HST Bad News for Conservatives

[Alta4ever]

Makes me very happy to be an Albertan, not having to worry about another freaking tax!

For now, I'm sure Ed will be finding a creative way to up the taxes as he doesn't seem to understand that he, his cabinate and the rest of his government have a huge spending problem.

[Wild Bill]

It has rightly been said that business will benefit from this new form of taxation, isn't that wonderful! Once again the citizen gets screwed and business gets a nice little break. All in the name of doing the right thing for the economy. That ploy has been well rooted in our political system, it is the very mantra our governments have been preaching to citizens. Oddly some believe it to be true.

The premise seems partly true. Anything that encourages business growth will theoretically add new jobs.

The problem is that it only works on small business. A service shop or a warehouse, a variety store or a McRonalds, these might add a few new jobs to the economy.

Big business like manufacturing that used to offer well paying jobs to the economy will just take the bonus advantages of a HST while merrily sending jobs to China anyway! All a harmonized sales tax will have done is to increase their profit margin.

I'm not sure if governments are really just naive about how business works today or if they simply want the tax grab and are looking for some kind of great-sounding excuse that might fool the simple.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

The premise seems partly true. Anything that encourages business growth will theoretically add new jobs.

The problem is that it only works on small business. A service shop or a warehouse, a variety store or a McRonalds, these might add a few new jobs to the economy.

Big business like manufacturing that used to offer well paying jobs to the economy will just take the bonus advantages of a HST while merrily sending jobs to China anyway! All a harmonized sales tax will have done is to increase their profit margin.

I'm not sure if governments are really just naive about how business works today or if they simply want the tax grab and are looking for some kind of great-sounding excuse that might fool the simple.

Government is very aware of how business works. They need to in order to get elected. Lets not even go to where without business there simply isn't enough money to run a campaign. Set aside the fact that there is no such thing as a poor retired politician. Just ignore the fact that when this was a nation of hewers of wood and drawers of water virtually devoid of manufacturing that business funded 80% of the tax load and citizens 20%, and now that has been completely reversed. Please do keep in mind that since we have been converted into the modern consuming nation that the greatest impact on the economy has been consumer spending and that taxes detract from disposable household income. Do keep in mind that there is more than one kind of tax placed on citizens, and that all kinds of taxes have adverse impact on citizens. Remember that we are in the grips of recession and a downturn in employment, and that citizens dollars are what make this country run in virtually all ways.

Having said all of this, is it not clear that there is but one area of agreement amongst citizens and that is our hatred of taxes. Is it not clear the government pits the interests of citizens against business in the name of balance and that balance is out of whack for all to see? The entire tax system is crap and nothing but.

[madmax]

You do realize that it is the taxed items on the pst that will increase, as the GST aplies to more goods and services in the provinces right? See it for what it is please a provincial tax grab

Its a Federal Tax Grab. There is no GST on many items but changes with the HST. I see it for exactly what it is. A HARMONIZED TAX GRAB with the Federal Government pulling a SArgent Shultz. "I KNOW NOTHING, NOOOTTHHINNG"

[madmax]

As I said before look to the provincial goverments, it was a very clever ploy to remove items from the pst exempt list. In Other words the province governments are using this as a tax raise, as usual the NDP misses the mark, it is the provincial government looking for hiden ways to raise the taxes.

The Provincial NDP along with the hypocritical Provincial PCs are campaigning against this tax. With the PCs saying, "now is not the right time" and the NDP against it. But both are campaigning against it, so the Opposition in Ontario including the NDP aren't missing anything.

The Federal NDP has seen who the puppeteer is.

I am not here to argue with Toad Brother and Riverwind on the specifics of the HST be it good or bad. They are excellent defenders of the economic reasons why the tax is a "better tax".

However, I also see it for what it is and who is behind it.

There are many who argued that the GST was a better tax. It was also a TAX GRAB that was implemented by Conservatives.

There are arguments good and bad for the HST. In a line similar to Jerry Fortin, it is my opinion that the rank and file taxpayer is going to take this tax the hardest.

Regardless, FEDERAL CONSERVATIVES have put their stamp on this tax and given $4.3 BILLION REASONS why it should be implemented.

People here shouldn't try to hide that LPC and CPC the Same HST Bed. Infact the CPC appear to like it even more then the LPC if thats possible.

Take away the $4.3 Billion and the $1.5 Billions from the Federal Contribution..

Until the Conservative government take their hands off this issue it will be regarded as the

Harper Sales Tax.

Edited November 18, 2009 by madmax

[whowhere]

From what I have seen when the provinces harmonize their tax with the GST the province has relinquished control over what is subject to the HST. This decision becomes the sole decision of the Federal Government. If the Conservatives want to establish themselves as the good guys come out and announce some adjustments such as no HST on used vehicle sales. This will mean an actual tax cut of 8 percent pst on used car sales. Instead its going to be a tax increase of 5 percent complements of the Harper conservatives. Figure out how many used cars sold privately in Ontario that is not subject to GST but will be once the HST goes through. This will translate into hundreds of millions in tax dollars for the corrupt conservatives.

[ToadBrother]

The Provincial NDP along with the hypocritical Provincial PCs are campaigning against this tax. With the PCs saying, "now is not the right time" and the NDP against it. But both are campaigning against it, so the Opposition in Ontario including the NDP aren't missing anything.

The Federal NDP has seen who the puppeteer is.

The Federal NDP would keep the tax if they got into power. Being in opposition means opposing.

I am not here to argue with Toad Brother and Riverwind on the specifics of the HST be it good or bad. They are excellent defenders of the economic reasons why the tax is a "better tax".

The economic reasons are pretty simple. On top of that is that, at least in BC, the PST is a horrible tax with bizarre rules that make the words "PST audit" one of the most feared by businesses in the province.

However, I also see it for what it is and who is behind it.

There are many who argued that the GST was a better tax. It was also a TAX GRAB that was implemented by Conservatives.

It may have been a tax grab, but it was still infinitely better than what it replaced. It has, over all, been a more open tax, and one that has been much cheaper for the Feds to administrate.

There are arguments good and bad for the HST. In a line similar to Jerry Fortin, it is my opinion that the rank and file taxpayer is going to take this tax the hardest.

If it were done properly, it shouldn't have. But because Harper dropped the GST down, instead of raising it and cutting payroll, corporate and capital gains taxes, like most of the economists were telling him to do, it has soured some of the better benefits that could have come from it.

Regardless, FEDERAL CONSERVATIVES have put their stamp on this tax and given $4.3 BILLION REASONS why it should be implemented.

People here shouldn't try to hide that LPC and CPC the Same HST Bed. Infact the CPC appear to like it even more then the LPC if thats possible.

Take away the $4.3 Billion and the $1.5 Billions from the Federal Contribution..

Until the Conservative government take their hands off this issue it will be regarded as the

Harper Sales Tax.

I think that's wishful thinking. I don't think the Feds are going to wear it much at all. The provincial governments in BC and Ontario most certainly will, but I simply don't see it having a lot of legs in Ottawa.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

The Federal NDP would keep the tax if they got into power. Being in opposition means opposing.

The economic reasons are pretty simple. On top of that is that, at least in BC, the PST is a horrible tax with bizarre rules that make the words "PST audit" one of the most feared by businesses in the province.

It may have been a tax grab, but it was still infinitely better than what it replaced. It has, over all, been a more open tax, and one that has been much cheaper for the Feds to administrate.

If it were done properly, it shouldn't have. But because Harper dropped the GST down, instead of raising it and cutting payroll, corporate and capital gains taxes, like most of the economists were telling him to do, it has soured some of the better benefits that could have come from it.

I think that's wishful thinking. I don't think the Feds are going to wear it much at all. The provincial governments in BC and Ontario most certainly will, but I simply don't see it having a lot of legs in Ottawa.

I think you need to see an eye doctor about your sight.

[madmax]

From what I have seen when the provinces harmonize their tax with the GST the province has relinquished control over what is subject to the HST. This decision becomes the sole decision of the Federal Government. If the Conservatives want to establish themselves as the good guys come out and announce some adjustments such as no HST on used vehicle sales. This will mean an actual tax cut of 8 percent pst on used car sales. Instead its going to be a tax increase of 5 percent complements of the Harper conservatives. Figure out how many used cars sold privately in Ontario that is not subject to GST but will be once the HST goes through. This will translate into hundreds of millions in tax dollars for the corrupt conservatives.

Yes it will be a windfall for the CPC government.

We won't be seeing the CPC interfere on behalf of the consumer or "as Good Guys" LOL.

[madmax]

The Federal NDP would keep the tax if they got into power. Being in opposition means opposing.

The intent is to PREVENT the HST coming into being with a FEDERAL BRIBE. You have to do this PRIOR to the money being spent not after. By then it is too late the $4.3 billion is spent and the HST is enacted.

The LPC are in opposition and they do not oppose this tax. Just as you do not oppose this tax.

The economic reasons are pretty simple. On top of that is that, at least in BC, the PST is a horrible tax with bizarre rules that make the words "PST audit" one of the most feared by businesses in the province.

I have yet to hear a small business complaining to me personally on the PST in Ontario. But I am hearing alot more from them regarding the HST.

It may have been a tax grab,

It is a tax grab.

but it was still infinitely better than what it replaced.

Not for me. I will be paying more in taxes on more items. Can't wait to see the growth in the underground economy.

If it were done properly, it shouldn't have. But because Harper dropped the GST down, instead of raising it and cutting payroll, corporate and capital gains taxes, like most of the economists were telling him to do, it has soured some of the better benefits that could have come from it.

That is a squabble between LPC and CPC. The CPC will be more then making up for it with the implementation of the HST in Ontario and BC. Giveth with one hand and taketh with another.

I think that's wishful thinking. I don't think the Feds are going to wear it much at all. The provincial governments in BC and Ontario most certainly will, but I simply don't see it having a lot of legs in Ottawa.

I believe that is called "living in the bubble". There will be CPC MPs who will feel the heat and will not be able to duck this. The CPC saving grace is that the LPC will not be making waves over the issue.

I see a rough road ahead for CPC MPs in BC. Possibly some in Ontario. It all depends upon the heat applied to the feet.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

The intent is to PREVENT the HST coming into being with a FEDERAL BRIBE. You have to do this PRIOR to the money being spent not after. By then it is too late the $4.3 billion is spent and the HST is enacted.

The LPC are in opposition and they do not oppose this tax. Just as you do not oppose this tax.

I have yet to hear a small business complaining to me personally on the PST in Ontario. But I am hearing alot more from them regarding the HST.

It is a tax grab.

Not for me. I will be paying more in taxes on more items. Can't wait to see the growth in the underground economy.

That is a squabble between LPC and CPC. The CPC will be more then making up for it with the implementation of the HST in Ontario and BC. Giveth with one hand and taketh with another.

I believe that is called "living in the bubble". There will be CPC MPs who will feel the heat and will not be able to duck this. The CPC saving grace is that the LPC will not be making waves over the issue.

I see a rough road ahead for CPC MPs in BC. Possibly some in Ontario. It all depends upon the heat applied to the feet.

I would describe it as a blow torch.

[ToadBrother]

The intent is to PREVENT the HST coming into being with a FEDERAL BRIBE. You have to do this PRIOR to the money being spent not after. By then it is too late the $4.3 billion is spent and the HST is enacted.

The Federal "bribe" was there when the Liberals started rolling it out. The Conservatives didn't invent it.

I have yet to hear a small business complaining to me personally on the PST in Ontario. But I am hearing alot more from them regarding the HST.

Can't speak to Ontario, but here in BC, I've been involved in a number of PST audits, and the rules surrounding PST are insanely complex. It has to be one of the most godawful taxes ever created in a jurisdiction in a modern, industrialized country. It's expensive to administrate, it's costly to business to manage. It is a terrible tax, and as much as people hate the HST, if they knew just how labyrinthine and ridiculous the PST was they'd shake in their boots.

[DrGreenthumb]

The NDP government in Manitoba says no to the HST. I will be sure to remind all the rural voters around here that the Harper Sales Tax would remove the tax exempt status on farm gas.

[madmax]

The Federal "bribe" was there when the Liberals started rolling it out. The Conservatives didn't invent it.

The Conservative Bribe is quite substantial. It is a Conservative supported tax. The Conservative government will benefit. The Harper Sales Tax will increase costs upon the individual.

I see no difference between the LPC and CPC position. The CPC want the public to believe they have nothing to do with it, which is not the case.

Can't speak to Ontario, but here in BC,

And I leave you with those last words, as I can't speak for BC and have to take your word for it.

[madmax]

NDP make poll gains over Tories, Liberals

By Mike Barber, CanwestNews ServiceNovember 21, 2009

The federal New Democratic Party has vaulted to levels of voter approval not seen since before the last federal election, as Canada's two major parties struggle to hold support, suggest findings of a poll released Friday.

The NDP surged six percentage points to 19% support nationally, according to results of an Ipsos Reid poll, commissioned by Canwest News Service and Global National.

Darrell Bricker, CEO and president of Ipsos Reid, chalked up the gains of Jack Layton's NDP to Ontario voters being frustrated with the McGuinty government, particularly with the forthcoming harmonized sales tax, and that is being carried over to the federal Liberals.

[madmax]

It's a good strategy for the NDP and I think they could bleed some votes from the Liberals and pick up a couple of seats. Ignatieff has already said he would support the HST...... and Ontario and BC have Liberal governments - and they're the ones who are responsible for the HST and how they decide to implement it - what gets taxed and what doesn't get taxed. So the Federal Liberals hands are tied unless they want to alienate their provincial cousins. What a mess they've got themselves into.

I posted the poll yesterday and a quote that gives weight to the HST.

I just realized you called this one. Do you work for a polling firm?

[dlkenny]

Too bad it's Harper offering up bribe money to B.C. and Ontario to implement tax increases on already beleagured taxpayers. This is the only issue anywhere in the realm that has the potential to turn a Tory 10% poll lead into a trailing by 5% debacle.

Harper's sales tax - what a ring that has to it.

The HST already exists in Atlantic Canada so there obviously is nothing stopping the provinces from implementing it. It is a way for the provincial governments to boost their coffers by increasing taxes and lowering administration costs (by transfering the responsibility of tax collection to Ottawa) all in one go. We all know that the provinces aren't going to give us a tax break for that reduction in costs and so we're getting hosed. The federal government will have to increase taxes somewhere to pay for that responsibility. It doesn't matter to me who taxes me for the administration costs, its the same either way but I don't like paying twice.

[madmax]

It appears that the NDP have picked up on the CPC bribe in BC and Ontario.

This is 18 days old, probably should have been the start of the thread topic. But the thread is about falling polling numbers for the CPC over the HST. And as was pointed out, its now hurting the LPC.

There are two motions coming forward. The Federal monies to the Provinces will end up being confidence motions. I expect the CPC and the LPC to rally around the HST and crush the NDP.

Siksay tables motion to stop HST in BC

Thu 05 Nov 2009

OTTAWA – New Democrat Bill Siksay (Burnaby-Douglas) has tabled a motion (M-465) to stop the Harmonised Sales Tax from being implemented in BC by cancelling a $1.6 billion federal incentive payment to the BC government.

The text of Siksay’s motion: That, in the opinion of the House, the government should give immediate notice to the Government of British Columbia that it no longer plans to introduce legislative measures to enable the implementation of a harmonized sales tax (HST) and that it plans to cancel its $1.6 billion offer to establish the HST in that province.

A similar motion (M-462) was tabled by New Democrat M.P. John Rafferty (Thunder Bay- Rainy River) that would eliminate the $4.3 billion federal HST incentive payment to the Ontario government.

That's $5.9 Billion in Federal Bribery monies at a time when the CPC is running a record deficit.

Harper Sales Tax

[Jerry J. Fortin]

It seems to me that fronting that kind of cash is about as close as we are going to get to an admission of guilt in the "no new tax" line we are now getting from the Harper government.

[Dave_ON]

The HST already exists in Atlantic Canada so there obviously is nothing stopping the provinces from implementing it. It is a way for the provincial governments to boost their coffers by increasing taxes and lowering administration costs (by transfering the responsibility of tax collection to Ottawa) all in one go. We all know that the provinces aren't going to give us a tax break for that reduction in costs and so we're getting hosed. The federal government will have to increase taxes somewhere to pay for that responsibility. It doesn't matter to me who taxes me for the administration costs, its the same either way but I don't like paying twice.

The difference in the Atlantic provinces is it meant an overall decrease in the percentage of tax. At the time the NB PST was 11% combined with the then 7% GST meant 18%. Then it was called the Blended Sales Tax, no joke obviously they didn't think the acronym through. (BST) However I digress. So at least in the case of NB it seemed as if the tax actually went down by 3%. I'm not sure how it shifted in terms of exemptions but it certainly didn't meet the resistance that it is in On and BC. I suppose it's because the over all percentage isn't changing, which might have made it a softer sell.

[madmax]

Each day this looks more and more like the Harper Sales Tax

http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2009/11/19/11804716-sun.html

The federal Tories pushed, prodded and ultimately paid Ontario to adopt the harmonized sales tax and any effort to disown those actions smells like a rodent, Ontario Finance Minister Dwight Duncan said yesterday.

"It's always funny to watch those individuals who are trying to deny the $4.3 billion their government is giving us. It's fun to watch."

Owen Sound-Bruce-Grey MP Larry Miller raised the ire of his provincial seatmate and fellow Tory Bill Murdoch earlier this year for disavowing his government's role in the tax and Sarnia's Pat Davidson has been quoted as encouraging seniors to fight against the HST as well.

But Duncan said Ontario would not and could not merge its retail sales tax with the federal GST for a 13% HST without plenty of encouragement and $4.3 billion of federal money.

The feds certainly pushed us," Duncan said, adding any doubt about where the federal Conservatives stand on the HST should be erased when Finance Minister Jim Flaherty introduces enabling legislation sometime before next March.

"I look forward to the debate in the federal house and I look forward to Mr. Flaherty restating what he has stated publicly on a number of occasions, as well as the prime minister."

And here is a petition to STOP the Conservative Funding of the HST.

http://www.fightthehike.ca/conservative-mp-hst-letter.html

Edited November 24, 2009 by madmax

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Each day this looks more and more like the Harper Sales Tax

http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2009/11/19/11804716-sun.html

And here is a petition to STOP the Conservative Funding of the HST.

http://www.fightthehike.ca/conservative-mp-hst-letter.html

Good luck with that folks.

[Shady]

Each day this looks more and more like the Harper Sales Tax

Like I stated in other thread of the same topic. I'm glad to hear you finally admit that taxes kill jobs.

[madmax]

Like I stated in other thread of the same topic. I'm glad to hear you finally admit that taxes kill jobs.

LOL. Keep spinning.

I await your signature on the petition.

I await your critism of the $4.3 Billion dollar Conservative Bribe.

I have respect for those people whom disagree with my railing against the HST and defend their positions for the HST then those who hide in the bush and toss about red herrings.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Tax'em all, Quebec needs more money.