Canadian politicians - the culture killer

[bjre]

This statement just further illustrates that you don't know what science really is. To compare science or modern medicine to 'religion' is absurd.

Sorry, the tests for lots of Chinese Traditional Medicine is from huge amount of successful practice on human beings for hundreds of years or thousands of years, not on rats like western "scientific" methods.

For the western medicine, let's look at this phenomenon:

http://198.83.120.7/SocialSciences/ppecorino/MEDICAL_ETHICS_TEXT/Chapter_3_Moral_Climate_of_Health_Care/Reading-Death-Rate-Doctor-Strike.htm

or google "Death Rate Drops During Doctor Strike "

DOCTORS ON STRIKE

Whenever medical doctors go on strike, a most interesting phenomenon occurs - death rates go down! In 1976 in Bogota, Columbia medical doctors went on strike for 52 days, with only emergency care available. The death rate dropped by 35%. In 1976 in Los Angeles County a similar doctors' strike resulted in an 18% drop in mortality. As soon as the strike was over, the death rate went back to normal. A 50% decrease in mortality occurred in Israel in 1973 when there was a

one month doctor's strike!

Edited December 5, 2009 by bjre

[whowhere]

You should also be aware that any medical treatment with utility can subject itself to peer review after studies are conducted. If there are medical treatments in traditional Chinese medicine that are worthwhile, they can prove themselves through research and review. Nobody is excluded from the scientific community.

That's what I was getting at. They should have an opportunity to convince and prove their treatments.

[Guest TrueMetis]

So how you can prove western medicine are more "scientific", what is the difference between it and voodoo magic or garbage? If it is so scientific, why new medicine still need to pass a lot of tests?

Because that's how science works in order for something to be proven to work it has to test repeatable tests.

Lots of traditional Chinese medicine do passed huge amount of tests long before modern western medicine exist.

Then it shoud be able to pass ours.

It is still curing lots of Chinese in China nowadays more than the population of Canada.

Prove it.

Sorry, the tests for lots of Chinese Traditional Medicine is from huge amount of successful practice on human beings for hundreds of years or thousands of years, not on rats like western "scientific" methods.

Once again prove it.

For the western medicine, let's look at this phenomenon:

http://198.83.120.7/...ctor-Strike.htm

or google "Death Rate Drops During Doctor Strike "

Correlation does not imply causation.

I think it is not bad idea to allow African witch doctors to practice medicine, if anyone is willing to go, let them go, if they make things worse, sue them. Need not to support them with tax.

And let all doctors from all nations practice medicine, sue them when they cause trouble.

And if they die?

And the very important is sue Health Canada if they made mistake, currently it is impossible because they are too strong, even when people die on bed in hospital, no one take charge. (Medical errors killing up to 24,000 Canadians a year, http://www.cbc.ca/he...rors040609.html)

Wish I could site how many people die in China from that type of thing but the Chinese government isn't exactly keen on letting that kind of data out.

Health Canada is the place where more than 5 thousand dollars goes from each Canadian each year.

Source?

Just like telecommunication is very expansive and has very bad quality in Africa, you pay a lot does not necessary mean you get good service.

Yea exactly like Africa... except it is exactly the opposite. Canadians enjoy great healthcare.

The reason is they have no competitors. That is the reason for all poor services in Canada.

They compete with the U.S. and service in Canada is some of the best in the world.

They have power who can make laws to ensure they can dominate the market and don't let any others enter the market.

No only the Government can do that. Neither Doctors nor Health Canada have that power.

That's what I was getting at. They should have an opportunity to convince and prove their treatments.

They do they just don't try because they know they can't pass the tests. Like the assholes selling the Silver and touting it as a cure for Cancers and the like. Then the person taking it turns blue and dies.

Edited December 5, 2009 by TrueMetis

[Gabriel]

That's what I was getting at. They should have an opportunity to convince and prove their treatments.

And they DO have the opportunity. If a company wants to release a product for the a particular illness or condition, or to do something where there is some sort of medical claim attached, it must adhere to rigorous standards. If there are treatments and protocols in traditional Chinese medicine that have utility, proponents of the treatment of protocol are welcome to do the research and follow the steps necessary for the release of the product. The reality is, though, that there probably is few to no worthwhile treatments or protocols in Chinese medicine. It's mostly hocus pocus. People like bjre, on the other hand, would try to tell us otherwise.

If anything, I find Canada too lenient with snake oil salespeople. I agree with bjre in one way, that we should just sue troublemakers. On the other hand, though, I have no problem with outright banning some liars and idiots who exploit the desperate and uninformed. From practitioners of witchcraft to scum like Kevin Trudeau. I guess the problem is - once you start banning some bullshit, where do you stop? Go to any Chapters and I'm certain at least half of the stuff in the 'health and wellness' section is questionable, at best.

Edited December 5, 2009 by Gabriel

[Gabriel]

Seriously, folks... bjre just isn't worth talking to about these matters. He's so off-base it's not even funny.

[whowhere]

And they DO have the opportunity. If a company wants to release a product for the a particular illness or condition, or to do something where there is some sort of medical claim attached, it must adhere to rigorous standards. If there are treatments and protocols in traditional Chinese medicine that have utility, proponents of the treatment of protocol are welcome to do the research and follow the steps necessary for the release of the product. The reality is, though, that there probably is few to no worthwhile treatments or protocols in Chinese medicine. It's mostly hocus pocus. People like bjre, on the other hand, would try to tell us otherwise.

If anything, I find Canada too lenient with snake oil salespeople. I agree with bjre in one way, that we should just sue troublemakers. On the other hand, though, I have no problem with outright banning some liars and idiots who exploit the desperate and uninformed. From practitioners of witchcraft to scum like Kevin Trudeau. I guess the problem is - once you start banning some bullshit, where do you stop? Go to any Chapters and I'm certain at least half of the stuff in the 'health and wellness' section is questionable, at best.

I actually have a personal experience with so called modern medicine. Depending how old you are and how crooked your dentist/hygenist is, you may be led down the road of a severe gum infection. The treatment usually to set you up for a root canal and or expensive gum grafts to repair the negligence of ill advice. The fact is I had a gum infection because the gum in the front of the tooth developed a "pocket." I flossed but the flossing technique did not get the front of the tooth. The dentists are crooked bunch and they are more about churning examination and xray charges then fix the infection. After repeated visits to medical doctors and put on antibiotics several times and cortesoid of sorts (all modern medicine) in the end you know what fixed and cured my gum Infection?

So called hocus pocus remedies, tea trea oil straight up and agressive brushing of my teeth to desentize them and agressively brushing my gums as well. Now my teeth and gums are somewhat strong and solid. The greeks had alot of herbal remedies that were lost in the shuffle of time. The Eygyptions practice Herbal and other remedies that have also been lost. The fact is history is evolutionary and it doesn't hurt to open your ears and give an alternate a try it may be the "real" solution.

Any viewers, heed this post, do not trust dentists, and learn how to brush and floss your teeth!!!

[Gabriel]

I actually have a personal experience with so called modern medicine. Depending how old you are and how crooked your dentist/hygenist is, you may be led down the road of a severe gum infection. The treatment usually to set you up for a root canal and or expensive gum grafts to repair the negligence of ill advice. The fact is I had a gum infection because the gum in the front of the tooth developed a "pocket." I flossed but the flossing technique did not get the front of the tooth. The dentists are crooked bunch and they are more about churning examination and xray charges then fix the infection. After repeated visits to medical doctors and put on antibiotics several times and cortesoid of sorts (all modern medicine) in the end you know what fixed and cured my gum Infection?

So called hocus pocus remedies, tea trea oil straight up and agressive brushing of my teeth to desentize them and agressively brushing my gums as well. Now my teeth and gums are somewhat strong and solid. The greeks had alot of herbal remedies that were lost in the shuffle of time. The Eygyptions practice Herbal and other remedies that have also been lost. The fact is history is evolutionary and it doesn't hurt to open your ears and give an alternate a try it may be the "real" solution.

Any viewers, heed this post, do not trust dentists, and learn how to brush and floss your teeth!!!

Your whole post is completely irrelevant. What does your anecdote about a previous and apparently dentist have to do with anything? Perhaps dentists and other professionals occasionally behave unethically, abusing the trust of their patients/clients by recommending unnecessary services in order to increase revenues. This has nothing to do with the philosophy of science, or Health Canada's regulation of various industries (i.e. natural health products, prescription medicines, and even traditional Chinese medicine).

Tea tree oil has been proven to be a strong disinfectant, so it isn't a hocus pocus remedy (i.e. most traditional Chinese medicine). Tea tree oil isn't traditional Chinese medicine, either (it's only available from the eucalyptus plant, which I think is only indigenous to Australia and/or New Zealand).

With respect to flossing, when you say 'aggressive', I sure hope you are referring to frequency and not to brushing technique. Aggressively brushing your gums, forcefully and abrasively, is a BAD IDEA. That'd probably explain why you may have recessed gums. Anyways cheers, this thread is now officially off-topic and beyond pointless. I'll happily continue a thread where we discuss ridiculous health trends and regulation. I'm down for some chiropractic-bashing. Let's also trash homeopaths and naturopaths who portray themselves as doctors and prey on the desperate and ignorant.

[whowhere]

Your whole post is completely irrelevant. What does your anecdote about a previous and apparently dentist have to do with anything? Perhaps dentists and other professionals occasionally behave unethically, abusing the trust of their patients/clients by recommending unnecessary services in order to increase revenues. This has nothing to do with the philosophy of science, or Health Canada's regulation of various industries (i.e. natural health products, prescription medicines, and even traditional Chinese medicine).

Tea tree oil has been proven to be a strong disinfectant, so it isn't a hocus pocus remedy (i.e. most traditional Chinese medicine). Tea tree oil isn't traditional Chinese medicine, either (it's only available from the eucalyptus plant, which I think is only indigenous to Australia and/or New Zealand).

With respect to flossing, when you say 'aggressive', I sure hope you are referring to frequency and not to brushing technique. Aggressively brushing your gums, forcefully and abrasively, is a BAD IDEA. That'd probably explain why you may have recessed gums. Anyways cheers, this thread is now officially off-topic and beyond pointless. I'll happily continue a thread where we discuss ridiculous health trends and regulation. I'm down for some chiropractic-bashing. Let's also trash homeopaths and naturopaths who portray themselves as doctors and prey on the desperate and ignorant.

Tea tree oil and brushing the gums is not recommended treatment but that was the cure. The dentist are trying to set you up for root canels or expensive periodontist gum grafts. What makes doctors who stall diagonisis to churn repeat business and the auto-perscription for drugs that will not solve the problem. the fact is, you can't rule out alternatives, whether its chinese methods, herbs, or whatever.

[bjre]

It is still curing lots of Chinese in China nowadays more than the population of Canada.

Prove it.

Report in 2001:

Chinese people see Traditional Chinese Medicine doctors 3.93109 billion times in China in 2001.

There are 2,682 Traditional Chinese Medicine hospitals in China include 279,622 beds (56.73% in use by patients), 423,957 doctors and other workers work in those hospitals.

Source: http://drug.91.cn/zytd/zydt/gndt/157822.htm (In Chinese)

World Health Organization: Traditional Chinese Medicine Could Make “Health for One” True

http://www.who.int/intellectualproperty/studies/Jia.pdf

It has been realized that the effects of TCM have been “field-tested” by tens of thousands of people for hundreds of years. (13) In fact, learning from the history can give people more confidence in terms of “evidence of practice” than any single methodologically rigorous clinical trial, and it is the “evidence of practice” that gives birth to the holism philosophically than scientifically. The knowledge that is correct scientifically is not always useful to the practical therapies of TCM, and thus careful attentions must be put on its holistic medical pattern.

-------------

13 World Health Organization. General Guidelines for Methodologies on Research and Evaluation of Traditional Medicine.

Sorry, the tests for lots of Chinese Traditional Medicine is from huge amount of successful practice on human beings for hundreds of years or thousands of years, not on rats like western "scientific" methods.

Once again prove it.

Prove what? Western study use rats?

For the western medicine, let's look at this phenomenon:

http://198.83.120.7/...ctor-Strike.htm

or google "Death Rate Drops During Doctor Strike "

[/Quote]

Correlation does not imply causation.

[/Quote]

There is inevitability in that.

I think it is not bad idea to allow African witch doctors to practice medicine, if anyone is willing to go, let them go, if they make things worse, sue them. Need not to support them with tax.

And let all doctors from all nations practice medicine, sue them when they cause trouble.

[/Quote]

And if they die?

[/Quote]

Send the doctor to jail. Do the same when Health Canada doctor do that.

And the very important is sue Health Canada if they made mistake, currently it is impossible because they are too strong, even when people die on bed in hospital, no one take charge. (Medical errors killing up to 24,000 Canadians a year, http://www.cbc.ca/he...ors040609.html)

[/Quote]

Wish I could site how many people die in China from that type of thing but the Chinese government isn't exactly keen on letting that kind of data out.

They should send to jail too if they kill people by mistake.

Health Canada is the place where more than 5 thousand dollars goes from each Canadian each year.

[/Quote]

Source?

[/Quote]

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=15415

The reason is they have no competitors. That is the reason for all poor services in Canada.

[/Quote]

They compete with the U.S. and service in Canada is some of the best in the world.

[/Quote]

Is it convenient if you want to see a U.S. doctor in the town you live?

Edited December 5, 2009 by bjre

[bjre]

Seriously, folks... bjre just isn't worth talking to about these matters. He's so off-base it's not even funny.

Why? just because I have make you understand that your faith to the Modern Science actually has no difference with people before Galileo believed that the Earth is the center of the universe?

Edited December 5, 2009 by bjre

[Topaz]

I can't see why is this country can't use "natural" or "Chinese" or whatever you want to call it in conjunction with man-made medication. The reasons I can think of is the lobby groups for the drug companies. How many of us have seen TV commericals about man-made drugs and saw a list of possible side effects? All man-made medications also start with "natural" medications then expand from there.Both types of medication needs to be monitored fairly.

[Guest TrueMetis]

Report in 2001:

Chinese people see Traditional Chinese Medicine doctors 3.93109 billion times in China in 2001.

There are 2,682 Traditional Chinese Medicine hospitals in China include 279,622 beds (56.73% in use by patients), 423,957 doctors and other workers work in those hospitals.

Source: http://drug.91.cn/zytd/zydt/gndt/157822.htm (In Chinese)

World Health Organization: Traditional Chinese Medicine Could Make “Health for One” True

http://www.who.int/intellectualproperty/studies/Jia.pdf

The first one isn't in english so I can't read it.

The second one seems to talk about making new drugs from the same thing TCM uses. Which is interesting but means it has to go through real drug testing.

Prove what? Western study use rats?

That TCM has been proven, give me a double blind study that uses a control.

Send the doctor to jail. Do the same when Health Canada doctor do that.

I'd rather minimize the chance of a person dying through standards. There will always be a risk because doctors are human but that risk is minimized though training. I'd rather go to a real doctor than a charlatan.

http://www.mapleleaf...showtopic=15415

IT doesn't actually say every Canadian will be paying $5000+.

Is it convenient if you want to see a U.S. doctor in the town you live?

couple of hours drive or a plane ticket, but then I'm not willing to pay the amount they do.

[M.Dancer]

and its proven to work....

The vast majority of chinese quackery has not been proven under any recognised clinical tests.

Some tiger penis soup for what ails you?

[bjre]

The vast majority of chinese quackery has not been proven under any recognised clinical tests.

The vast majority of frequently used chinese medicine works very well in curing lots of diseases.

Lots of them have effects to diseases that no western counterpart can do.

The vast majority of western chemical medicine has side effect:

* Abortion, miscarriage or uterine hemorrhage associated with misoprostol (Cytotec), a labor-inducing drug (this is a case where the adverse effect has been used legally and illegally for performing abortions)

* Addiction to many sedatives and analgesics, such as diazepam, morphine, etc.

* Birth defects associated with Thalidomide and isotretinoin (Accutane)

* Bleeding of the intestine associated with aspirin therapy

* Cardiovascular disease associated with COX-2 inhibitors (i.e. Vioxx)

* Deafness and kidney failure associated with gentamicin (an antibiotic)

* Death, following sedation in children using propofol (Diprivan)

* Dementia associated with Coronary artery bypass surgery

* Depression or hepatic injury caused by interferon

* Diabetes caused by atypical antipsychotic medications (neuroleptic psychiatric drugs)

* Diarrhea caused by the use of orlistat (Xenical)

* Erectile dysfunction associated with many drugs, such as antidepressants

* Fever associated with vaccination (in the past, imperfectly manufactured vaccines, such as Bacillus Calmette-Guérin (BCG) and poliomyelitis, have caused the very disease they intended to fight)

* Glaucoma associated with corticosteroid-based eye drops

* Hair loss and anemia may be caused by chemotherapy against cancer, leukemia, etc.

* Headache following spinal anaesthesia

* Hypertension in ephedrine users, which prompted FDA to remove the status of dietary supplement of ephedra extracts

* Insomnia caused by stimulants, methylphenidate (Ritalin), Adderall, etc.

* Lactic acidosis associated with the use of stavudine (Zerit, for anti-HIV therapy) or metformin (for diabetes)

* Liver damage from paracetamol

* Melasma and thrombosis associated with use of estrogen-containing hormonal contraception, such as the combined oral contraceptive pill

* Priapism associaded with the use of sildenafil

* Rhabdomyolysis associated with statins (anti-cholesterol drugs)

* Seizures caused by withdrawal from benzodiazepines

* Drowsiness or increase in appetite due to antihistamine use. Some antihistamines are used in sleep aids explicitly because they cause drowsiness.

* Stroke or heart attack associated with sildenafil (Viagra), when used with nitroglycerin

* Suicide, increased tendency associated to the use of fluoxetine and other selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor (SSRI) antidepressants

* Tardive dyskinesia associated with long-term use of metoclopramide and many antipsychotic medications

Some tiger penis soup for what ails you?

It has been banned since tigers are considered as animal to be protected.

Even not, at least it has no side effect.

[Shwa]

Even not, at least it has no side effect.

Eating tiger penis (or any other penis!) has a severe side effect and will result in a case of the willies.

[cybercoma]

I suppose I should read this entire thread before running my mouth, but there are a couple things that concern me.

First, why would anyone oppose the regulation of the healthcare system and health products? Quite frankly the government should monitor industries that produce anything that's going to be ingested. Ingestible, or even topical for that matter, products can be extremely dangerous. Not only can they seriously harm or kill adults, but what about the effects on children?

Furthermore, the industry needs to be regulated because a medicinal product should have the intended effect that is claimed by the manufacturer. It happens all too often that unregulated manufacturers make wild claims about their "health products" that aren't actually true. Moreover, people may forego necessary traditional medical treatments in favour of some holistic alternative therapy that either doesn't work, or perhaps makes matters worse. It is also the case that many alternative "medicines" react with scientifically proven treatments (St. John's wort for instance).

Quite frankly, if the product works, it should pass testing and the true pharmaceutical industry would capitalize on it immediately. Having an unregulated industry is extremely unpredictable and could have adverse effects for people. Consequently, people may avoid getting real treatments in the hope that a false alternative will eventually work, or worse they may not be able to get the real treatment until the alternative medicine clears their system (in the case where it would react with proper medicine). Unregulated pharmaceuticals and holistic therapies is a ridiculous and dangerous proposition.

[bjre]

Quite frankly, if the product works, it should pass testing and the true pharmaceutical industry would capitalize on it immediately. Having an unregulated industry is extremely unpredictable and could have adverse effects for people.

That is what pharmaceutical industry want, they can increase price 100 times or 10000 times higher than its original natural form and ask you to pay through tax. To do this, they need to dominate market with the help of laws or "regulations".

Consequently, people may avoid getting real treatments in the hope that a false alternative will eventually work, or worse they may not be able to get the real treatment until the alternative medicine clears their system (in the case where it would react with proper medicine).

Under Health Canada's regulation, tens of thousands of life's lost each year. (post #25)

Unregulated pharmaceuticals and holistic therapies is a ridiculous and dangerous proposition.

Regulated hospitals and pharmaceuticals is dangerous. (post #25, #26, #39)

[M.Dancer]

That is what pharmaceutical industry want, they can increase price 100 times or 10000 times higher than its original natural form and ask you to pay through tax.

Clearly you have no idea what you are talking about.

[bjre]

Clearly you have no idea what you are talking about.

If you don't pay it by tax, then you pay it by insurance that will be exploited by 2 industries, or you pay much more when you have to use it.

[Michael Hardner]

I can't see why is this country can't use "natural" or "Chinese" or whatever you want to call it in conjunction with man-made medication. The reasons I can think of is the lobby groups for the drug companies.

There's nothing stopping these companies from submitting to controls, or funding studies to back their claims, however in many cases it's easier to blame a shadowy bogeyman from the drug companies than to submit proof that doesn't exist.

[M.Dancer]

There's nothing stopping these companies from submitting to controls, or funding studies to back their claims, however in many cases it's easier to blame a shadowy bogeyman from the drug companies than to submit proof that doesn't exist.

Quite right. If through stringent clinical testing it can be shown that dried mouse scrotum tea can relieve the effects of old age on the penis, legions will beat a path to their door...

[bjre]

Quite right. If through stringent clinical testing it can be shown that dried mouse scrotum tea can relieve the effects of old age on the penis, legions will beat a path to their door...

It is clear that you know nothing about TCM. Most of TCM medications are from plant instead of from animal.

Edited December 7, 2009 by bjre

[cybercoma]

That is what pharmaceutical industry want, they can increase price 100 times or 10000 times higher than its original natural form and ask you to pay through tax. To do this, they need to dominate market with the help of laws or "regulations".

Source?

Under Health Canada's regulation, tens of thousands of life's lost each year. (post #25)

Source?

Regulated hospitals and pharmaceuticals is dangerous. (post #25, #26, #39)

Source? Or, at the very least, an argument to support your assertion?

Your posts that you refer to have absolutely no references to anything other than a Mandarin newscast. Do you have any information regarding the markup on pharmaceuticals (keeping in mind the cost of research and development)? Furthermore, are you suggesting that lives are not lost in the Chinese medical system? I mean, what a stupid assertion that tens of thousands of lives are lost each year in our system. Do you have any proof that it's due to regulations? I can link you to sources showing that St. John's Wort and other herbal and holistic therapies have caused deaths. And how about the people that don't seek proper medical attention because they believe in some mythical miracle cure?

If you want to make an argument, have a discussion, or debate the subject, do me, yourself, and everyone else a favour and actually back up what you say, or at the very least, put together a logical argument. Your beliefs are not necessarily reality, unless you can show that they are. So far, you have not.

[cybercoma]

It is clear that you know nothing about TCM. Most of TCM medications are from plant instead of from animal.

He was making a sarcastic quip about the type of "medicine". Whether it's from a plant or animal doesn't matter.

[M.Dancer]

He was making a sarcastic quip about the type of "medicine". Whether it's from a plant or animal doesn't matter.

Indeed, if after a stringent clinical testing, the herb known as ephedra was found tpo promote weight loss.....oh never mind...