Professor: Why would we stand in silence at 11am on Remembrance Day?

[wyly]

So again then, what is war really about. Educate us.

educate you, not possible I've already given you an indication and it sailed over your head...and to think I attended the remembrance day ceremony in person and you watched on tv, what a citizen you are...

[wyly]

What about ceremonies for the natives that fought along side the settlers? You have a very narrow view that clouds the way you see things.

I have the broadest of views it's yours that's narrow...how can you not see a native Canadian fighting the settlers to preserve his peoples way of life as a hero?...was this not the same logic that you use in wars vs the Nazi's???...history is written by the victor, the good guys don't always win...so what you are saying is natives fighting for their homes were despicable and unworthy of remembrance because they fought the good guys(white settlers)...

[Smallc]

Yes, I watched on TV, because I enjoy seeing the official Canadian ceremony that so many people attend. It brings me great pride in my country and the things that it has done. You attended in person, and yet you missed the entire meaning. What a citizen you are.

[DogOnPorch]

We had quite a huge crowd this year. More than last.

[DogOnPorch]

I have the broadest of views it's yours that's narrow...how can you not see a native Canadian fighting the settlers to preserve his peoples way of life as a hero?...was this not the same logic that you use in wars vs the Nazi's???...history is written by the victor, the good guys don't always win...so what you are saying is natives fighting for their homes were despicable and unworthy of remembrance because they fought the good guys(white settlers)...

It should be pointed out that there were no real Indian Wars in Canada as there was in the US. This I like to think was the result of law & order arriving in areas of Canada usually well ahead of any settlers other than the occasional fur trapper/trader.

[Guest TrueMetis]

as I said a tiny minority...Calgary city of a million at two locations combined about 11,000 and many at the largest were military, vets, cadets, an underwhelming participation by Canadians...Canadians don't care it's hypocrisy and conformity that gives a false illusion...

So half of Canadians were the Poppy just to conform? Sure that makes sense

and history is in the cause of war plays no part in the remembrance ceremony, only that people die because of it...so you are correct we will repeat the error and have in Afghanistan...

Maybe at the ceremonies you go to not the ones I do.

no you have delusions as to the valor of war I don't...why don't we have ceremonies for dead native Canadians who fought the invading settlers?...we choose to glorify who suit our agenda...

If people like you had been in charge during the World Wars all of Europe would speak German now.

Explain this statement.

It's obvious that you have no understanding of the causes of war. War is never about freedom and liberty, that's just what it becomes as a justification for war.

Then what the fuck was Canada's involvement in the World Wars? we didn't gain a damn thing, except freedom and liberty for those countries and peoples that had been conquered by Germany.

Edited November 15, 2009 by TrueMetis

[Smallc]

In Canada, the aboriginal people aligned with the French and English for the most part. That's where the fighting came from, as a result of their picking sides.

[Smallc]

Then what the fuck was Canada's involvement in the World Wars? we didn't gain a damn thing, except freedom and liberty for those countries and peoples that had been conquered by Germany.

The same can be said for our presence in Afghanistan after the fall of the Taliban. Why did we stay? What did it gain us? The same can also be said for the people that we have as observers in different areas in the middle east, and the trainers and equipment that we have in Africa. What do we gain? What did we gain in Bosnia?

As you know (and he doesn't seem to), the western world has stepped up many times in the name of many things, and most of them haven't been sinister. We should be proud of our traditions and our accomplishments.

[punked]

I don't know where you live but at my service, I turned to the Afghan Vet I was standing with and said "It is nice to see the town come out for something other then a hockey game or a sale at the mall." There is was so many of us there they had to close the streets down as people at the service poured onto them.

[DogOnPorch]

In Canada, the aboriginal people aligned with the French and English for the most part. That's where the fighting came from, as a result of their picking sides.

In the East this holds some water due to much longer contact...but not in the West were the only Indian wars were where the occasional group of warriors might commit some murders that Judge Begbie had to sort out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Baillie_Begbie

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chilcotin_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Douglas_(governor)

[Smallc]

Yes, that's true. I was simply agreeing with you that there wasn't the large push by aboriginals here to keep settlers out that there was in the US.

[Gabriel]

Even though this thread's gone off on a major tangent, IIRC, 95% of the Native population of the Americas (including Canada, obviously) were killed by European diseases that they had no resistance to. Almost a sort of inadvertent extermination (although there is evidence suggesting that European pioneers did learn of this and utilize it to wipe out certain indigenous populations/tribes). Just thought that might be a fact some of you are unaware of. I only learned about it a few years ago after reading Jared Diamond's "Guns, Germs, and Steel".

Edited November 15, 2009 by Gabriel

[DogOnPorch]

Yes, that's true. I was simply agreeing with you that there wasn't the large push by aboriginals here to keep settlers out that there was in the US.

We often agree...arf!

[g_bambino]

KeyStone... puts his despicable perspective on display by suggesting that Remembrance Day glorifies war. People who aren't mentally ill realize that Remembrance Day doesn't come close to glorifying war, if anything, it is entirely the opposite.

Indeed it is. It would seem to me that, unfortunately, KeyStone, and others like him, mistake glorifying the military for glorifying war. Veterans certainly respect and generally speak highly of the military - its discipline, service, and bravery - but will rarely ever make war itself into a heroic and admirable act.

[g_bambino]

What an absolutely disgusting thing to say.

Did you expect more from him?

[capricorn]

I always had it as a statutory holiday and we still did all the poster and essay contests, so there's really no school issue.

I see your point noah. Yet, since the Legion is the most important driving force behind Remembrance, I am partial to their view.

The malls should be respecting the day too.

Here in Ottawa, a city by-law prohibits stores opening until the Parliament Hill Remembrance ceremonies are completed. I think this is appropriate. One new and successful market was fined for opening in the morning. To their credit, they apologized and donated their morning profit to the Legion's Poppy Fund.

T&T Supermarket, which was among some 40 businesses fined for opening before noon on Remembrance Day , says it will donate all profits it made on the morning of Nov. 11 to the Royal Canadian Legion's Poppy Fund.

"T&T would like to apologize for opening our store the morning of Remembrance Day. Being new to Ottawa, we did not realize a different bylaw existed from our stores in Toronto, Ontario which there is no change in operating hours. We meant no disrespect to our nation’s heroes," Tina Lee, director of strategy and operations for T&T, said in a statement.

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Food+store+apologizes+Remembrance+opening/2218903/story.html

Good on 'em.

[wulf42]

That is because as time passes many forget the only reason we aren't speaking really good German is because of our vets, many never stop to think how close Germany came to winning the war! IMO if Hitler had been knocked off early in the war and leadership fell onto Rommel i think the Allies would have either lost or the war would have dragged on for years. I wonder if the young people today stop to think how different our world would have been if not for the sacrifices of all our Vets?

Edited November 15, 2009 by wulf42

[DogOnPorch]

That is because as time passes many forget the only reason we aren't speaking really good German is because of our vets, many never stop to think how close Germany came to winning the war! IMO if Hitler had been knocked off early in the war and leadership fell onto Rommel i think the Allies would have either lost or the war would have dragged on for years. I wonder if the young people today stop to think how different our world would have been if not for the sacrifices of all our Vets?

Rommel, while talented wasn't their best card by far. Two others were a head taller at least...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinz_Guderian

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_von_Manstein

Guderian, father of the Blitzkrieg, was one of the few that could actually stand-up to Hitler's temper tantrums. For his patience, he was allowed direct access to Hitler...much to Bormann's chagrin who disliked all Army Generals. He was fired after the Battle of Moscow for no good reason other than someone's head had to role. It wasn't until 1943 or so that he was brought back from retirement to be Inspector General of the Armored Forces. Too little...too late.

[Guest TrueMetis]

Rommel, while talented wasn't their best card by far. Two others were a head taller at least...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinz_Guderian

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_von_Manstein

Guderian, father of the Blitzkrieg, was one of the few that could actually stand-up to Hitler's temper tantrums. For his patience, he was allowed direct access to Hitler...much to Bormann's chagrin who disliked all Army Generals. He was fired after the Battle of Moscow for no good reason other than someone's head had to role. It wasn't until 1943 or so that he was brought back from retirement to be Inspector General of the Armored Forces. Too little...too late.

Add Von Rundstedt to that, under orders to "not give an inch" and "hold under all conditions" he did surprisingly well.

Edited November 16, 2009 by TrueMetis

[DogOnPorch]

Add Von Rundstedt to that under orders to "not give an inch" and "hold under all conditions" he did surprisingly well.

Yes indeed...but he still never really understood the Blitzkrieg the way the 'younger' officers did. While his army group did do the best during the opening rounds of Barbarossa, it was Guderian who had to swing in from the north and finish the Battle of Kiev...Germany's largest victory of WW2. Trouble was, Moscow, in Guderian's area (AGC: von Bock), didn't fall as planned. But, I do have to agree he'd have been a good fellow to serve under in terms of competance. A safe bet and a better defensive general than offensive.

Overall...Germany had brilliant officers...but Hitler often got in their way.

Edited November 16, 2009 by DogOnPorch

[Melanie_]

When I read the opening post, I was surprised that the university was open at all; here in Manitoba everything is shut down until 1:00, when businesses can open for the rest of the day. Most of us get a full day off. Remembrance is a personal thing, so if one person chooses to remember the sacrifices made by the aboriginals when the white settlers arrived, who's to say they shouldn't? I know I didn't attend a ceremony, or watch one on TV, but I did spend much of the day pondering "In Flanders Fields", repeating the poem to myself on and off throughout the day, and really thinking about what it meant to the author, and to countless Canadians since it was written. We all know it, and know the story of how John McCrae saw his young friend die, wrote the poem, then ripped it out of his notebook and threw it away. I've heard this poem every year as long as I can remember, but instead of becoming more and more stale, each year it becomes more poignant for me.

In Flanders fields the poppies blow

Between the crosses, row on row,

That mark our place; and in the sky

The larks, still bravely singing, fly

Scarce heard amid the guns below.

We are the Dead. Short days ago

We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,

Loved, and were loved, and now we lie

In Flanders fields.

Take up our quarrel with the foe:

To you from failing hands we throw

The torch; be yours to hold it high.

If ye break faith with us who die

We shall not sleep, though poppies grow

In Flanders fields.

— Lt.-Col. John McCrae (1872 - 1918)

[Guest TrueMetis]

Yes indeed...but he still never really understood the Blitzkrieg the way the 'younger' officers did. While his army group did do the best during the opening rounds of Barbarossa, it was Guderian who had to swing in from the north and finish the Battle of Kiev...Germany's largest victory of WW2. Trouble was, Moscow, in Guderian's area (AGC: von Bock), didn't fall as planned. But, I do have to agree he'd have been a good fellow to serve under in terms of competance. A safe bet and a better defensive general than offensive.

I was thinking more about operation Market Garden and there after, had it been Field Marshal Model or Von Kluge in charge they would have definately lost right then and there. Without Rundstedt saving Von Zangen's army the Germans would have been wiped out easily.

Overall...Germany had brilliant officers...but Hitler often got in their way.

I'm reminded of a quote can't remember who said it though

Give me German officers, Canadian soldiers, and British equipment and I'll rule the world. (It was something like that)

[DogOnPorch]

I was thinking more about operation Market Garden and there after, had it been Field Marshal Model or Von Kluge in charge they would have definately lost right then and there. Without Rundstedt saving Von Zangen's army the Germans would have been wiped out easily.

By 1944, Hitler had fired or forced retirement on so many of the big generals that he was left with characters like Model and SS generals. Good for us at least...

I'm reminded of a quote can't remember who said it though

Give me German officers, Canadian soldiers, and British equipment and I'll rule the world. (It was something like that)

You sound like an old wargamer...are you? I sure was...lol. Hard to find face-to-face opponents these days, mind you. Such is the computer age.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/1423

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/8993

[Guest TrueMetis]

By 1944, Hitler had fired or forced retirement on so many of the big generals that he was left with characters like Model and SS generals. Good for us at least...

Rundstedt was one of those generals, unfortunately for us Hitler came to his sense on this one so the war was prolonged. If Rundstedt hadn't be reinstated we could have liberated Holand in a week.

You sound like an old wargamer...are you? I sure was...lol. Hard to find face-to-face opponents these days, mind you. Such is the computer age.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/1423

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/8993

Nope never heard of this before, sounds interesting though.

Edited November 16, 2009 by TrueMetis

[Army Guy]

Indeed it is. It would seem to me that, unfortunately, KeyStone, and others like him, mistake glorifying the military for glorifying war. Veterans certainly respect and generally speak highly of the military - its discipline, service, and bravery - but will rarely ever make war itself into a heroic and admirable act.

This quote and Gabriel's quote are bang on. Rememberance day has nothing to do with War and all of it's baggage...It's about paying tribute to those that have fallen or served, To honor thier sacrifice that they have made towards our nation.

To the Vets it's a emotional wrapped day of events, from joy of seeing old comrads, to pain of remembering those that have not come back, to guilt living while so many died, to rememberance, over a few beers with comrads talking about those that did not make it back, sharing a few laughs, and a few tears as stories are told about each one of them...its our way to ensure that we don't forget...atleast while we are still alive...

As any Vet will tell you, very few good things come out of war, it's not a movie , nothing romantic about it, or is it full of adventure....It's a journey into the gates of hell.