wyly Posted October 21, 2009 Report Posted October 21, 2009 War is when about 10 clever and wicked people decide they want to have some fun and make a hord of cash..next step is to convince the mass though lieing that the war is for a noble cause. I have noticed that our usual military types that reply to this type of thread seem to be holding back. I guess the illusion has worn thin. a friend of mine ex military has a saying that he loves..."war is never about peace and freedom, that's just what it becomes to justify it" I'm hard pressed to think of a war that wasn't really about money/power...everytime I think I've found one someone knocks it down... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
wyly Posted October 21, 2009 Report Posted October 21, 2009 what I found really disturbing about Hilliers reveal is when the PMO wanted to hide the return of the dead from Afghanistan...if you're going send people to war you have to take responsibility for it there's no hiding the error when lives are being lost...the people have a right to know and if they've screwed up we will hold them accountable... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
M.Dancer Posted October 21, 2009 Report Posted October 21, 2009 what I found really disturbing about Hilliers reveal is when the PMO wanted to hide the return of the dead from Afghanistan...if you're going send people to war you have to take responsibility for it there's no hiding the error when lives are being lost...the people have a right to know and if they've screwed up we will hold them accountable... Not quite. It was only one person they wanted to be quiet about, , Capt Nichola Goddard Canada's first Woman to die in combat....bad idea as her devotion to duty and sacrifice was an inspiration. OTTAWA–Officials in the Prime Minister's Office ordered the military to hide the return to Canada of the first female soldier killed in combat because they didn't want her flag-draped coffin seen on the news, according to former chief of defence staff Gen. Rick Hillier.snip In the book, Hillier recalls attending graduation ceremonies at the Royal Military College in Kingston in May 2006 and being called into a backroom to take a call from the Prime Minister's Office. The unelected staffers gave the decorated soldier and the defence minister orders that they wanted a change in Goddard's repatriation ceremony – an emotional but fairly standard event where the coffin is unloaded from a military plane at CFB Trenton and driven to Toronto on Highway 401 in a sombre procession. "Look, don't bring the Airbus in, or if you bring the plane in, turn it away from the cameras so that people can't see the bodies coming off, or do it after dark, or do it down behind the hangars, or just bar everybody from it," Hillier quotes the PMO staffers as saying. "They clearly didn't want that picture of the flag-draped coffin on the news." Hillier refused to let political considerations upset his plans. To his credit, he writes, O'Connor felt the same way. "We had set our mind to supporting the families, and to doing so much more effectively than we had ever done in the past," he writes. http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/afghanm...was-pm-s-office Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Oleg Bach Posted October 21, 2009 Report Posted October 21, 2009 Highway of Heros has it's purpose long as it's not the parking lot of the dead. Quote
Machjo Posted October 22, 2009 Report Posted October 22, 2009 how many times have they been invaded?... Sweden just once in the 15 century that I know of and they drove the Danes out..if you know of more let me know...Switzerland..last that invasion of Switzerland I'm aware of was 1798 by France, invasions of Switzerland are infrequent...Canada since 1798 has been attacked by forces from the USA 3 times...and compared to NATO countries? it's not even close Sweden and Switzerland are the safest places in europe... both countries have been in many wars, and the Swiss never had a problem renting themselves out as mercenaries...but being in a war is not the same as being invaded... Sweden and Switzerland demonstrate you do not need to belong to an alliance to avoid war, alliances continually drag countries into unwanted wars...both the Swedes and the Swiss arm and prepare themselves well and make very unattractive targets... Shhhhhhh! Quiet. You're not giving NATO a very good image here. I asked the question rhetorically hoping no one would answer and that it would give fools the impression that those two countries had been invaded countles times. You ruined my plan. :angry: Quote With friends like Zionists, what Jew needs enemies? With friends like Islamists, what Muslim needs enemies?
M.Dancer Posted October 22, 2009 Report Posted October 22, 2009 how many times have they been invaded?... Sweden just once in the 15 century that I know of and they drove the Danes out..if you know of more let me know...Switzerland..last that invasion of Switzerland I'm aware of was 1798 by France, invasions of Switzerland are infrequent...Canada since 1798 has been attacked by forces from the USA 3 times...and compared to NATO countries? it's not even close Sweden and Switzerland are the safest places in europe... both countries have been in many wars, and the Swiss never had a problem renting themselves out as mercenaries...but being in a war is not the same as being invaded... Sweden and Switzerland demonstrate you do not need to belong to an alliance to avoid war, alliances continually drag countries into unwanted wars...both the Swedes and the Swiss arm and prepare themselves well and make very unattractive targets... Sweden preffered to invade other counries....Norway, Germany, Poland the Baltics....they were hardly pacifists. As for the Swiss, they have the Alps. Makes it almost impossible to invade when a company can hold off a battalion without breaking into a sweat...it's those narrow mountain passes...the serbs learned that PDQ when they tried to get Slovenia to back down and not leave the republic.... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Machjo Posted October 22, 2009 Report Posted October 22, 2009 Sweden preffered to invade other counries....Norway, Germany, Poland the Baltics....they were hardly pacifists. As for the Swiss, they have the Alps. Makes it almost impossible to invade when a company can hold off a battalion without breaking into a sweat...it's those narrow mountain passes...the serbs learned that PDQ when they tried to get Slovenia to back down and not leave the republic.... The simple fact that Sweden has an army proves that it's not pacifist. However, that doesn't make it a warmongering nation too. There is such a thing as a just war, and that is the only kind of war we should ever fight, and stay out of any war until we are sure it's a just one. Quote With friends like Zionists, what Jew needs enemies? With friends like Islamists, what Muslim needs enemies?
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 22, 2009 Report Posted October 22, 2009 The simple fact that Sweden has an army proves that it's not pacifist. However, that doesn't make it a warmongering nation too. There is such a thing as a just war, and that is the only kind of war we should ever fight, and stay out of any war until we are sure it's a just one. Name one that meets such criteria....."just" for who? Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Machjo Posted October 22, 2009 Report Posted October 22, 2009 Name one that meets such criteria....."just" for who? Then why could we not define the term 'just war' in the constitution, thus restricting the power of politicians to use the military for their own petty ends? Though I'm not sure of the best definition, one possibility I could see would be that the war would have to meet one of three criteria: 1. A war against a clearly defined enemy that has been proven to have violated our territorial sovereignty militarily, 2. A war against a clearly defined enemy that is in violation of international law, at the official request of the international community. Sure my suggestion might be flawed, but it is an attempt at keeping Canada out of imperialist endeavours and nsuring that the moral integrity of our nation remains strong well into the future. Quote With friends like Zionists, what Jew needs enemies? With friends like Islamists, what Muslim needs enemies?
wyly Posted October 22, 2009 Report Posted October 22, 2009 Shhhhhhh! Quiet. You're not giving NATO a very good image here. I asked the question rhetorically hoping no one would answer and that it would give fools the impression that those two countries had been invaded countles times. You ruined my plan. :angry: sorry....you're far more devious than me... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 22, 2009 Report Posted October 22, 2009 ....Sure my suggestion might be flawed, but it is an attempt at keeping Canada out of imperialist endeavours and nsuring that the moral integrity of our nation remains strong well into the future. Understood, but Canada would not exist as a sovereign without "imperialist endeavours" and less than "moral integrity". Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Machjo Posted October 22, 2009 Report Posted October 22, 2009 Name one that meets such criteria....."just" for who? As for jus wars in the past, there aren't many. Perhaps the allied war aginst the Nazis, Japan and Italy would be an example. The US war against the Taliban for the purpose of getting Osama Bin Laden could meet that criteria too, though that mission has een quite sidetracked. The Iraq war fails in that the pretext for war was fabricated. No WMDs, no evidence that Saddam Hussain had anything to do with 9/11, etc. Obviously, one important criterium of a just war is honesty and transparency in the rationale and objectives of the mission. Quote With friends like Zionists, what Jew needs enemies? With friends like Islamists, what Muslim needs enemies?
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 22, 2009 Report Posted October 22, 2009 (edited) As for jus wars in the past, there aren't many. Perhaps the allied war aginst the Nazis, Japan and Italy would be an example. The US war against the Taliban for the purpose of getting Osama Bin Laden could meet that criteria too, though that mission has een quite sidetracked. There was no "allied war" until Nazi objectives clashed with existing imperial nonsense and remnants from the previous Great War. The war against the Taliban is nation building. The Iraq war fails in that the pretext for war was fabricated. No WMDs, no evidence that Saddam Hussain had anything to do with 9/11, etc. Obviously, one important criterium of a just war is honesty and transparency in the rationale and objectives of the mission. If that were true, then Japan could never have attacked Pearl Harbor. Edited October 22, 2009 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Machjo Posted October 22, 2009 Report Posted October 22, 2009 Understood, but Canada would not exist as a sovereign without "imperialist endeavours" and less than "moral integrity". So, is it better to win at all costs or is it preferable to die with integrity? I'd choose the former. Quote With friends like Zionists, what Jew needs enemies? With friends like Islamists, what Muslim needs enemies?
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 22, 2009 Report Posted October 22, 2009 So, is it better to win at all costs or is it preferable to die with integrity?I'd choose the former. I agree...win at all costs and leave the moral superiority to the philosophers. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
wyly Posted October 22, 2009 Report Posted October 22, 2009 Sweden preffered to invade other counries....Norway, Germany, Poland the Baltics....they were hardly pacifists. As for the Swiss, they have the Alps. Makes it almost impossible to invade when a company can hold off a battalion without breaking into a sweat...it's those narrow mountain passes...the serbs learned that PDQ when they tried to get Slovenia to back down and not leave the republic.... yeah being non aligned or neutral wouldn't make us pussies...we could still be the tough nut no one wants to crack...we pick and choose the right fight the just fight... not the fight some ally wants to drag us into, a fight that they may well have started... our reputation should be of a country that backs the right side not the side of alliances right or wrong... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
M.Dancer Posted October 22, 2009 Report Posted October 22, 2009 yeah being non aligned or neutral wouldn't make us pussies...we could still be the tough nut no one wants to crack...we pick and choose the right fight the just fight... not the fight some ally wants to drag us into, a fight that they may well have started...our reputation should be of a country that backs the right side not the side of alliances right or wrong... Yeah...but the modern swedes were cowards who lets their kinsmen die....and the swiss, there's a special place in hell just for them and their gold. Give us allies who are friends in sun or rain any day over cowards and craven thieves. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Machjo Posted October 22, 2009 Report Posted October 22, 2009 There was no "allied war" until Nazi objectives clashed with existing imperial nonsense and remnants from the previous Great War. Maybe you're right and that wasn't a just war too. But perhaps Caanda could work a defining in no unambiguous terms, a legal definition of 'just war' that we could hold ourselves to. The war against the Taliban is nation building. Originally, it was intended to get Bin Laden. But I agree, this bait and switch of objectives is not very transparent with the public either. Again, if we could develop a clear definition of just war, and the government stuck to it, it would then keep us out of such political quagmires. If that were true, then Japan could never have attacked Pearl Harbor. I'm not folowing you here. Who ever said Pearl harbor was a justified attack? Quote With friends like Zionists, what Jew needs enemies? With friends like Islamists, what Muslim needs enemies?
wyly Posted October 22, 2009 Report Posted October 22, 2009 There was no "allied war" until Nazi objectives clashed with existing imperial nonsense and remnants from the previous Great War. The war against the Taliban is nation building.If that were true, then Japan could never have attacked Pearl Harbor. yup WW2 was a war over money/imperialism...Japanese, German, British, French, American all guilty of imperialism, greed... war vs Taliban is not nation building, they had a nation already...as usual it became that, thats not where it started... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Machjo Posted October 22, 2009 Report Posted October 22, 2009 I agree...win at all costs and leave the moral superiority to the philosophers. Oops. I must be tired. I meant the latter, not the former. I'd rather die in a noble cause than come out a victorious villain. Quote With friends like Zionists, what Jew needs enemies? With friends like Islamists, what Muslim needs enemies?
wyly Posted October 22, 2009 Report Posted October 22, 2009 I'm not folowing you here. Who ever said Pearl harbor was a justified attack? because victors write the history books, Japan wanted a piece of the Imperial pie and from their viewpoint the US was denying them their share... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 22, 2009 Report Posted October 22, 2009 Maybe you're right and that wasn't a just war too. But perhaps Caanda could work a defining in no unambiguous terms, a legal definition of 'just war' that we could hold ourselves to. Such definitions and protocols already exist for Canada (e.g. UN), it's just that sometimes Canada chooses to ignore that. Originally, it was intended to get Bin Laden. But I agree, this bait and switch of objectives is not very transparent with the public either. Again, if we could develop a clear definition of just war, and the government stuck to it, it would then keep us out of such political quagmires. Canada is in Afghanistan because of NATO obligations, and ironically, as the "just war" compared to Iraq. I'm not folowing you here. Who ever said Pearl harbor was a justified attack? Admiral Yamamoto Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
wyly Posted October 22, 2009 Report Posted October 22, 2009 Yeah...but the modern swedes were cowards who lets their kinsmen die....and the swiss, there's a special place in hell just for them and their gold. and what swedish kinsmen are these???? the swiss mind their own business and no one screws with them...every country could learn from that... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
M.Dancer Posted October 22, 2009 Report Posted October 22, 2009 yup WW2 was a war over money/imperialism...Japanese, German, British, French, American all guilty of imperialism, greed...war vs Taliban is not nation building, they had a nation already...as usual it became that, thats not where it started... There was no Imperial Germany. It ended in 1918. And if it was about money, why was every belligerent, winners and losers in debt up to their eyeballs? Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Machjo Posted October 22, 2009 Report Posted October 22, 2009 Such definitions and protocols already exist for Canada (e.g. UN), it's just that sometimes Canada chooses to ignore that. So how do we hold it accountable when the will of the majority trumps justice? Canada is in Afghanistan because of NATO obligations, and ironically, as the "just war" compared to Iraq. Why compared? Why such moral relativism? Admiral Yamamoto Certainly different countries might have differen understanings of a 'just war', and this is where a clearer internationally accepted definition might help. But as you mentioned above, we need a way to enforce it. Quote With friends like Zionists, what Jew needs enemies? With friends like Islamists, what Muslim needs enemies?
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