Canadian Identity: un-American

[Gabriel]

Brazilian and Argentinian multiculturalism cannot be compared to American or Canadian multiculturalism. America and Canada represent much more diversity, with significantly larger portions of our populations being composed of people who would identify themselves as minorities (visible or otherwise). Why are you debating this point? Do you dispute that America is the most multicultural country (with a handful of other countries being somewhat comparable, including Canada)?

Clearly you are trolling me, I never said that the Canadian and American cultures are uniform, rather I recognized that our commonalities outweigh our differences. You are obviously of the camp that prefers to focus on the differences between these two countries, and I'll further speculate that you are one of those people who largely defines Canadian identity by how it ISN'T American.

In all seriousness, I'm here to have a serious discussion with intelligent people and hopefully learn a thing or two from the worthwhile contributors of this forum. Continuing this exchange with you fulfils none of these desires. I'm not here to teach, I'm here to learn. If you aren't aware of the commonalities between Canada and America, then perhaps you shouldn't be participate in this thread. Go bother someone else.

[wyly]

Brazilian and Argentinian multiculturalism cannot be compared to American or Canadian multiculturalism. America and Canada represent much more diversity, with significantly larger portions of our populations being composed of people who would identify themselves as minorities (visible or otherwise). Why are you debating this point? Do you dispute that America is the most multicultural country (with a handful of other countries being somewhat comparable, including Canada)?

Clearly you are trolling me, I never said that the Canadian and American cultures are uniform, rather I recognized that our commonalities outweigh our differences. You are obviously of the camp that prefers to focus on the differences between these two countries, and I'll further speculate that you are one of those people who largely defines Canadian identity by how it ISN'T American.

In all seriousness, I'm here to have a serious discussion with intelligent people and hopefully learn a thing or two from the worthwhile contributors of this forum. Continuing this exchange with you fulfils none of these desires. I'm not here to teach, I'm here to learn. If you aren't aware of the commonalities between Canada and America, then perhaps you shouldn't be participate in this thread. Go bother someone else.

so someone who points out your errors is trolling...nice rules, why even post in a forum, the wrong place to be if you're looking for someone to pat you on the back...

Brazil is as equally diverse as the USA if not more so, only about 50% of brazil can defined as of white/eurpoeon/ME origins the rest are from all parts of the globe, and Argentina very much resembles Canada, just substitute Italians for Brits as the predominate ethnic group...

if we compare similarities every culture on the globe shares common values, it's only our differences that make us unique and different from americans Americans...

[Gabriel]

Brazil is as equally diverse as the USA if not more so, only about 50% of brazil can defined as of white/eurpoeon/ME origins the rest are from all parts of the globe, and Argentina very much resembles Canada, just substitute Italians for Brits as the predominate ethnic group...

How can you expect me to have a serious conversation with you when you make an absurd claim that perhaps Brazil is more multicultural than the USA? The USA represents countless more languages, cultures, religions, ethnicities, etc. The USA takes in more immigrants legally than the rest of the world combines annually (and has been doing so for a long time). There are no cities of similar multiculturalism in Brazil such as NYC, LA, Miami, etc (Toronto, as well, Canada's multiculturalism eclipses Brazil's). Either you're ignorant or simple. Either way, there's no point in continuing this conversation with you.

I still hope other will make intelligent contributions to this thread, as I find this subject fascinating.

Edited November 4, 2009 by Gabriel

[Dave_ON]

How can you expect me to have a serious conversation with you when you make an absurd claim that perhaps Brazil is more multicultural than the USA? The USA represents countless more languages, cultures, religions, ethnicities, etc. The USA takes in more immigrants legally than the rest of the world combines annually (and has been doing so for a long time). There are no cities of similar multiculturalism in Brazil such as NYC, LA, Miami, etc (Toronto, as well, Canada's multiculturalism eclipses Brazil's). Either you're ignorant or simple. Either way, there's no point in continuing this conversation with you.

I still hope other will make intelligent contributions to this thread, as I find this subject fascinating.

I'm afraid you're wasting your breath (err typing skills) on wyly. You'll find him pugnacious and antagonistic and the conversation quickly devolves to such statements as "you suck".

Be that as it may I would tend to agree with your basic premise that Canadians have more in common with Americans that we like to admit, with several caveats of course. We do embrace our British heritage; our country was founded in the interests of preserving our heritage and ties with the British Empire. Many American citizens who were loyal to the king fled to Canada so they could remain so. This is a fascinating point as if you look at it historically the American culture essentially began with “We’re not British”. They’re system of government, taxation, administration all of it quite “un-British”. Clearly they’re culture has grown since then however, it is interesting to note. As Canadians, we’re still stuck in the “what we aren’t” phase and have yet to move on to the “what we are” phase, if we ever actually do remains to be seen.

So why then the cultural crisis? I feel it’s quite simple; we have unwittingly become far more “Americanized” than we care to admit yet we still insist on holding onto the notion that we’re more British than we are American. We need look no further than the programs we copy from the US, Canada’s next top model, Canadian Idol, etc. Slap some maple syrup on it and suddenly it’s Canadian.

Honestly I think we’re at a cross roads, we’re caught between our history and our present cultural circumstance and we’re trying to figure out how to move forward. The American influence was inevitable given our close proximity, relations, shared media, trade etc. By the same token the British influence inevitably lessens with each generation we remain separate entities.

However, I don’t think we can ignore our fundamental differences. For one we’re more socially progressive than Americans tend to be. This is due in large part to our different approaches to multi-culturalism; melting pot vs. mosaic. We also take ourselves significantly less seriously than they regard themselves. They feel the need to define, enshrine and categorize all manner of things. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness; unless your Black or Gay or Cherokee of course. Canadians have a much more laissez faire approach to life, live and let live, no need to “make it official” just simply let it be.

[bush_cheney2004]

.... They feel the need to define, enshrine and categorize all manner of things. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness; unless your Black or Gay or Cherokee of course. Canadians have a much more laissez faire approach to life, live and let live, no need to “make it official” just simply let it be.

All good points until I got to this. It is/was the very lack of such definitions and categorizations that led to present circumstances, with Canada playing catch-up with such things as a repatriated constitution and a real Charter of Rights. That's why Canada still has the curious notion of "visible minority" kicking around. Blacks, Gays, Asians, First Nations, etc. certainly did not find Canada's "laissez faire approach" to be ideal either.

So yes, the US Constitution made things official, even when real circumstances were wrong.

[Dave_ON]

All good points until I got to this. It is/was the very lack of such definitions and categorizations that led to present circumstances, with Canada playing catch-up with such things as a repatriated constitution and a real Charter of Rights. That's why Canada still has the curious notion of "visible minority" kicking around. Blacks, Gays, Asians, First Nations, etc. certainly did not find Canada's "laissez faire approach" to be ideal either.

So yes, the US Constitution made things official, even when real circumstances were wrong.

I can’t say that I disagree with your fundamental premise. But I think that further serves to make my point about our fundamental differences.

The very fact that this is all defined means by definition it is resistant to change, ergo progress. The upside of that is the rules are set, and everyone knows where they stand and a general inkling as to where they’re going, at least officially. Whether those definitions translate into actual practice is another matter entirely. Constitutional principles tend to ring hollow if not backed up by anecdotal evidence.

The same is also true of the Canadian approach; the French word Laissez sounds remarkably close to the English word lazy. Are Canadians more culturally progressive out of principle or just because it’s easy? My thought is it’s the latter. The upside is less conflict, at least on the surface. The downside is it demonstrates a fundamental lack of direction and conviction that has led us to the identity crisis we have today.

[wyly]

How can you expect me to have a serious conversation with you when you make an absurd claim that perhaps Brazil is more multicultural than the USA? The USA represents countless more languages, cultures, religions, ethnicities, etc. The USA takes in more immigrants legally than the rest of the world combines annually (and has been doing so for a long time). There are no cities of similar multiculturalism in Brazil such as NYC, LA, Miami, etc (Toronto, as well, Canada's multiculturalism eclipses Brazil's). Either you're ignorant or simple. Either way, there's no point in continuing this conversation with you.

I still hope other will make intelligent contributions to this thread, as I find this subject fascinating.

it hurts when you're wrong doesn't it LOL...you come in with a preconceived idea you know it all only to find you don't, you throw out facts without checking them up..

here's another on the USA and it's immigration, Canada by porportion takes in more immigrants than the the USA! USA would need to double it's immgration to match Canada...and for total number the EU takes in about half million immigrants per year than the USA...

[Guest American Woman]

here's another on the USA and it's immigration, Canada by porportion takes in more immigrants than the the USA! USA would need to double it's immgration to match Canada...and for total number the EU takes in about half million immigrants per year than the USA...

When one looks as the population of Canada vs. the population of the U.S., it makes sense that Canada would be taking in more 'per population' (I'm assuming that's what you mean by "by proportion"); but out of curiosity, I wonder how many of those Canada takes in stay and live in Canada compared to how many immigrants stay and live in the U.S. One more thought: just because the U.S. is taking in less immigrants now, doesn't mean we were in the past, and therefore it doesn't mean we are less culturally diversified. In other words, I wonder what percentage of the people living in Canada are immigrants and what percentage of the people living in the United States are immigrants.

Furthermore, "immigrant" and "different culture" are two different things, so one would need more than base immigration statistics to draw conclusions in regards to "cultural diversity."

[PocketRocket]

Why all this concern with national identity??? Among the majority of nations, Canada is respected. THEY don't seem to have any problem with accepting us the way we are. Do we really need some all-encompassing national trait to distinguish us from all other countries??? Do you hear Swedes asking what makes them different from Finlanders??? Chinese asking what distinguishes them from Taiwan??? Are people in Costa Rica wondering what makes them different from Belizians??? Nope. All these countries seem to just accept that they are who they are, and get on with whatever they're doing.

I cannot think of any other single nation whose inhabitants bitch and moan about whether or not they can think up reasons that they are distinctive.

We have good land, good people. We have cold winters with beautifully bleak scenery, warm summers with lush forests, wonderful colours in autumn, and sweet springtime with the aroma of 6 months of frozen dog poop thawing

We have a population that is generally respectable and respectful. We, as a nation, are tolerant of differences among our own people, and among other nations. We're non-aggressive, friendly and helpful. We have a wide variety of food and beverages. We have some fine beer and wine made right here at home. We have hockey, the king of sports, a game at which we have reigned supreme practically forever.

We are the True North, Strong and Free.

Do I need a definition of what it means to be Canadian???

Do I need to take on some affectation to distinguish me from all other nations' people???

Hell, no!!!

I know who I am, where I live, who my neighbors are, what I like and dislike.

I harbor a great love for my homeland, Canada.

That's all I really need to know about my identity, or that of my country.

[charter.rights]

Canadian identity is a myth. It took a beer commercial to try to define what a Canadian may be....."I am Canadian!"

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Canadian identity is a myth. It took a beer commercial to try to define what a Canadian may be....."I am Canadian!"

Yeah thats right, we are nobody and just like everyone else.

[wyly]

Why all this concern with national identity??? Among the majority of nations, Canada is respected. THEY don't seem to have any problem with accepting us the way we are. Do we really need some all-encompassing national trait to distinguish us from all other countries??? Do you hear Swedes asking what makes them different from Finlanders??? Chinese asking what distinguishes them from Taiwan??? Are people in Costa Rica wondering what makes them different from Belizians??? Nope. All these countries seem to just accept that they are who they are, and get on with whatever they're doing.

I cannot think of any other single nation whose inhabitants bitch and moan about whether or not they can think up reasons that they are distinctive.

We have good land, good people. We have cold winters with beautifully bleak scenery, warm summers with lush forests, wonderful colours in autumn, and sweet springtime with the aroma of 6 months of frozen dog poop thawing

We have a population that is generally respectable and respectful. We, as a nation, are tolerant of differences among our own people, and among other nations. We're non-aggressive, friendly and helpful. We have a wide variety of food and beverages. We have some fine beer and wine made right here at home. We have hockey, the king of sports, a game at which we have reigned supreme practically forever.

We are the True North, Strong and Free.

Do I need a definition of what it means to be Canadian???

Do I need to take on some affectation to distinguish me from all other nations' people???

Hell, no!!!

I know who I am, where I live, who my neighbors are, what I like and dislike.

I harbor a great love for my homeland, Canada.

That's all I really need to know about my identity, or that of my country.

thank you i agree

[Dave_ON]

I cannot think of any other single nation whose inhabitants bitch and moan about whether or not they can think up reasons that they are distinctive.

Former USSR, Former Yugoslavia Republic, China/Tibet to name a few. Also you missed a very obvious distinction in many of your comparison, namely language. The problem with the US and Canada, we both speak English, sure the 'mericans decided to get creative with their spelling but it's essentially the same.

We have a population that is generally respectable and respectful. We, as a nation, are tolerant of differences among our own people, and among other nations. We're non-aggressive, friendly and helpful. We have a wide variety of food and beverages. We have some fine beer and wine made right here at home. We have hockey, the king of sports, a game at which we have reigned supreme practically forever.

All true but hardly indicative of a national identity. We are a nation of regions, each suspicious of the other and each trying to make sure they get as big a piece of the pie as all the rest. Mutual benefit isn't the driving force, self interest is. Nations are born out of commonality; our founding commonality was mutual protection from the impending American threat to our sovereignty. That reason d’être has long since passed, what do we have left?

We are the True North, Strong and Free.

This is a phrase that has always rung true for me, and really it's about the only thing we can all agree on.

[bush_cheney2004]

....here's another on the USA and it's immigration, Canada by porportion takes in more immigrants than the the USA! USA would need to double it's immgration to match Canada...and for total number the EU takes in about half million immigrants per year than the USA...

Further proof that one should never use "porportion" to try and win a penis measuring contest.

Hence.....34,000,000 vs. 300,000,000.

[Oleg Bach]

Who in their right mind would want to dawn the identity of a nation that can not even wage it's own war but instead simply parrots the Americans? Who wants to identify with a nation or government that brags about growning the stronges pot on the planet? Who wants to identify with a nation and government that allows their friends in buisness not to come up with the sorely needed vacine, but is more that willing to take a billion bucks for a job half done? Who wants to be part of a system that has a social safety net that exploits and uses the poor by addicting them to all sorts of substances so the rich can live on the backs of the lowly like demi-gods? Need I say more?

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Who in their right mind would want to dawn the identity of a nation that can not even wage it's own war but instead simply parrots the Americans? Who wants to identify with a nation or government that brags about growning the stronges pot on the planet? Who wants to identify with a nation and government that allows their friends in buisness not to come up with the sorely needed vacine, but is more that willing to take a billion bucks for a job half done? Who wants to be part of a system that has a social safety net that exploits and uses the poor by addicting them to all sorts of substances so the rich can live on the backs of the lowly like demi-gods? Need I say more?

Yeah Oleg I guess you should move south and live with those folks. You can say what you want, just try to not lump us all together into a nice little herd that you think you can dictate to.

[charter.rights]

Yeah thats right, we are nobody and just like everyone else.

Right'o. You're at home on native land.

[Gabriel]

I'm afraid you're wasting your breath (err typing skills) on wyly. You'll find him pugnacious and antagonistic and the conversation quickly devolves to such statements as "you suck".

Be that as it may I would tend to agree with your basic premise that Canadians have more in common with Americans that we like to admit, with several caveats of course. We do embrace our British heritage; our country was founded in the interests of preserving our heritage and ties with the British Empire. Many American citizens who were loyal to the king fled to Canada so they could remain so. This is a fascinating point as if you look at it historically the American culture essentially began with “We’re not British”. They’re system of government, taxation, administration all of it quite “un-British”. Clearly they’re culture has grown since then however, it is interesting to note. As Canadians, we’re still stuck in the “what we aren’t” phase and have yet to move on to the “what we are” phase, if we ever actually do remains to be seen.

So why then the cultural crisis? I feel it’s quite simple; we have unwittingly become far more “Americanized” than we care to admit yet we still insist on holding onto the notion that we’re more British than we are American. We need look no further than the programs we copy from the US, Canada’s next top model, Canadian Idol, etc. Slap some maple syrup on it and suddenly it’s Canadian.

Honestly I think we’re at a cross roads, we’re caught between our history and our present cultural circumstance and we’re trying to figure out how to move forward. The American influence was inevitable given our close proximity, relations, shared media, trade etc. By the same token the British influence inevitably lessens with each generation we remain separate entities.

However, I don’t think we can ignore our fundamental differences. For one we’re more socially progressive than Americans tend to be. This is due in large part to our different approaches to multi-culturalism; melting pot vs. mosaic. We also take ourselves significantly less seriously than they regard themselves. They feel the need to define, enshrine and categorize all manner of things. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness; unless your Black or Gay or Cherokee of course. Canadians have a much more laissez faire approach to life, live and let live, no need to “make it official” just simply let it be.

Hi Dave,

Yes, clearly wyly is a simple person whom I will not waste anymore time on.

I agree with virtually everything you've said. As far as anecdote goes, I've spoken with some American who speak negatively of those loyalists who fled to Canada, not-so-subtly implying that Canada is a "nation of cowards". That being said, these American I'm referring to aren't the intellectual type.

I'm disappointed by the resistance that many Canadians have towards acknowledging and being proud of the commonalities we have with America. Many of our concepts of freedom and democracy are not just dinner table talking points, but fundamental parts of our lives. Obviously they have manifested themselves into different political systems, but these common broad themes are significant. Freedom of speech, freedom of association, freedom of religion, etc. Not many countries in this world vigilantly enforce these freedoms like Canada and the USA.

We have many economic similarities, too. From property laws to our centralized banking system, to our regulatory agencies (i.e. FDA and Health Canada), there are many commonalities. Many major institutions that we are familiar with in Canada have a similar counterpart down south.

The only part where I slightly disagree with you is the mosaic/melting pot concept. Although I do believe that Canada is slightly more mosaic-ish than America, I think both Canada and America are, on-the-whole, very mosaic-ish. Travel to any big city in the USA and you'll see many cultures represented. Deal with any large company in the USA and you'll see many cultures represented. There are private religious/language schools, tons of ethnic restaurants, HUGE amounts of special interest charities/organizations/NGOs, etc. The majority of Canadians I speak with who have the impression that somehow America Americanizes all of its migrant ferociously are simply out-of-touch with reality. There are so many distinct Americans cities with distinct cultural flavours, and of course distinct parts of American cities with distinct cultural flavours. All big cities have many cool cultural sub-communities - Latin/Hispanic, Black, Caribbean, Jewish, Arabic/Muslim, Russian, Indian/Pakistani, East Asian/Chinese/Vietnamese, etc, etc, etc.

Although I agree with your opinion that we're typically more laissez-faire up here, I find the terms we learned in high school about the USA being a melting pot and Canada being a mosaic aren't reflective of reality. America, if anything, is more multicultural than Canada (although unofficially).

Thanks for your reply.

Edited November 6, 2009 by Gabriel

[Gabriel]

All good points until I got to this. It is/was the very lack of such definitions and categorizations that led to present circumstances, with Canada playing catch-up with such things as a repatriated constitution and a real Charter of Rights. That's why Canada still has the curious notion of "visible minority" kicking around. Blacks, Gays, Asians, First Nations, etc. certainly did not find Canada's "laissez faire approach" to be ideal either.

So yes, the US Constitution made things official, even when real circumstances were wrong.

I'm confused with what you're suggesting here - how does Canada's late creation of the CCRF lead to notion of "visible minority" (a term I usually can't stand, that reeks of left-wing victimization). Could you please elaborate on this?

To Dave, I'm also uncertain that Canada's dealings with our Native populations are superior to that of America's dealings with its Natives. Although the Native issue is one I'm very unfamiliar with.

[Gabriel]

Why all this concern with national identity??? Among the majority of nations, Canada is respected. THEY don't seem to have any problem with accepting us the way we are. Do we really need some all-encompassing national trait to distinguish us from all other countries??? Do you hear Swedes asking what makes them different from Finlanders??? Chinese asking what distinguishes them from Taiwan??? Are people in Costa Rica wondering what makes them different from Belizians??? Nope. All these countries seem to just accept that they are who they are, and get on with whatever they're doing.

I cannot think of any other single nation whose inhabitants bitch and moan about whether or not they can think up reasons that they are distinctive.

We have good land, good people. We have cold winters with beautifully bleak scenery, warm summers with lush forests, wonderful colours in autumn, and sweet springtime with the aroma of 6 months of frozen dog poop thawing

We have a population that is generally respectable and respectful. We, as a nation, are tolerant of differences among our own people, and among other nations. We're non-aggressive, friendly and helpful. We have a wide variety of food and beverages. We have some fine beer and wine made right here at home. We have hockey, the king of sports, a game at which we have reigned supreme practically forever.

We are the True North, Strong and Free.

Do I need a definition of what it means to be Canadian???

Do I need to take on some affectation to distinguish me from all other nations' people???

Hell, no!!!

I know who I am, where I live, who my neighbors are, what I like and dislike.

I harbor a great love for my homeland, Canada.

That's all I really need to know about my identity, or that of my country.

Hi Pocketrocket,

Perhaps some of us like to examine things on a deeper level than your post, which has about as much depth as a Labatt beer commercial. Furthermore, I didn't see anyone in here bitching and moaning about Canadian identity, merely we're trying to examine it and understand why it has become what it is, and perhaps where it's going. Excuse me if I don't simplify my understanding of Canadian culture to the content of your post. Lastly, what does the examination of Canadian culture have to do with worldwide perception of Canadians? I don't see how other nations' perceptions of Canada, or perceptions of their own cultures, factors into this thread.

Edited November 6, 2009 by Gabriel

[Gabriel]

Canadian identity is a myth. It took a beer commercial to try to define what a Canadian may be....."I am Canadian!"

Do you really believe that? You honestly think there aren't strong traits to Canadian culture that separate us from most of the world (in either a positive or negative light)? I'm not really sure how a Canadian can say such a thing. I'm also unsure how anyone can take you seriously in a thread about Canadian culture when you say something so vacuous and plain wrong.

[charter.rights]

Do you really believe that? You honestly think there aren't strong traits to Canadian culture that separate us from most of the world (in either a positive or negative light)? I'm not really sure how a Canadian can say such a thing. I'm also unsure how anyone can take you seriously in a thread about Canadian culture when you say something so vacuous and plain wrong.

There is no such thing as "Canadian culture". It is a myth just like "Canadian identity".....unless you want to talk about beer and hockey....and then it is just mass conditioning through advertising...

[Smallc]

There is no such thing as "Canadian culture". It is a myth just like "Canadian identity".....unless you want to talk about beer and hockey....and then it is just mass conditioning through advertising...

Really, so the Constitution, the Crown, the anthem, the political boundaries, the people that make up this country, the language groups that make up this country, the people who have worked for and died in the name of this country are all imaginary? That's completely ridiculous.

[charter.rights]

Really, so the Constitution, the Crown, the anthem, the political boundaries, the people that make up this country, the language groups that make up this country, the people who have worked for and died in the name of this country are all imaginary? That's completely ridiculous.

All are foreign.

The Constitution was approved by the Crown, which does not have origins in Canada, but is based on an act of British Parliament made in 1867. Nor does the Crown act on behalf of Canada except in an imaginary way, as a figure head, and a mythical overseer of government (that will never oversee government).

The "political boundaries" are an imagined line delineating an vast land mass essentially not belonging to us, but still under the legal ownership of First Nations. Even treaties under which we acquired ~some~ rights are subject to First Nation interest. What country anywhere else in the world has an imaginary figure head, as head of state, mythical commander in chief of its armed forces, and requires approval by a non-citizen indigenous group for approval for development? Disney Land does a better job of making up fantasies.

Save and except the various indigenous languages - most of which are near extinct - there are no languages (save Quebecois) that are connected to any culture. Metis, which could be considered a true evolved cultural and language (michef), does not belong to Canada, and have a cultural independence defined by our own Charter of Rights and Restrictions, Limitations and Reductions.

Those whom have worked for and died for the entity called Canada have been duped by the myth of nationhood and those whom have died, died in vain. Canada is a Crown Corporation whose charge it is to redistribute the wealth, on behalf of the Queen of Canada. There is no cultural significance or identity in any of it, unless of course you believe in the mass brainwashing of advertising....then of course by all means make your declaration "I am Canadian" and have another beer......

[Smallc]

Pfft, wow. That's not even worth a response. Your very narrow very imaginary definition of a culture and an identity isn't all that realistic. It's not really up to you alone to decide, especially when you're so ill informed when it comes to the origins of Canada, the Constitution, and the reality of the Crown in Canada.

Don't expect anymore responses. I'd be better off arguing with a tree.