Canadian Identity: un-American

[g_bambino]

Pfft, wow. That's not even worth a response... I'd be better off arguing with a tree.

I was going to make a reply, but then read your post and agreed with it. Charter Rights goes on about Charter rights apparently not knowing that the Charter was signed into law by the very foreign Queen he says has no place in Canada! What a dolt.

[Gabriel]

Pfft, wow. That's not even worth a response. Your very narrow very imaginary definition of a culture and an identity isn't all that realistic. It's not really up to you alone to decide, especially when you're so ill informed when it comes to the origins of Canada, the Constitution, and the reality of the Crown in Canada.

Don't expect anymore responses. I'd be better off arguing with a tree.

Agreed - definitely not worth the effort. He's not a serious contributor.

[g_bambino]

It is/was the very lack of such definitions and categorizations that led to present circumstances, with Canada playing catch-up with such things as a repatriated constitution and a real Charter of Rights.

"Catch up" to whom and "real" compared to what? Surely you don't mean the US, given how much you loathe Canadians comparing themselves to the pepople of that country...

[bush_cheney2004]

"Catch up" to whom and "real" compared to what? Surely you don't mean the US, given how much you loathe Canadians comparing themselves to the pepople of that country...

Catch up to Canada's own expressed inadequacies....exemplified by a failed ADR process, sovereignty, and individual rights, not to mention a strong separatist movement in Quebec. Canadians will always so compare, regardless of my loathing.

The Canadian nationalists were demanding constitutional reform which would ensure that all judicial and legislative decisions would remain accountable to the Canadian people and not be exercised in the interests of the British Isles.

.....there was much catching up to do.

http://cfcj-fcjc.org/clearinghouse/drpapers/2001-dra/raphael_feldste.html

Edited November 6, 2009 by bush_cheney2004

[charter.rights]

Pfft, wow. That's not even worth a response. Your very narrow very imaginary definition of a culture and an identity isn't all that realistic. It's not really up to you alone to decide, especially when you're so ill informed when it comes to the origins of Canada, the Constitution, and the reality of the Crown in Canada.

Don't expect anymore responses. I'd be better off arguing with a tree.

I see....lalalalalalala...you can't hear me......

Is that all you have?

To the contrary I know much more about the history and origins of Canada, and what constitutes culture than all the myths you perpetrate. Canada is not a nation in the same way the US is. Our constitution did not arrive by the will of the people but had to be signed by the CEO of the corporation - The Queen. That is no different that a company charter that provide certain rights for its investors, its management and employees.

Culture must be represented by icons. We have no icons. Those we claim as our own have been stolen from other cultures, or inaccurately appropriated from other origins. Just like our soldiers who fight an imaginary enemy, we have no identity and we are far better off to identify ourselves as "not American", then to try to puport we are something else. And so the real contrast between us and Americans is that they are a democratic nation, while we are not. "It is just that simple." Shell Busey

[PocketRocket]

Hi Pocketrocket,

Hi, Gabriel. Nice chattin' with you.

Perhaps some of us like to examine things on a deeper level than your post, which has about as much depth as a Labatt beer commercial.

I am wounded!!! Really, I thought it was FAR deeper than a Labatt's commercial. At the very LEAST, it shows the depth and insight of a Molson ad...

Furthermore, I didn't see anyone in here bitching and moaning about Canadian identity, merely we're trying to examine it and understand why it has become what it is, and perhaps where it's going.

At least a few of the posts in this thread hold some of the aforementioned "bitching and moaning".

Sorry if that phrase offended you. It was unintentionally harsh, I guess, but a result of seeing/hearing similar topics debated on forums, on radio, and on TV. It seems like this topic has been hashed and re-hashed for years.

But the "examination" is part of what I was railing against. As individuals, do we wake up in the morning and regularly ask ourselves "Who am I, and what makes me distinct from everyone else?". I don't think so. Each of us is who he or she is, and I believe that the vast majority of us just get up and get on with our lives every day.

Excuse me if I don't simplify my understanding of Canadian culture to the content of your post.

I don't see the post as being over-simplifying. I think attempting to examine such a nebulous concept as identity is borderline-futile.

Tell me first what "identity" means, define the word, and how it applies to a nation, and then we'll at least have a starting point.

Lastly, what does the examination of Canadian culture have to do with worldwide perception of Canadians? I don't see how other nations' perceptions of Canada, or perceptions of their own cultures, factors into this thread.

Well, Gabe, a guess that goes back to a definition of the word "identity". How do I identify with you??? Well, based on our first exchange, you seem to be intelligent, well-spoken and respectful, which are a few things we have in common. (Sorry if that seems self-congratulatory. I don't consider myself a rocket-scientist, but I manage to tie my own shoes and cope well with most mental challenges that come my way.....)

IOW, our identities as individuals is often tempered by how we are perceived by others, particularly when those perception get back to us via criticism, rumor, and any other number of ways.

How do you as an individual "identify" yourself??? Answer that for me, if you would, and then we'll come back and try apply the same criterion to the national-identity thing.

But rather than debate with each other the depth of our perception or some such, let's get down to brass tacks and look at the word itself.

Dictionary.com describes "Identity" as follows.....

1. the state or fact of remaining the same one or ones, as under varying aspects or conditions: The identity of the fingerprints on the gun with those on file provided evidence that he was the killer.

2. the condition of being oneself or itself, and not another: He doubted his own identity.

3. condition or character as to who a person or what a thing is: a case of mistaken identity.

4. the state or fact of being the same one as described.

5. the sense of self, providing sameness and continuity in personality over time and sometimes disturbed in mental illnesses, as schizophrenia.

6. exact likeness in nature or qualities: an identity of interests.

7. an instance or point of sameness or likeness: to mistake resemblances for identities.

8. Logic. an assertion that two terms refer to the same thing.

9. Mathematics.

a. an equation that is valid for all values of its variables.

b. Also called identity element, unit element, unity. an element in a set such that the element operating on any other element of the set leaves the second element unchanged.

c. the property of a function or map such that each element is mapped into itself.

d. the function or map itself.

10. Australian Informal. an interesting, famous, or eccentric resident, usually of long standing in a community.

Synonyms:

5. individuality, personality, distinctiveness, uniqueness.

For our purposes, 1, 3 and 4 are non-starters. They are all simply a way of distinguishing one specific thing/person from another. "That's a bucket, not a shovel" or "That's John, not George".

Likewise, 6, 7 and 8 are useless to us as they are simply synonyms for "similarity" or "sameness".

Perhaps these definitions influenced my inclusion of how other countries perceive us, as all these apply to how something is viewed from an onlooker's vantage point.

9 and 10 are also out of the equation (pardon the unintentional pun) as one is related to mathematical terminology, and the other to an Australian dialectic usage of the word.

So I guess what we are looking at is confined to 2 and 5, both of which apply to how a person views himself.

From this standpoint, it comes back to my statement that I see myself as being a tiny part of Canada, and see Canada itself in simple terms; a country of resepectful and respectable people who are largely kind, generous and helpful. A nation with many regions and cultures, each of which carries a myriad of different styles of music, quisine, fashion and even language.

To be Canadian is NOT to be pinned down to an archetype, but rather to be one of a large variety of different peoples.

At this point in my morning, that's about as god an answer as I can give. More coffee my fuel more ideas, but this at least serves as a starting point for us.

[bush_cheney2004]

I'm confused with what you're suggesting here - how does Canada's late creation of the CCRF lead to notion of "visible minority" (a term I usually can't stand, that reeks of left-wing victimization). Could you please elaborate on this?

Well, as you have already indicated, the term "visible minority" is flawed on so many levels as to be laughable, but for the attributes of "identity", the term is inadequate, incomplete, racist, and presumptuous beyond the intended political context. The political context should be "minority" without ill defined, superficial (racist) qualification.

[Dave_ON]

I'm disappointed by the resistance that many Canadians have towards acknowledging and being proud of the commonalities we have with America. Many of our concepts of freedom and democracy are not just dinner table talking points, but fundamental parts of our lives. Obviously they have manifested themselves into different political systems, but these common broad themes are significant. Freedom of speech, freedom of association, freedom of religion, etc. Not many countries in this world vigilantly enforce these freedoms like Canada and the USA.

{/quote]

Indeed it's hard to get inside the Canadian psyche on this one. I can only guess that it harkens back the founding of our country, we saw the American Manifest Destiny and it scared the cream cheese out of us, so we banded together in order to preserve our way of life. Our Americanization has been gradual, almost insidiously so. Many Canadians don't realize how similar we are to Americans, and the very thought of it is anathema.

Interesting to note that the initial US attempts to conquer (I believe they referred to it as liberating) Canadian colonies failed. Little did the Americans realize that they only had to wait 100 or so years and we'd surrender to them without a single shot fired. The American conquest of Canada turned out to be a cultural one rather than a military one.

Although I agree with your opinion that we're typically more laissez-faire up here, I find the terms we learned in high school about the USA being a melting pot and Canada being a mosaic aren't reflective of reality. America, if anything, is more multicultural than Canada (although unofficially).

Thanks for your reply.

You are quite correct that there is a great deal of multiculturalism in the US. But I still maintain that our approaches are vastly different. In Canada you do not need to give up your original, language, culture or community. You can exist in you bubble and never learn English, the national anthem, who the PM is, or have maple syrup on your pancakes (I find this last one to be particularly reprehensible)

In the US you can't really function if you're not English speaking, there are many, many Spanish speaking individuals in the US but English remains their sole official language. Integration is expected. There are many other cultural groups in the US but those cultures adapt to fit into and integrate into the culture at large.

Edited November 6, 2009 by Dave_ON

[Michael Hardner]

Dave_ON

You are quite correct that there is a great deal of multiculturalism in the US. But I still maintain that our approaches are vastly different. In Canada you do not need to give up your original, language, culture or community. You can exist in you bubble and never learn English, the national anthem, who the PM is, or have maple syrup on your pancakes (I find this last one to be particularly reprehensible)

In the US you can't really function if you're not English speaking, there are many, many Spanish speaking individuals in the US but English remains their sole official language. Integration is expected. There are many other cultural groups in the US but those cultures adapt to fit into and integrate into the culture at large.

I think the idea that the immigrant experience is vastly different between Canada and the US is a myth. Multiculturalism has more government support in Canada but how does that manifest itself in the everyday lives of immigrants ? I can't imagine it's much but I've never been an immigrant to Canada or the US.

[Dave_ON]

Well, as you have already indicated, the term "visible minority" is flawed on so many levels as to be laughable, but for the attributes of "identity", the term is inadequate, incomplete, racist, and presumptuous beyond the intended political context. The political context should be "minority" without ill defined, superficial (racist) qualification.

Indeed the term is exclusionary by it's very nature. Further it leaves out the umm invisible minorities (for lack of a better term) such as gays and unicorns.

[bush_cheney2004]

You are quite correct that there is a great deal of multiculturalism in the US. But I still maintain that our approaches are vastly different. In Canada you do not need to give up your original, language, culture or community. You can exist in you bubble and never learn English, the national anthem, who the PM is, or have maple syrup on your pancakes (I find this last one to be particularly reprehensible)

Yet there are more spoken languages in the US, more acadenic studies of language, and more multi-lingual media sources.

In the US you can't really function if you're not English speaking, there are many, many Spanish speaking individuals in the US but English remains their sole official language. Integration is expected. There are many other cultural groups in the US but those cultures adapt to fit into and integrate into the culture at large.

Unlike Canada, there is no official federal language in the USA.

Edited November 6, 2009 by bush_cheney2004

[Dave_ON]

Unlike Canada, there is no official federal language in the USA.

Of all the things not to define and enshrine this one seems odd. Clearly I was mistaken, it seems to me it comes up in congress with great regularity however, clearly it's failed so far.

So if that's the case if I were an American citizen would I have the right to request goverment documents sent to me in a language other than English? Could I request court documents be printed in Spanish?

[bush_cheney2004]

Of all the things not to define and enshrine this one seems odd. Clearly I was mistaken, it seems to me it comes up in congress with great regularity however, clearly it's failed so far.

...and I find it odd that such an exclusionary practice enshrined in Canadian law and trumpeted as "multi-culturalism". Se habla Espanol?

So if that's the case if I were an American citizen would I have the right to request goverment documents sent to me in a language other than English? Could I request court documents be printed in Spanish?

Yes, but the translation need can be met in many ways, including interpreters. America was "multi-cultural" before Canadians even knew the word existed.

[bush_cheney2004]

Indeed the term is exclusionary by it's very nature. Further it leaves out the umm invisible minorities (for lack of a better term) such as gays and unicorns.

Agreed...it is baffling how such an ignorant term came to be, and even more baffling that it exists to this day.

[Dave_ON]

...and I find it odd that such an exclusionary practice enshrined in Canadian law and trumpeted as "multi-culturalism". Se habla Espanol?

{/quote]

Declaring an official Language in not unique to Canada. More countries have done so than those who have not, generally in the interest of saving money on translation more than a disregard for multiculturalism. Multicultural and multilingual are not one and the same.

It's doubtful the US hasn't declared an official language out of a concern for excluding others as much as they didn't feel it was necessary. That will likely change as the Spanish population continues to grow.

Yes, but the translation need can be met in many ways, including interpreters. America was "multi-cultural" before Canadians even knew the word existed.

It turns out upon further research that English is the official language in about 27 states and has been so for several decades. One amusing exception was that for a short time the State of Illinois official language was changed from English to "American". I haven't been able to confirm the veracity of this as yet. I guess it would appear about half of America was "multi-cultural" Before Canadians even knew the word existed.

[bush_cheney2004]

Declaring an official Language in not unique to Canada. More countries have done so than those who have not, generally in the interest of saving money on translation more than a disregard for multiculturalism. Multicultural and multilingual are not one and the same.

True, but it's still funny as hell given the spirit of "multi-culturalism".

It's doubtful the US hasn't declared an official language out of a concern for excluding others as much as they didn't feel it was necessary. That will likely change as the Spanish population continues to grow.

Maybe, but Canada did so to placate one province.

It turns out upon further research that English is the official language in about 27 states and has been so for several decades. One amusing exception was that for a short time the State of Illinois official language was changed from English to "American". I haven't been able to confirm the veracity of this as yet. I guess it would appear about half of America was "multi-cultural" Before Canadians even knew the word existed.

Perhaps the word "federal" escaped your attention.

[wyly]

Dave_ON

I think the idea that the immigrant experience is vastly different between Canada and the US is a myth. Multiculturalism has more government support in Canada but how does that manifest itself in the everyday lives of immigrants ? I can't imagine it's much but I've never been an immigrant to Canada or the US.

I'm an immigrant...I can't speak for other immigrants but I've not noticed anything different in my life but them I'm not a recent immigrant it might be different for late comers..

[wyly]

I guess it would appear about half of America was "multi-cultural" Before Canadians even knew the word existed.

we were always multicultural as are the Americans and any country that has an immigrant population...we just made it formal by sticking a label to it...

[wyly]

Really, so the Constitution, the Crown, the anthem, the political boundaries, the people that make up this country, the language groups that make up this country, the people who have worked for and died in the name of this country are all imaginary? That's completely ridiculous.

strange that other countries know the difference between Canadians and Americans but Canadians have a problem with it...

[Guest American Woman]

strange that other countries know the difference between Canadians and Americans but Canadians have a problem with it...

Do other countries know the difference? Because it seems as if they can't tell the difference between a Canadian and an American unless one has a maple leaf on their backpack .....

[Dave_ON]

Do other countries know the difference? Because it seems as if they can't tell the difference between a Canadian and an American unless one has a maple leaf on their backpack .....

They also know when we say "about" or "eh"

[Guest American Woman]

They also know when we say "about" or "eh"

You mean "aboot," don't'cha? And plenty of Americans say "eh," too.

Seriously, though. Someone from another country doesn't recognize those subtleties. They don't know an American from a Canadian from a Brit from an Aussie from a what-ever.

Edited November 6, 2009 by American Woman

[wyly]

Do other countries know the difference? Because it seems as if they can't tell the difference between a Canadian and an American unless one has a maple leaf on their backpack .....

and I can't tell an idiot from a genius until they open their mouth...

[Guest American Woman]

and I can't tell an idiot from a genius until they open their mouth...

Fine, but if you couldn't tell an idiot from a genius unless they had their IQ displayed, then you'd have a similar situation to the one I described.

Fact is, without the maple leaf flag on their backpack, those foreigners you refer to wouldn't be able to tell a Canadian from an American, even after they open their mouth.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Fine, but if you couldn't tell an idiot from a genius unless they had their IQ displayed, then you'd have a similar situation to the one I described.

Fact is, without the maple leaf flag on their backpack, those foreigners you refer to wouldn't be able to tell a Canadian from an American, even after they open their mouth.

Not sure about that. A lot of my American friends have accents that would betray them. Two of them are from Texas, and one from West Virginia, killer accents!