Ford closing St Thomas ON

[madmax]

Why do people blame free trade for these sorts of things. The Big Three have spent the last two decades (or more) building cars that nobody wants to drive.

To be Certain, GM has virtually always been

the Largest Automotive Manufacturer in terms of both Auto and Truck Sales. Toyotas overtaking of

GM in terms of Auto Production last year, lead Toyota into their largest debacle in history. It was a

Phyrric Victory. Regardless of what you may think of the 3 North American Owned auto manufacturers

they will continue to build cars, and its just a matter of where.

Other than basically seizing control of the companies and dictating what they build, or simply dumping large amounts of tax money into their laps, I'm not sure what the Feds can or should do.

If you are going to dump Canadian money, there should be some return for Canadians. If the Government followed the position of the CAW with regards to monies, the Canadian operations would be building "green" automobiles. This isn't to say that Green Autos are a marketing success, because really they aren't. Not yet anyways. But the public would receive some value in what is spent, and that these vehicles would be built here.

Why lend money to an Auto Plant that is scheduled to Close? That is one thing that happened last year during Harpers election games. He went into a community that was on the bubble of going Conservative and they made an announcement to give the company millions of dollars. Not to keep it open, there was no promise of that, although the public may have believed that to be the case. Nope this was one more free corporate handout among many, as a bye bye parting gift. And IIRC the Conservatives picked up the riding and the people in that place are out of work today.

Seizing control is something that has happened in the past in other industries. Then the industry is stablized and resold to another entity as a profitable operation that remains in Canada. I haven't seen those actions taken in well over a decade, and certainly not since the Bankruptcy laws became modified to allow the companies to maintain control of their failed operations and the receivers intent is to continue to do the will of the company and the companies appointed people to be the "court appointed" .... "monitors".

To understand that what is happening in Ontario is Grave, is to look beyond the myth of Auto. And into the entire happens of our industrial economy. This is an old article from 2007. And this trend began with the Liberals and accerated under Conservative government creating the tidal wave of this year.

http://www.icis.com/Articles/2007/05/11/9028219/canada-buyouts-plant-closures-accelerate.html

Canada buyouts, plant closures accelerate

11 May 2007 20:31 [source: ICIS news]

By Stefan Baumgarten

TORONTO (ICIS news)--The current wave of takeovers and buyouts in Canada, along with plant closures, is set to continue as the government is unlikely to intervene, a top Canadian petrochemicals analyst said on Friday.

The takeovers reflected a broad, worldwide trend that was affecting chemicals, along with many other sectors, said independent Toronto-based petrochemicals analyst John Cummings.

In the case of resource-rich Canada, the trend was accelerated by high commodity prices and demand, as well as Canada’s access to the vast US market.

Canada, unlike other nations, did not reserve its large mining, metals and oil and gas sectors for national companies, Cummings said.

At the same time, its anti-monopoly regulations were weak, and the ruling Conservative government has shown no sign of intervening, Cummings said.

The country never had a consistent policy with regard to takeovers, and this was not likely to change, he added.

“The trend will continue … it is probably too late now for Canada to move to protect its core industries,” he said.

[madmax]

Well, high wages and benefits packages hasn't exactly delivered an economic miracle. Ten bucks an hour is too low, but how about $25-$30 an hour plus a modest benefit package that's actually sustainable in an economic downturn?

How many industrial companies paying less then $15 top rate with an average wage of $12 that have

relocated, closed or gone bankrupt this year would you like me to list? There are companies leaving

and their wages here are $9.50. While not high paying jobs, these are still jobs. And they are leaving, because they have to follow the rest of industry. And if there clients are leaving, so are they.

Industrial companies use full time temp agency employees for years and years and years. You don't pay those benefits or high wages and this has help lead to a lack of consumer spending. $10 isn't going to pay a mortgage, or buy a new car.

Parasites within the industry are sucking out consumer spending capacity.

Not certain what you make, but perhaps you can tell me how much less you are willing to work for?

[ToadBrother]

How many industrial companies paying less then $15 top rate with an average wage of $12 that have

relocated, closed or gone bankrupt this year would you like me to list? There are companies leaving

and their wages here are $9.50. While not high paying jobs, these are still jobs. And they are leaving, because they have to follow the rest of industry. And if there clients are leaving, so are they.

Industrial companies use full time temp agency employees for years and years and years. You don't pay those benefits or high wages and this has help lead to a lack of consumer spending. $10 isn't going to pay a mortgage, or buy a new car.

Parasites within the industry are sucking out consumer spending capacity.

Not certain what you make, but perhaps you can tell me how much less you are willing to work for?

No one is denying that the automakers screwed themselves over. The problem is in part that they seemed unwilling or incapable to adapt to changing market conditions, and, in fact, at least in the States, managed to use their industrial lobby to get Congress to create an artificial market place which ultimately blew up in their face.

But the other reason is that they aren't competitive any more. Unless you want to advocate building a big bloody wall around the US and Canada and not allowing in foreign competition, not just the companies, but the workers have to adapt. That's the reality.

[Shady]

I'm suprised more on the left aren't celebrating. Ford is an example of the type of evil corporation they've been fighting against for years. Remember? They make too much money, and need to be taxed more. I figured they'd all be cheering Ford getting what it deserves. No?

[punked]

I'm suprised more on the left aren't celebrating. Ford is an example of the type of evil corporation they've been fighting against for years. Remember? They make too much money, and need to be taxed more. I figured they'd all be cheering Ford getting what it deserves. No?

I'm suprised more on the right aren't celebrating. UAW members are an example of the type of evil Unions they've been fighting against for years. Remember? They make too much money, and need to busted. I figured they'd all be cheering Ford workers getting what it deserves. No?

Ouch truth hurts Shady when your words are used against you.

Edited November 8, 2009 by punked

[Shady]

UAW members are an example of the type of evil Unions they've been fighting against for years. Remember? They make too much money, and need to busted.

But I agree with that. Unions have been killing jobs and businesses for years.

[Oleg Bach]

We have no respect for people who actually create real tangable wealth with their hands. We seem to respect those in the finacial trades and the information exchange buisness more. Those who are creaters of dellusion,con men who make nothing are held in high regard. We sure are a bunch of suckers when we send the rich money because they are dependent on cheap off shore labour and are actually burning the camp as they leave...You would assume if you bail out a company... that the company includes everybody - not just top management. I don't get it - we send them a billion bucks and they still show you the door.

[madmax]

No one is denying that the automakers screwed themselves over. The problem is in part that they seemed unwilling or incapable to adapt to changing market conditions, and, in fact, at least in the States, managed to use their industrial lobby to get Congress to create an artificial market place which ultimately blew up in their face.

Automakers are one lobby group. Automakers adapt to market conditions. That is a fact. All companies use the political system in all countries around the globe to create artificial markets and market conditions.

It was the artificial housing market that caused the automotive meltdown in the United States. When the government deregulated the housing industry and banks got greedy and fraudulent, people lost their homes. People losing their homes don't buy new vehicles. The first cuts come to the highest priced vehicles and to the Automotive companies with the highest sales in the US. That is why GM and TOYOTA took some of the heaviest hits, with GM caught in mid transistion to their offshore and Mexican operations.

That is why they needed the cash flow. To continue the transition to lower labour costs and environmental regulation and enforcement.

But the other reason is that they aren't competitive any more. Unless you want to advocate building a big bloody wall around the US and Canada and not allowing in foreign competition, not just the companies, but the workers have to adapt. That's the reality.

I believe that Sir John A MacDonald was correct in creating tarrifs to attract industry to Canada.

Don't worry, there isn't a trade deal out there that a Conservative or Liberal doesn't love, so your opinion will hold sway.

However, your understanding of the Global nature of industry is incorrect.

Simply from an Automotive standpoint.

Ford, GM and Chrysler are all Foreign.

Toyota, Honda, and Suzuki/Cami are Foreign.

In Canada, Ford, GM and Chrysler are reducing operations with long term goals to cease all production in Canada.

Toyota, Honda and Suzuki/Cami will not be far behind.

You have a way to pay a Canadian Engineer $600 to $1,000 per month in an industrial capacity (Full time) or an Electrician, Millwright, Mechanic, Tool Maker, CNC Operator etc. $300 to $700 per month.

What I see today, are design firms who once had hundreds of technicians and engineers on staff, suppling technical aid for numerous industries, wiped out with 1 or 2 of these people creating a small company as the liason and all processing and first offs are done in Asia.

I've thought about farming out our Senate.

We could get the building and Senators for dirt cheap. Electronically send everything back to us. If its good enough for our banking system, its good enough for the Senate. It would save us a fortune.

[Oleg Bach]

Great idea - senatorial pot hole fillers...road gang - really cool old guys with a pick up truck fill with hot ashphalt..they could chat up passers by and we could all learn a thing or two..

[fellowtraveller]

Close our borders now to foreign goods and apply huge tariffs. Resurrect the McLaughlin and Maple Leaf brands.

It's our only hope.

[Topaz]

But I agree with that. Unions have been killing jobs and businesses for years.

So you are saying you are against ALL unions or just the CAW? How has the CAW kills jobs? Before you go to the high paying jobs, lets remember it was the head of the companies that agreed with the contracts.The Cons have reduce corporate taxes and you can still see companies leaving for India. China and Mexico. Is that what you want Canada to look like in the future? Who are you going to blame when most of the manufacturing in Canada are gone and jobs are no longer plentiful?

[punked]

So you are saying you are against ALL unions or just the CAW? How has the CAW kills jobs? Before you go to the high paying jobs, lets remember it was the head of the companies that agreed with the contracts.The Cons have reduce corporate taxes and you can still see companies leaving for India. China and Mexico. Is that what you want Canada to look like in the future? Who are you going to blame when most of the manufacturing in Canada are gone and jobs are no longer plentiful?

As long as it breaks the Unions he doesn't care. That is the difference between us I don't want to punish industry for creating jobs in fact I welcome it. Great do more of it, but pay a fair wage for work. Shady has never seen a Union job he did liked though he doesn't care if the whole country burns as long as those evil unions are busted. I want success Shady wants failure.

Edited November 9, 2009 by punked

[Wild Bill]

As long as it breaks the Unions he doesn't care. That is the difference between us I don't want to punish industry for creating jobs in fact I welcome it. Great do more of it, but pay a fair wage for work. Shady has never seen a Union job he did liked though he doesn't care if the whole country burns as long as those evil unions are busted. I want success Shady wants failure.

You are making an assumption. The real question is, if you pay a fair North American wage can you make a product that competes in price with competition from other countries, like China? If you can't, then you don't sell your stuff. How would that be success?

Some of us try to support domestic manufacturing but it's a tough go. Whenever I shop I pay attention to the country of origin label on the can. Still, in many areas like auto manufacturing you need high volume sales to be able to even play in the game. If every Canadian bought only Canadian made cars our manufacturers still couldn't compete. Our domestic volume is "mice nuts" compared to the other players. The same for toasters and TVs.

I even sent an email to Heinz Canada, asking why I couldn't see anything on their cans of beans that told me where their beans came from. All it says is "Union Made". I really couldn't care less if their beans were produced in a union environment. I just don't want to buy foreign beans! The other brands told me the country of origin. I got a reply telling me that all of their beans sold in Canada came from beans grown in Leamington, Ontario. That reassured me and I started buying their product again, but I am still curious why they don't want to advertise "Product of Canada" on their label.

I'm flogging a dead horse, I know. When I see all the cars in the WalMart parking lot it would seem that I'm just one leaf in the windstorm. In that store I swear the only thing NOT from China would be the music on the overhead speakers. Of course, their CD is probably a Chinese pirate copy...

[madmax]

Hear him hear him !!!

[Oleg Bach]

Close our borders now to foreign goods and apply huge tariffs. Resurrect the McLaughlin and Maple Leaf brands.

It's our only hope.

Trying to be funny? I took a nice carrot from Mexico and ate the thing laying in bed the other night - It tasted like card board...maybe we should start growing our own again - and where the hell are my seeds that used to be in my watermellon? That mellon taste like nothing - I don't mind spitting the seeds - it's part of the tradition..seedless product is defective for the most part. Henry Ford did not want the car to be an artifical body part..His dream was to allow urban dwellers a sunday drive to have a picnic in the country --- does McLaughlin still make cars? Okay - not going to be funny anymore - How come we think that Canada can not support itself with it's own product and goods and food? Why do they attatch the negative term "isolationists" or "protectionists" as if protecting yourself is bad? Who are the ones that need and want continued international trade at the expense of most common Canadians? Certainly not common Canadians.

[Shady]

Trying to be funny? I took a nice carrot from Mexico and ate the thing laying in bed the other night - It tasted like card board...maybe we should start growing our own again

We do. We grow a lot of fruits and vegetables. Just not in the fall and winter, unless it's indoors.

[madmax]

We do. We grow a lot of fruits and vegetables. Just not in the fall and winter, unless it's indoors.

Like everything else in a Laissez faire society. Food processing affects locally grown food supplies and local markets are eradicated.

However, to follow through a bit on Wild Bills perspective.... If I did understand him correctly, this article should support his position.

http://www.ontarioheritageconnection.org/live/main.php?page=news.200809_c.html

Canada’s Last Fruit Canning Plant Closes

Mary F. Williamson

Mary is a collector of rare and antiquarian cookbooks, who frequently writes on Canadian culinary history. She is a retired Adjunct Professor in the Fine Arts Department at York University, Toronto. This article first appeared in Culinary Chronicles, the Newsletter of the Culinary Historians of Ontario, Summer 2008, Number 57, pages 12–13.

“As Canada’s last fruit canning plant closes, what happens to the farms, the markets and the consumers?” – Headline of a story in the Hamilton Spectator, June 28, 2008.

How ironic that just when everyone demands local food – and many of us living in this area are convinced that Niagara peaches are the best in the world – the whole industry has been knocked on its head, and canned fruits from China will take their place.

When the canning factory departs, fruit growers face an uncertain future, and already many of the peach orchards around St. Catharines have disappeared. Peaches and other soft fruits, such as pears, plums, apricots, and cherries, are being supplanted by wine grapes. Most of us are thrilled that Niagara wines are at last being noticed by the international wine press, but we also see towns like Virgil – smack dab in the middle of the best agricultural land – seeming to encourage galloping suburban growth.

The report in the Hamilton Spectator spelled out the sequence of events that led to the demise of CanGro and its labels Del Monte and Aylmer. Much blame is placed on Canada’s regulatory and taxation policies, but also on a need for more capital investment and automation of the canning processes. Apparently the factory was making money, but CanGro was simply not a part of “the global economy.”

[Shady]

I want success Shady wants failure.

What you consider "success" isn't sustainable, and in most cases, is anti-business, and anti-economic growth.

Unions turned GM into the largest private purchaser of Viagra in the world. That's what Unions do now. They slowly destroy the industry that provided for their ascendancy. They act as parasites on a host, either not knowing or not caring that they're biting the hand that feeds them. The Ford plant in St. Thomas is just another example.

[madmax]

And the other 80% of non union operations leaving the country???

What is your solution to the 9 of 12 non union Industries that left my city since March of this year?

Wages weren't a factor? Lean Production wasn't a factor? Tax Cuts weren't a factor?

I've seen it all.

Canada continues to lose.

On a final note on unions.

I recall after working 15 years in various white collar managerial and blue collar circles landing in my first Union Shop. I held all the stereotypes.

On November 11th at 11am everything went silent.

Then the noise fired up at levels equal to artillery shells launched from a howitzer. Back to work as normal. Never before had I seen a workplace pause to remember those who fought for us.

[punked]

What you consider "success" isn't sustainable, and in most cases, is anti-business, and anti-economic growth.

Unions turned GM into the largest private purchaser of Viagra in the world. That's what Unions do now. They slowly destroy the industry that provided for their ascendancy. They act as parasites on a host, either not knowing or not caring that they're biting the hand that feeds them. The Ford plant in St. Thomas is just another example.

Shady wants us to measure a companies success and failures by how much Viagra it purchases. Ignoring the fact Toyota has almost all the same costs as GM does but doesn't have 300,000 pension to pay yet. They going to be in the same boat in 20 years when those pension need to be paid Shady. Keep lying to yourself and blame the unions even though they are a small cost.

Here is an idea Shady you want GM out of Health care support health care reform but you would never do that you would rather the US burns and breaks the Unions. GM spends 6 billion on Health Care, you want to make them competitive then fucking fix the health Care system.

Sahdy you might also want to tell me how GM is the largest buyer of Viagra when in 2009 they negotiated to have it taken off the Drug plan? Oh yeah it was just something you heard on Rush and never checked right?

Edited November 10, 2009 by punked

[Shady]

Shady wants us to measure a companies success and failures by how much Viagra it purchases.

Nope, not at all. I'm just illustrating how off the rails GM was taken by Unions. Paying tens of millions of dollars a year on Viagra has little to do with manufacturing and selling automobiles.

Message to the UAW/CAW: Buy your own boner medication!

Ignoring the fact Toyota has almost all the same costs as GM does but doesn't have 300,000 pension to pay yet.

You're either lying or misinformed. Toyota does not have the same costs as GM. Look it up.

They going to be in the same boat in 20 years when those pension need to be paid Shady.

You're either lying or misinformed. Toyota doesn't operate under the same ridiculous UAW/CAW union obligations. Look it up.

Sahdy you might also want to tell me how GM is the largest buyer of Viagra when in 2009 they negotiated to have it taken off the Drug plan?

GM Spends $17 Million Per Year on Viagra

Lifestyle drugs -- chiefly Viagra -- are costing General Motors $17 million dollars a year and the cost is passed along to car, truck and SUV consumers. The blue pill is covered under GM's labor agreement with United Auto Workers, as well as benefit plans for salaried employees.

GM executives estimate health care adds $1,500 to the price of each vehicle

Consumer Affairs

In other words, if anyone purchased a GM vehicle over the last several years, they were financing union member boner medication. Pathetic. And they wonder why they don't have jobs anymore?

[madmax]

You're either lying or misinformed. Toyota doesn't operate under the same ridiculous UAW/CAW union obligations. Look it up.

GM Spends $17 Million Per Year on Viagra

Lifestyle drugs -- chiefly Viagra -- are costing General Motors $17 million dollars a year and the cost is passed along to car, truck and SUV consumers. The blue pill is covered under GM's labor agreement with United Auto Workers, as well as benefit plans for salaried employees.

GM executives estimate health care adds $1,500 to the price of each vehicle

Consumer Affairs

In other words, if anyone purchased a GM vehicle over the last several years, they were financing union member boner medication. Pathetic. And they wonder why they don't have jobs anymore?

Toyota, Honda, and Suzuki employees all have a prescription benefit plan. Viagara is amongst the approved drugs.

Straight like arrow.

White Collar employees in all automotive companies are entitled to drug benefits and health benefits.

Automotive practices across Ontario are similar in nature and process.

Edited November 11, 2009 by madmax

[madmax]

In other words, if anyone purchased a GM vehicle over the last several years, they were financing union member boner medication. Pathetic. And they wonder why they don't have jobs anymore?

Other employees who receive boner medication work in places like this.

TD CENTRE

Bank Of Montreal

Insurance companies

Investment firms

Senators {the appointed ones like Mike Duffy and the ones who play hockey)

Those 27 Harper Senators have a really good union.

[punked]

Nope, not at all. I'm just illustrating how off the rails GM was taken by Unions. Paying tens of millions of dollars a year on Viagra has little to do with manufacturing and selling automobiles.

Message to the UAW/CAW: Buy your own boner medication!

You're either lying or misinformed. Toyota does not have the same costs as GM. Look it up.

You're either lying or misinformed. Toyota doesn't operate under the same ridiculous UAW/CAW union obligations. Look it up.

GM Spends $17 Million Per Year on Viagra

Lifestyle drugs -- chiefly Viagra -- are costing General Motors $17 million dollars a year and the cost is passed along to car, truck and SUV consumers. The blue pill is covered under GM's labor agreement with United Auto Workers, as well as benefit plans for salaried employees.

GM executives estimate health care adds $1,500 to the price of each vehicle

Consumer Affairs

In other words, if anyone purchased a GM vehicle over the last several years, they were financing union member boner medication. Pathetic. And they wonder why they don't have jobs anymore?

But you fail to address the facts I brought up. UAW negotiated in good faith and in 2009 Viagra was taken off the drug plan. So you are lying when you say they are the largest buying because right now they buy none. The other thing is Gm spends 6 billion a year on Health care but if they passed a real health care reform (single payer) they would pay nothing. Something you ignore.

Toyota has virtually the same costs as GM but they don't have 300,000 pensioners in fact right now they have 100 come back to me 20 years when they have 50,000 and tell me how great they are. Of course GM wants to break the union then Toyota and GM could drive wages, but Toyota has almost all the same costs with out the retirees right now.

[Shady]

UAW negotiated in good faith and in 2009 Viagra was taken off the drug plan.

They had to, because their companies were going bankrupt. However, up until that point, before they had no choice, GM was the largest private purchaser of Viagra. And boner medication added $1500 per car to the total cast of a vehicle.

Toyota has virtually the same costs as GM

I'll kindly ask you again to stop lying. Toyota doesn't have the same costs as GM. And Toyota won't have the same legacy/retirement costs as GM, because Toyota isn't bound by the same pension obligations as GM. Cut the lying crap.

And to further illustrate my point, in 2007, General Motors sold more cars than Toyota.

GM sales in 2007: 9,370,000 vehicles

Toyota sales in 2007: 9,366,418 vehicles

Now let's look at profit.

GM profit/loss in 2007: -$38,730,000,000 (-$4,055 per car)

Toyota profit in 2007: +$17,146,000,000 (+$1,874 per car)

Can you imagine outselling a competitor by 4000 vehicles, but losing $36 billion dollars? While your competitor earns $17 billion?

Thank you UAW/CAW.