you simply term it "profound ignorance"... then... in subsequent reply you speak generally to "racist characterizations" - without application! What are you dancing around? Why stop at "profound ignorance"... if you want to state someone has offered a racist characterization by asking a question... then explicitly do so - define/label it.

If you wish to posit that Ashley was asking an honest question seeking an answer, then I wish to posit that you're an imbecile. If you insist on having the obvious spelled out for you "explicitly", then here it is:

"Don't they still call Chinese chincs there?" was a rhetorical question intended to convey the speaker's belief that Albertans are racists.

Happy now?

I termed it "profound ignorance", and profound ignorance it is.

re-playing your own quote back on you highlights the "mostly" attachment, which generalizes to speak to the Heritage Front at large... as there is/was an Alberta chapter... your choosing to narrow that generalization specifically to Ontario is... mostly... your personal prerogative that aligns with your personal sensitivities.

Ashley trotted out the article in an attempt to substantiate his argument that Albertans are racists... and got his ass owned.

A quote is a quote. What kind of a quote? It's a quote. A quote is a quote. And when you have a good quote, it's because ... even instant replay doesn't support the obviousness of your obvious!

Amusing, but misguided. Sure, you could try to argue that Ashley is so illiterate that it's hard to guess what he's actually trying to say, but Ashley's intentions are made clear by his own remarks.

are whites not susceptible to racism?

Well, according to most progressives, no, whites are not subject to racism.

However, that's beside the point. The point was that if an argument can be made in regard to someone irregardless of their race, then it's clearly not based on racism.

In any case you should read the quote from the linked article again... I believe it speaks to a counter suggestion that if not directly racist, the Conservative attack ad "fueled racism". That ad did specifically characterize degrees of Canadian... that might open some to question whether their personal situation afforded them the 'luxury' of being a preferred Canadian as defined by Conservatives.

If someone were to declare themselves a candidate to be Prime Minister within a few months of arriving in Canada, I would expect their degree of "Canadianness" would indeed be a topic of discussion, regardless of their race or religion or ethnic background. Particularly if, as in Ignatieff's case, there were the strong appearance that the opportunity to become Prime Minister was the only reason for their sudden arrival here.

Attempts to spin it into an attack on "people of colour" is just ridiculous, as are your attempts to excuse Mr Ashley's idiocy.

-k

[waldo]

Yes, I did offer some provocation, didn't I. However, you'll notice I didn't make a generalization about Ontarions at all. I simply mentioned that I encountered Canadians who were so ignorant about other Canadians was when I lived in Ontario.

and yet... no one jumped aboard to challenge your "profound ignorance"... no matter how you'd like to (now) spin your denigration of Ontario/Ontarians. Apparently, the sensitivities of others are less pronounced - than yours.

If you wish to posit that Ashley was asking an honest question seeking an answer, then I wish to posit that you're an imbecile. If you insist on having the obvious spelled out for you "explicitly", then here it is:

"Don't they still call Chinese chincs there?" was a rhetorical question intended to convey the speaker's belief that Albertans are racists.

Happy now?

I termed it "profound ignorance", and profound ignorance it is.

my, as you say, "posit", was you belatedly called "racist characterization" without defining what you deemed as "racist characterization". Now, several posts later, you finally do so. Ms. Obvious could have... should have... done so from the onset.

Ashley trotted out the article in an attempt to substantiate his argument that Albertans are racists... and got his ass owned.

how is substantiation realized when the OP itself, directly after the linked article, states "sure they got rid of them" - as in rid the Reform Party of neo-Nazis ... what kind of racist substantiation is that... in your assessment - obvious, or otherwise?

Amusing, but misguided. Sure, you could try to argue that Ashley is so illiterate that it's hard to guess what he's actually trying to say, but Ashley's intentions are made clear by his own remarks.

I'm not arguing for anyone's intentions - I'm simply referencing the written word and interpretations therein, some of which reflect on greater sensitivities held by some - held by you.

Well, according to most progressives, no, whites are not subject to racism.

However, that's beside the point. The point was that if an argument can be made in regard to someone irregardless of their race, then it's clearly not based on racism.

If someone were to declare themselves a candidate to be Prime Minister within a few months of arriving in Canada, I would expect their degree of "Canadianness" would indeed be a topic of discussion, regardless of their race or religion or ethnic background. Particularly if, as in Ignatieff's case, there were the strong appearance that the opportunity to become Prime Minister was the only reason for their sudden arrival here.

Attempts to spin it into an attack on "people of colour" is just ridiculous, as are your attempts to excuse Mr Ashley's idiocy.

a targeted attack ad that purposely works to define degrees of Canadian, certainly could be argued to fuel racism, if those degrees are predicated on "being defined and labeled a foreigner"... given... many foreigners are, as you say, "people of colour". You can continue to attempt to personalize - I will continue to state I'm neither, as you say, "arguing for anyone's intentions"... or, as you say, "excusing (your perceived) idiocy". As I said, I'm simply referencing the written word and interpretations therein, some of which reflect on greater sensitivities held by some - held by you.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

That's a stupid term "foreign investment" - what investment? What true caring heart does China have for our nation? This is pillaging and our seniour tribal leaders selling our future for next to nothing that will ensure the future of China while degrading our own. What do you think China will do as far as keeping things tidy once they take more control of the operation in Alberta..do you think they will care about the spread of cancer and other diseases amongst our Canadian population in close proximity of industry? No f**king way - they kill their own for profit and power and harming us will not bother them much...Look at the area around even Orangeville Ontario - China has bought up huge tracks of farm land and wet land - they plan long term--do you think they are going to respect his area? They do not respect their own natural resources let alone ours - There are but a few that benefit though these types of sales and it is not the average or even above average Canadian - just the billionares who get a kick out of abusing us.

First of all, foreign investment is a term for all forms of investment other than domestic. In real terms most of the investment in Alberta is American, but not all. China is as free to invest here as any other nation and my point was that all investment other than domestic is actually problematic for us. There was a time when we had no other choice, but times have changed. In a very real sense we no longer have the option to continue to sit back and watch others develop our land to their profit and our detriment. It s time to act, and start doing what needs to be done for our own sake. This is not to say foreign investment is bad, it is to say that it would be more beneficial for us to do it ourselves.

[kimmy]

and yet... no one jumped aboard to challenge your "profound ignorance"... no matter how you'd like to (now) spin your denigration of Ontario/Ontarians. Apparently, the sensitivities of others are less pronounced - than yours.

Someone could, if they wished to do so. However, I chose my words carefully, to make sure that they weren't an attack on Ontarians in general.

my, as you say, "posit", was you belatedly called "racist characterization" without defining what you deemed as "racist characterization". Now, several posts later, you finally do so. Ms. Obvious could have... should have... done so from the onset.

Only an idiot would have needed it explained to them. I am not sure what you feel you have gained by insisting on having it spelled out for you.

how is substantiation realized when the OP itself, directly after the linked article, states "sure they got rid of them" - as in rid the Reform Party of neo-Nazis ... what kind of racist substantiation is that... in your assessment - obvious, or otherwise?

All you're arguing here is that William Ashley is really bad at what he does. We're already in agreement on that point.

a targeted attack ad that purposely works to define degrees of Canadian, certainly could be argued to fuel racism, if those degrees are predicated on "being defined and labeled a foreigner"... given... many foreigners are, as you say, "people of colour".

By this kind of logic, an ad criticizing a politician's level of education would be racist too, since many "people of colour" do not achieve university educations.

-k

[William Ashley]

In regard to Albertan Racsism - I had heard recently about the profiling of bouncers of asians entering bars/clubs in Alberta, also

Articles like

http://www.canada.com/news/Alberta+worries+about+becoming+racist+haven/1420206/story.html

groups like

Alberta White Pride Warriors (AWPW)

occurences such as

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/albertavotes2008/story/2008/02/24/sign-racism.html

I could list other things also, but there are just a few occurences.

The Aryan Gaurd in Alberta was so radicalized it was making explosives.

Although I should state that white price does not automatically = racsism, it may be a portal to more radicalized individuals who do promote racsism.

Edited January 5, 2010 by William Ashley

[waldo]

Someone could, if they wished to do so. However, I chose my words carefully, to make sure that they weren't an attack on Ontarians in general.

were those the same words you self-described as being offered "provocatively"? What was the rationale for your provocative intent and who was it targeted towards... you know, the rationale that couldn't be associated with your own "profound ignorance" labeling?

Only an idiot would have needed it explained to them. I am not sure what you feel you have gained by insisting on having it spelled out for you.

your personalization is only exceeded by your presumption of the obvious... Ms. Obvious. If you're going to take the time/effort to shout "racial categorization", you could... you should... define that shout. You appear to have narrowed it down to what you called a "rhetorical question". Here's another one for you - if you spin an Albertan of Oriental descent around several times, does he become disorientated? Oh my, have I just dissed Oriental Albertans?

All you're arguing here is that William Ashley is really bad at what he does. We're already in agreement on that point.

no, again, I wasn't arguing for anyone - as I've stated, now several times, I was simply following the written word. As I stated, there can't be the failed substantiation you claim, when the following written word, in itself, appears to deny an intended ploy to substantiate. In any case, your much asked/challenged for reply from the OP has surfaced... perhaps you'll have more to sensitize over now.

By this kind of logic, an ad criticizing a politician's level of education would be racist too, since many "people of colour" do not achieve university educations.

I think you're almost there... if that ad so categorized degrees of Canadianism with "foreigner" labeling based on education. Do you subscribe to the belief that a Canadian of recent "foreign" origin, one with less education that a multi-generational "non-foreign" Canadian, is less a Canadian? Do you subscribe to the belief that there are degrees of being a Canadian? If not, I would think you wouldn't be in favour of Conservative attack ads that used that premise.

[Michael Hardner]

I think W. Ashley asked a leading question that revealed a prejudice about Alberta as a backwards racist province, and that Kimmy's point about racist groups in Ontario was provided only as a counterpoint to that.

Waldo seems to be cheering for the team here in bending over backwards to defend WA, in my opinion.

[kimmy]

He speaks!

In regard to Albertan Racsism - I had heard recently about the profiling of bouncers of asians entering bars/clubs in Alberta, also

Incidents of racial profiling prove that Albertans are racists? Seems to me that racial profiling is constant news emanating from Toronto, so I guess Torontonians must be the biggest racists in all of Canada.

Articles like

http://www.canada.com/news/Alberta+worries+about+becoming+racist+haven/1420206/story.html

groups like

Alberta White Pride Warriors (AWPW)

occurences such as

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/albertavotes2008/story/2008/02/24/sign-racism.html

I could list other things also, but there are just a few occurences.

Hey, I can find articles about fringe groups of racists and white supremacists in Ontario too (you just provided us one the other day!) so I guess Ontarians are racists and white supremacists too. Why aren't you trolling Ontarians?

I thought "progressives" were supposed to understand that it's wrong to base generalizations about groups of people on cherry-picked data and isolated incidents. Yet you're doing exactly that here. You're no different than somebody who makes generalizations about all Muslims based on the actions of suicide bombers.

You might think you're different, but you aren't.

You're not actually a "progressive" at all.

-k