Canadian government has little control of its borders

[Argus]

Noted in passing, that, as expected, all the illegal migrants from Sri Lanka have been released into the wild, so to speak, despite some very strong suspicions many of them are former fighters for the outlawed terrorist group the Tamil Tigers. The laws in Canada are simply not capable of keeping suspicious foreigners in prison without absolute proof, and the kind that can be set out in open court, of their guilt. Not, at least, in the face of the determination by mostly bleeding heart Liberal appointed judges that their mandate is to keep people out of prison, not protect the public. Even if the courts do find them to be terrorists they still won't allow them to remain in custody indefinitely, and won't allow them to be deported if their country of origin might not treat them with the proper respect and dignity the courts feel they deserve.

We can add this to the extreme difficulty of deporting ANYONE from Canada, regardless of proof of their criminal status. It can often take years, sometimes more than a decade to run through the endless string of appeals and objections from their lawyers (who we pay for).

We know we have little control of our actual borders either. The Ports Police were abolished by Paul Martin Junior, the part time prime minister and full time shipping magnate - one of whose ships was later found smuggling cocaine. Since then a series of reports have stated Canadian shipping ports are almost entirely controlled by the mob. Canadian airports have long had a problem with security as most of their security guards are minimum wage rent-a-cops with little experience, training, motivation, education or, for that matter, language skills - most being immigrants. And Canadian border points are a sieve for smuggling drugs, guns and people, especially the native reserves that straddle the border. As for our coastlines, the Coast Guard and navy are perpetually undermanned, underequipped and underfunded.

I think that, to start with, we need to pass new laws dealing with illegal immigrants and criminal immigrants in Canada, and then remove these laws from the oversight of the courts or constitution using the opt-out clause. It is quite clear by now that the courts have no interest in the protection of the public, and will oppose any efforts at protecting our borders, and given how poorly constructed the Charter is, I don't know that it's possible to ever pass a law which the judges would not find a way around.

Illegal migrants need to be put in detention camps until their claims have either been approved or denied, and in the latter case, deported back to their country of origin. We also need more money for the coast guard and more money for border services and the RMCP to patrol along our southern borders and to put up check points around native reserves which have, let's face it, become lawless zones controlled by criminals.

[William Ashley]

We know we have little control of our actual borders either.

False

The Ports Police were abolished by Paul Martin Junior, the part time prime minister and full time shipping magnate - one of whose ships was later found smuggling cocaine.

My gosh first the former head of the Conservative caucus and now martin - am I seeing a trend...

Since then a series of reports have stated Canadian shipping ports are almost entirely controlled by the mob.

Evidence?

Canadian airports have long had a problem with security as most of their security guards are minimum wage rent-a-cops with little experience, training, motivation, education or, for that matter, language skills - most being immigrants.

Citation please?

And Canadian border points are a sieve for smuggling drugs, guns and people, especially the native reserves that straddle the border.

Evidence?

As for our coastlines, the Coast Guard and navy are perpetually undermanned, underequipped and underfunded.

What do they do again? Last I heard they were in the gulf - that is the Persian gulf.

I think that, to start with, we need to pass new laws dealing with illegal immigrants and criminal immigrants in Canada, and then remove these laws from the oversight of the courts or constitution using the opt-out clause.

OK, and where is the evidence of their criminal background? Also if 1 in 10 Canadians has a criminal record and they are allowed here, why arn't other countries petty criminals?

It is quite clear by now that the courts have no interest in the protection of the public

Really, why?

and will oppose any efforts at protecting our borders, and given how poorly constructed the Charter is, I don't know that it's possible to ever pass a law which the judges would not find a way around.

Such as?

Illegal migrants need to be put in detention camps until their claims have either been approved or denied

There are detention camps in Canada.

, and in the latter case, deported back to their country of origin.

This is what happens.

We also need more money for the coast guard

For what?

and more money for border services and the RMCP to patrol along our southern borders

Why not just call in the military and let them do it.. you know integrity of Canada. Theres a few thousand in Afghanistan that could be used.

and to put up check points around native reserves which have, let's face it, become lawless zones controlled by criminals.

Evidence?

[bill_barilko]

Argus-you worry too much and should take a vacation from the Trailer Park where you've spent so much of your life.

[Argus]

Argus-you worry too much and should take a vacation from the Trailer Park where you've spent so much of your life.

I live in a very nice upper middle class neighbourhood of detached houses, actually. Maybe if you ever get out of your mom's basement and get that acne problem under control you'll get a job and start worrying about more than your video games.

[Argus]

False

Evidence?

Citation please?

Evidence?

OK, and where is the evidence of their criminal background?

Really, why?

Such as?

For what?

Evidence?

Sorry, but even if I hadn't already marked you as kind of wacked out I wouldn't be willing to spend an afternoon researching cites in order to provide you with "evidence" of what is, for the most part, common knowledge. Nor have I ever been a fan of the Socratic debating tactic of simply asking questions - especially when they're dumb questions.

[Michael Hardner]

Illegal migrants need to be put in detention camps until their claims have either been approved or denied, and in the latter case, deported back to their country of origin. We also need more money for the coast guard and more money for border services and the RMCP to patrol along our southern borders and to put up check points around native reserves which have, let's face it, become lawless zones controlled by criminals.

Including Americans ? That's not really going to fly. Just migrants from Muslim nations ?

I don't think you need to cite the obvious, but surely you can provide some evidence that we need to do something.

[Argus]

Including Americans ? That's not really going to fly. Just migrants from Muslim nations ?

I don't think you need to cite the obvious, but surely you can provide some evidence that we need to do something.

All illegals, from whatever source country. Why would that not fly? If we can't force them out immediately, and they refuse to go voluntarily, why should we not have the right to put them into detention facilities until the issue at hand is resolved?

I think it's fairly obvious in that we cannot keep foreigners who we suspect might be a danger to the public in prison, even though they came here illegally or under false pretenses, and we can't make them leave if they don't want to if the judges determine their home countries might be rude to them. The Sri Lankans are only the latest indication of this. We also have the continued judicial undermining of security certificates, freeing people which even the judges know shouldn't be here. We also know that the majority of restricted firearms used by criminals come across the border, and we know there native reserves are a major source of that.

[Michael Hardner]

All illegals, from whatever source country. Why would that not fly?

Why would Americans object to their citizens being put into detention camps ? I don't know how to answer that other than to say I'm pretty sure that they would object.

If we can't force them out immediately, and they refuse to go voluntarily, why should we not have the right to put them into detention facilities until the issue at hand is resolved?

We can do whatever we like.

I think it's fairly obvious in that we cannot keep foreigners who we suspect might be a danger to the public in prison, even though they came here illegally or under false pretenses, and we can't make them leave if they don't want to if the judges determine their home countries might be rude to them. The Sri Lankans are only the latest indication of this. We also have the continued judicial undermining of security certificates, freeing people which even the judges know shouldn't be here. We also know that the majority of restricted firearms used by criminals come across the border, and we know there native reserves are a major source of that.

I don't think it's obvious that we can't do that, only that we may not do it properly in all situations. In any case, let's see if the Harper government has a comment on it - I don't think we should be condemning them until we know more.

Also, keep in mind that just because someone was a Tamil Tiger, doesn't mean they're a threat to Canadians. We have accepted refugees who fought for our side and other side in regional wars such as El Salvador, Lebanon or the United States.

[bush_cheney2004]

Why would Americans object to their citizens being put into detention camps ? I don't know how to answer that other than to say I'm pretty sure that they would object.

Why would "they" object? The United States detains and deports Canadian illegals all the time...just ask Muher Arar!

We can do whatever we like.

Indeed....see "Security Certificates" and "Millhaven prison facilities".

[William Ashley]

Maybe it is just a cost issue, they arn't deemed a security risk to Canada, and it is easier to have them on an honour basis for the time being. Heck maybe they can get jobs as sea transport workers or fishermen, especially if they managed to sail all the way from Sri Lanka.

[Keepitsimple]

Argus.....I agree with your main point - it's takes forever and sometimes it's impossible to deport non-Canadians who arrived illegally, fraudulently applied, or have committed crimes. Years and years of appeals, hundreds of thousands of taxpayer-funded dollars. The sad part is that huge numbers of honest, law-abiding people are waiting to come to Canada legally.....and for every cheater who scams the system, one future law-abiding citizen fails to get in. It's a travesty why under most situations, we can't just put these people on a plane or boat and send them back where they came from. It's frustrating and maddening.

[Wild Bill]

Sorry, but even if I hadn't already marked you as kind of wacked out I wouldn't be willing to spend an afternoon researching cites in order to provide you with "evidence" of what is, for the most part, common knowledge. Nor have I ever been a fan of the Socratic debating tactic of simply asking questions - especially when they're dumb questions.

Angus, it constantly amazes me the number of people who apparently don't read newspapers or listen to the news on radio or tv yet will attempt a political debate in a sneering, pontificating manner, demanding their opponent prove what everyone has witnessed for years and years.

It's like an adolescent who thinks that history began with his own birth.

Just unbelievable!

[Jerry J. Fortin]

We have immense borders to watch. We can't even watch them, let alone defend them.

[Argus]

We have immense borders to watch. We can't even watch them, let alone defend them.

Not perfectly, but at the very least we can do something about those we catch entering illegally, rather than simply releasing them and hoping they show up for their hearings. Many disappear before their first hearing. I guarantee you that some of these Sri Lankans will be caught trying to enter the US - their real destination - and that is one of the major reasons why Canadians find it much more time-consuming to cross the border now than it used to be. Lots of "refugees" come here because they know we'll simply let them in as soon as they say the magic word "refugee" and then they head for the US border. Others disapear into the streets and we never see them again, so don't know what befell them. Even in the cases, such as this, where the government has strong suspicions about the violent histories of individuals the courts won't let us keep them in custody.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Not perfectly, but at the very least we can do something about those we catch entering illegally, rather than simply releasing them and hoping they show up for their hearings. Many disappear before their first hearing. I guarantee you that some of these Sri Lankans will be caught trying to enter the US - their real destination - and that is one of the major reasons why Canadians find it much more time-consuming to cross the border now than it used to be. Lots of "refugees" come here because they know we'll simply let them in as soon as they say the magic word "refugee" and then they head for the US border. Others disapear into the streets and we never see them again, so don't know what befell them. Even in the cases, such as this, where the government has strong suspicions about the violent histories of individuals the courts won't let us keep them in custody.

There are lots of things we can do, yet they are all political complications to the existing structure. We need a moral and ethical approach to this and other problems that seem to scare the hell out of the politicians.

[wyly]

I can accept there are real refugees who fear for their lives but I'm also uneasy allowing people in who will continue to wage their war from our country and in our country(air India bombing)against other Canadians...the issue is how do we seperate those who need protection from those who we need protection from?...

I don't foresee a simple solution for this...

boatloads of illegal cue jumpers arriving by ship, lock'em up until they've cleared all procedures...

[bloodyminded]

Why would "they" object? The United States detains and deports Canadian illegals all the time...just ask Muher Arar!

What would Mahir Arar know about being an "illegal?

[g_bambino]

The laws in Canada are simply not capable of keeping suspicious foreigners in prison without absolute proof, and the kind that can be set out in open court, of their guilt. Illegal migrants need to be put in detention camps until their claims have either been approved or denied, and in the latter case, deported back to their country of origin.

The crux of this issue is where to place the line between those who receive rights and those who don't; are all human beings, regardless of their citizenship, accorded the same rights within Canada's borders? Or are only those with citizenship given rights and all others be damned? A certain part of me agrees that too many undesirable immigrants and refugees remain here simply because they get lost in a very lax system. On the other hand, though, a person shouldn't be imprisoned simply because they come from somewhere else.

[bush_cheney2004]

What would Mahir Arar know about being an "illegal?

Mr. Arar would know that it is not wise to book a connecting flight in New York as a listed terrorist perp, as deportation via immigration law is not only possible, but quite probable.

[Argus]

The crux of this issue is where to place the line between those who receive rights and those who don't; are all human beings, regardless of their citizenship, accorded the same rights within Canada's borders? Or are only those with citizenship given rights and all others be damned? A certain part of me agrees that too many undesirable immigrants and refugees remain here simply because they get lost in a very lax system. On the other hand, though, a person shouldn't be imprisoned simply because they come from somewhere else.

Illegally. Don't forget that part. And they always have the option of simply going home.

[bloodyminded]

Mr. Arar would know that it is not wise to book a connecting flight in New York as a listed terrorist perp, as deportation via immigration law is not only possible, but quite probable.

Mr Arar clearly didn't know it was probable, because we can assume he didn't wish to be tortured by the Syrians.

Also--the main point here--he was never an "illegal" as you implied. Perhaps you could research topics before exposing your lack of knowledge about them.

[bush_cheney2004]

Mr Arar clearly didn't know it was probable, because we can assume he didn't wish to be tortured by the Syrians.

You assume a lot of things.

Also--the main point here--he was never an "illegal" as you implied. Perhaps you could research topics before exposing your lack of knowledge about them.

Mr. Arar is on a US no-fly list....he is most certainly aware of such legalities....then...and now. Perhaps you could focus more on reality.

[bloodyminded]

You assume a lot of things.

Right. I assume Arar didn't think he would be tortured in Syria.

You assume he did. See, that's also an assumption. A stupid one.

[bush_cheney2004]

Right. I assume Arar didn't think he would be tortured in Syria.

You assume he did. See, that's also an assumption. A stupid one.

I didn't assume anything....but you're on a roll so what the hell. More! More!

[Jerry J. Fortin]

I didn't assume anything....but you're on a roll so what the hell. More! More!

The Arar issue troubles me. The man was innocent, yet handed over and tortured. In his case I would sue all the governments involved, period.