Canadian Identity: un-American

[Guest American Woman]

Not sure about that. A lot of my American friends have accents that would betray them. Two of them are from Texas, and one from West Virginia, killer accents!

And English-speaking people would recognize those regional accents, but someone who doesn't speak English as a first language wouldn't necessarily recognize it, and most likely wouldn't.

Why do you think Canadians feel as if they have to wear the Maple Leaf in order to let people know they aren't Americans when they travel? It's because otherwise people wouldn't know.

When I travel to non-English speaking countries, people don't automatically know I'm an American; and when I'm with people from Britain or Canada they don't know I'm not British or Canadian, too, until I tell them. Just because I speak English, they don't know which country I'm from. In fact, people have not even assumed I was from an English-speaking country when I've been abroad. I've been mistaken for German and Scandinavian, as well as British and Canadian.

Fact is, foreigners cannot tell a Canadian from an American because of the "differences" between us, as wyly was suggesting.

[g_bambino]

.....there was much catching up to do.

That's a rather odd interpretation of "catching up", BC. The phrase usually requires a comparative benchmark apart from the subject; it's rather hard to explain how the subject needs to catch up to itself. So, I still find your choice of words suspect.

[g_bambino]

I see....lalalalalalala...you can't hear me......

Is that all you have?

To the contrary I know much more about the history and origins of Canada, and what constitutes culture than all the myths you perpetrate. Canada is not a nation in the same way the US is. Our constitution did not arrive by the will of the people but had to be signed by the CEO of the corporation - The Queen. That is no different that a company charter that provide certain rights for its investors, its management and employees.

Culture must be represented by icons. We have no icons. Those we claim as our own have been stolen from other cultures, or inaccurately appropriated from other origins. Just like our soldiers who fight an imaginary enemy, we have no identity and we are far better off to identify ourselves as "not American", then to try to puport we are something else. And so the real contrast between us and Americans is that they are a democratic nation, while we are not. "It is just that simple." Shell Busey

I think one has the right to choose not to hear you any more, given what a waste of time it generally is to give you any attention. But, to amuse you, I'll donate this little bit of my time:

The core document of the constitution - the Constitution Act 1867 - was drafted by Canadians - you know, the Fathers of Confederation? - and was passed by the elected representatives of the populace in each of the three provincial legislatures - New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, and the Province of Canada - before being ratified by the parliament at Westminster. Subsequent constitutional legislation has similarly been adopted, including the Statute of Westminster and Canada Act. So, forget the crap about the constitution being imposed on us by a forceful colonial overlord; Canadians had a say every step of the way.

Further; yes, our national symbols have evolved out of those inherited from France and Britain. But, so what? The US - which you chose as a comparison - similarly employs symbols derived from overseas - namely, ancient Greece and Rome, the French Second Empire, and Britain (ever wonder where the tune to "My Country 'Tis of Thee" ever came from?). So, let's also part with this junk about Americans growing afresh out of nothing while we laboriously cart around the unwanted symbols of the forceful colonial overlord.

That leaves your theories ungrounded, flapping around in the wind rather like the toilet paper that is the only thing worth their being printed on.

[bush_cheney2004]

That's a rather odd interpretation of "catching up", BC. The phrase usually requires a comparative benchmark apart from the subject; it's rather hard to explain how the subject needs to catch up to itself. So, I still find your choice of words suspect.

Nonsense...Canada established the "benchmark" by itself as well.....and it is still striving to achieve it.

How about another Charlottetown?

[Sir Bandelot]

Canadian identity is not "un-American". In fact most Canadians do not dislike Americans, at all. What we really dislike is other Canadians, who want to turn us INTO Americans.

[PocketRocket]

The posts regarding Canadians wearing Maple Leafs on backpacks, etc, caused me to recall something I heard about a few years back. I think it was on CBC radio, but not entirely sure.

Anyway, some guy in the USA (California, if memory serves) had started pumpin out Maple Leaf emblems suitable for stitching on jackets, backpacks, etc. He supposedly made quite a bundle from Americans who wanted to travel abroad but were worried about hostility due to anti-American feelings stirred up by our friend GWBush.

I tried googling "Americans wearing maple leafs", but after flipping through a few pages, the only links I was getting were all forum-posts from this and other message boards.

Just got a bit of a chuckle out of it....

[g_bambino]

Nonsense...Canada established the "benchmark" by itself as well.....and it is still striving to achieve it.

Nonsense indeed; you equate "achieving a goal" with "catching up", as though the two terms were exclusively synonymous. They aren't.

[bush_cheney2004]

Nonsense indeed; you equate "achieving a goal" with "catching up", as though the two terms were exclusively synonymous. They aren't.

Don't put words in my posts...the history here is clear...and Canada isn't done yet. It isn't.

[bush_cheney2004]

I tried googling "Americans wearing maple leafs", but after flipping through a few pages, the only links I was getting were all forum-posts from this and other message boards.

Just got a bit of a chuckle out of it....

I think this is mostly a myth started by Canadians. I would certainly never do such a thing. What kind of person travels the world with national badges except the military and olympic athletes?

"Hi....I'm from Canada...see my backpack patch....eh? "

[g_bambino]

Don't put words in my posts...the history here is clear...and Canada isn't done yet. It isn't.

Er, okay, I'll continue on not putting words in your posts; I wasn't going to anyway. Perhaps it is you putting words in mine, though; the canard of Canada being "done", in particular. A nation is never "done"; they are not static creatures. All irrelevant to the point, however, that achieving a goal is not necessarily catching up. Sorry.

[c/e]

Edited November 7, 2009 by g_bambino

[bush_cheney2004]

Er, okay, I'll continue on not putting words in your posts; I wasn't going to anyway. Perhaps it is you putting words in mine, though; the canard of Canada being done, in particular. A nation is never "done"; they are not static creatures. Irrelevant to the point, though, that achieving a goal is not necessarily catching up. Sorry.

Don't be sorry...some day you will catch up to your tail....an "un-American" one at that.

...I think I will saunter over to the Canadian-ambivalence-over-prince-visit thread. (You can't make this stuff up!)

Edited November 7, 2009 by bush_cheney2004

[g_bambino]

Don't be sorry...some day you will catch up to your tail....an "un-American" one at that.

Oh, BC, there you go getting all cranky again and trying to bait with "un-American" this and "royal ass" that. It's okay; I know you well enough by now to recognise when you're offering a mea culpa in disguise. I accept your concession.

[bush_cheney2004]

Oh, BC, there you go getting all cranky again and trying to bait with "un-American" this and "royal ass" that. It's okay; I know you well enough by now to recognise when you're offering a mea culpa in disguise. I accept your concession.

You can do as you please....I know you well too....Royal Shill.

[g_bambino]

You can do as you please....I know you well too....Royal Shill.

Sorry, not biting. You've spoiled me so that I now expect much better from you than that.

[PocketRocket]

I think this is mostly a myth started by Canadians. I would certainly never do such a thing. What kind of person travels the world with national badges except the military and olympic athletes?

"Hi....I'm from Canada...see my backpack patch....eh? "

Being that I could find nothing conclusive, ie; news articles, to cite, I won't argue with this, but several of those forum posts I mentioned held 1st hand reports of such behavior.

I brought it up as a humorous curiosity item, not as fodder for further debate.

If you interested enough to research it yourself to see if there's any truth behind it, knock yourself out.

Myself, I believe it, but don't care about it enough to argue over it.

EDITED TO ADD: Just for the hell of it, I changed the search parameters, and came up with this.....

http://cafeselect.blogspot.com/2009/01/canadian-patch-industry-flagging-due-to.html

....which is a blog, but then stumbled across this little gem from MSNBC....

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6666338/

.....so, evidently it's not a Canadian-made myth. How widespread it was, I cannot say.

Edited November 7, 2009 by PocketRocket

[bush_cheney2004]

Being that I could find nothing conclusive, ie; news articles, to cite, I won't argue with this, but several of those forum posts I mentioned held 1st hand reports of such behavior.

I brought it up as a humorous curiosity item, not as fodder for further debate.

Everything here is fodder for debate...and entertainment.

If you interested enough to research it yourself to see if there's any truth behind it, knock yourself out.

Myself, I believe it, but don't care about it enough to argue over it.

I'm sure it could have happened, but the motive for the story comes from the Canadian "please lovbe us" gene, not the arrogant American "kiss my ass" gene.

.....so, evidently it's not a Canadian-made myth. How widespread it was, I cannot say.

No matter...the best thing to come out of Canada was Denise Matthews.

[Moonlight Graham]

Canadian identity begins with Casey and ends with Finnegan.

ALL HAIL MR. DRESSUP!!! That's right Mr. Rogers u sweater-zipping freako!

[whowhere]

I think this is mostly a myth started by Canadians. I would certainly never do such a thing. What kind of person travels the world with national badges except the military and olympic athletes?

"Hi....I'm from Canada...see my backpack patch....eh? "

Why don't the wanna be Canadians search out the history of the Map of Canada before the time of US independence 1774. The symbol on those maps is the

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_does_the_'fleur_de_lis'_stand_for

The true symbol of the real/original Canada was the Fleur-de-lis. Whoever came up with maple leaf, I believe after the 1982 Constitution smoked a little to much crack and was very unoriginal.

Anyone who truly knows the history of Canada would know Ontario was an open field at the time of US Independence 1774 and was then settled to make room for the haters of freedom and democracy and the embracement and love of the Queen. From that point Ontario and other parts of Canada was settled by millions of British settlers. Today's Canada that was put in motion 1967 was defended BY THE BRITISH LOYALISTS in 1812 and British Troops. Pre 1867 Canada was populated by British Loyalists (Torys from the US) millions of "britons" brought in by the monarch from Great Britian and other common wealth regions. This was done to Balance out the ever rising Quebec/French/Canadian population. From 1867 onward the monarch has always periodically involved itself in the Govermental Structure of Canada. Particulary in 1948 when Newfoundland held a referendum to decide to join Canada or not. The referendum was not a majority but the Queen intervened and made Newfoundland apart of Canada. Recent History, the Queen intervened and put in place the 1982 Constitution which gave Canada a Charter of rights and a constitution to amend its Government Structure. She did this while preserving her position as Head of State.

It is obvious with what the Conservatives have done to Canada in the last five years they have violated and breached the identity and spirit of Canada. The 1982 Constitution was suppose to be about uniting Canada but instead the Conservatives and the Liberals have used that document to push forward their communist style governance. To preserve this style of Governance the Conservatives and the Liberals think they are clever by watering down Canada's voice by bringing in disagreeable immigrants and dragging Canada down to the economic status of under developed Countries.

The Fact is, the world deals in Broad Strokes. That is all the future historians see. English Law is one of precendents. Meaning, if it has been done in the past, it can be done in the future. The Canada that we see todays is very much because of the good intentions of the British Monarch to advance Canada but the reality is Canada is gripped by Corrupt Conservative and Liberal Governance.

Today's Canada is not the Canada intended by the 1982 Constitution. Because of that, the only course for Canada will be to face the Intervention of the British Monarch on Canada's affairs again. What this intervention would involve who is to say.

Because of what has been done to Canada I think the only right action of the British Monarch is accede Canada to the British Union under the UK Banner. That would mean revisiting the Canada Act by the UK parliament. Hmmm, odd, the UK parliament passing legislation regarding Canada not even forty years ago. To strip Canada of the document they used to wreck Canada and did nothing to honor the intent of that document.

So people can rant on about what is to be Canadian. Tick, tock goes the clock... The history is there and is not going anywere. So whenever the hammer of the British Monarch falls on Canada they will be free to bring that up with the International Court of Justice. Oddly, even though the Monarch deferred all matters to this Court in 70's Canada's 1982 Constitution was created without that courts input or consideration. That document was put in force through the parliamentary power of the UK and the signatory of the Queen. Because Canada didn't complain then, they have zero grounds to complain to the International Court in the future in any intervention on Canada by the UK and the Monarch.

[Guest American Woman]

bush_cheney2004, on 06 November 2009 - 11:11 PM, said: I think this is mostly a myth started by Canadians. I would certainly never do such a thing. What kind of person travels the world with national badges except the military and olympic athletes?

"Hi....I'm from Canada...see my backpack patch....eh?

"Being that I could find nothing conclusive, ie; news articles, to cite, I won't argue with this, but several of those forum posts I mentioned held 1st hand reports of such behavior.

I brought it up as a humorous curiosity item, not as fodder for further debate.

Actually, I believe I brought it up, and I brought it up not as fodder, but for further debate, in response to wyly's statment: strange that other countries know the difference between Canadians and Americans but Canadians have a problem with it...

I find it odd that Canadians need to wear a patch to distinguish themselves from Americans as they claim to be so different from The Ugly American. Seems to me there would be no need for the patch as their "difference from us" would surely be enough proof that they aren't Americans.

If you interested enough to research it yourself to see if there's any truth behind it, knock yourself out.

Myself, I believe it, but don't care about it enough to argue over it.

I'm sure you did believe it, even as "you don't care enough about it" to research it. Makes one wonder why you believe it.

EDITED TO ADD: Just for the hell of it, I changed the search parameters, and came up with this.....

http://cafeselect.blogspot.com/2009/01/canadian-patch-industry-flagging-due-to.html

....which is a blog,

I think your blog is a satirical site. A quote from that blog:

In an attempt to be automatically identified as specifically "non-American," many travelers replaced their American flag patches with Canadian ones. The ruse was easy to keep up: speak English, talk about cold North American winters, denigrate the French, laud salmon and syrup. No one would suspect a thing. It was like being American, only with health care and without the imperialism.

"Denigrate the French?"

This is one of my favorites, though:

"It was nearly impossible to get served in a bar or find a futon to crash on," recalls Rachel Price, a public relations director from Chicago, who spent the year after graduating college in 2003 traveling across Europe. "But as soon as I replaced the American flag on my LL Bean Phantom Sherpa 3000 Frame Pack with a Canadian one I bought in Prague, the absinthe just kept flowing. I also had a ton of unprotected sex."

And this gem:

There have already been moves by the travel patch industry to request a substantial government bailout.

It actually sounds like something from The Onion to me.

but then stumbled across this little gem from MSNBC....

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6666338/

.....so, evidently it's not a Canadian-made myth. How widespread it was, I cannot say.

Again, from your article: This isn’t the first time the company has poked fun at politics.

The company is selling 'the Canadian package' as a joke.

One of Broadbent’s colleagues had heard of someone harassed about U.S. politics during a recent overseas trip.

Some people might not mind, but others “just want to be on vacation,” Broadbent said. “So we were joking that they could just go as Canadians, and that just kind of evolved.

Perhaps what started out as a joke has become a (serious) Canadian myth. At any rate, the idea that Americans are traveling the world sporting Canadian flags is a myth.

But none of this answers my question: If Canadians are loved world-wide, and Americans are disliked, why the need to wear a label distinguishing Canadians from Americans?

[g_bambino]

Anyone who truly knows the history of Canada would know Ontario was an open field at the time of US Independence 1774 and was then settled to make room for the haters of freedom and democracy and the embracement and love of the Queen.

Particulary in 1948 when Newfoundland held a referendum to decide to join Canada or not. The referendum was not a majority but the Queen intervened and made Newfoundland apart of Canada.

1774: King George III was on the throne; US independence was declared 1776.

1948: King George VI was on the throne; Newfoundland joined Canada 1949.

And somehow, still, you think people take you seriously.

[g_bambino]

But none of this answers my question: If Canadians are loved world-wide, and Americans are disliked, why the need to wear a label distinguishing Canadians from Americans?

The answer seems rather simple: Because our visible and audible similarities will initially mask our attitudinal differences. Wearing the flag merely speeds up the eventual recognition.

[c/e]

Edited November 7, 2009 by g_bambino

[Guest American Woman]

The answer seems rather simple: Because our visible and audible similarities will initially mask our attitudinal differences. Wearing the flag merely speeds up the eventual recognition.

[c/e]

So in other words, you don't want to take the time for people to get to know you; you need the help of a patch that will evidently earn you the person's instant approval. And without it, without the person even knowing you personally, they would have an instant dislike, not because of who you are, but because of what they think you might be.

That says more about the people doing the judging than it does about Americans; and quite frankly, it says something about you, too.

[g_bambino]

So in other words, you don't want to take the time for people to get to know you; you need the help of a patch that will evidently earn you the person's instant approval.

And without it, without the person even knowing you personally, they would have an instant dislike, not because of who you are, but because of what they think you might be.

What a strangely bitter response. It isn't particularly my fault that Americans have a global bad reputation; nor that Americans and Anglophone Canadians sound and look the same. I suppose we merely do our best in the circumstances, preferring to avoid undeserved difficulties.

[+]

Edited November 7, 2009 by g_bambino

[Guest American Woman]

What a strangely bitter response. It isn't particularly my fault that Americans have a global bad reputation; nor that Americans and Canadians sound and look the same. I suppose we merely do our best in the circumstances, preferring to avoid undeserved difficulties.

What a strangely ignorant response.

No one said anything was your fault regarding the attitude some ignorant foreigners have towards Americans; what I said is I find it strangely pathetic that you feel the need to wear a patch in order to gain 'instant approval' from such people. Seriously, if that's "the best" you can do to "avoid undeserved difficulties," if your "attitudinal differences" don't do it for you, well.... my point stands. There isn't much of a difference between us. But keep trying to gain approval from those who would prejudge you based solely on what they think you might be, those who would judge you without even knowing you, if their approval is important to you. I guess we all have different needs.

As a side note. The first time I was in Amsterdam, I was on a tour of some place or other, and the proprietor told us how nice it was to have a group of Americans visit. "How do I know you're Americans? he said. "Because you don't have a giant Maple Leaf on your backpacks."*

*Just in case it escaped you, he was poking fun at Canadians.

[g_bambino]

What a strangely ignorant response.

But keep trying to gain approval from those who would prejudge you based solely on what they think you might be, those who would judge you without even knowing you, if their approval is important to you.

Likewise, my dear, for you completely missed the very simple point: It isn't approval being sought, it's difficulty being avoided. Perhaps you did meet a pro-American individual in Amsterdam; good for you. However, I'd venture to say, from my experiences across every continent (save for Antarctica), that he was a relative rarity. Many are slightly hostile to Americans, and it's rather bothersome to have to repeatedly explain to people - especially when language barriers are involved - that, no, you are not one, which they invariably assume you are at first glance and sound. The flag doesn't justify their presumptuous attitude, nor is it an absolute necessity; it merely makes things easier. I hope that isn't too hard for you to grasp.

Plus, from Hong Kong to Santiago, Glasgow to Hobart, I've got a lot of random, friendly waves, and - what shock! - I like that.

[c/e]

Edited November 7, 2009 by g_bambino