Canadian want to teach Liberals a lesson

[maplesyrup]

Canadians want to teach Liberals a lesson

The NDP has returned to historic support levels of 18 to 20 per cent, and are poised for their best election score since Ed Broadbent led them to 20 per cent and 43 seats in the 1988 election. Almost all of the NDP's support is outside Quebec, meaning a 20-per-cent polling number nationally is significantly higher, more like 27 per cent, in English-speaking Canada.

Now I am ready for the election.

BRING IT ON!

[August1991]

Interesting column.

This quote I found interesting:

In Montreal last week, Martin gave a major foreign-policy address before a big crowd of nearly 1,000 people. When Martin and the head table walked in the room, there was virtually no applause. The prime minister walks into a room and nothing happens. It wasn't like that when Pierre Trudeau, Brian Mulroney, or even Jean Chretien walked into a hotel ballroom in this town.

[Dennis]

Now I am ready for the election.

        BRING IT ON! 

The NDP is a bunch of also-rans. Even back in 1988 they didn't meet expectations. And they had Free Trade to galvanize the nationalist economic vote too.

The NDP never meets expectations. Its been their history.

Unlike conservatives, they always poll better than they perform in elections.

My guess is that they will be a non-factor.

People will pay attention to the two governing alternatives.

The NDP might do well if Leftist voters start to see the Liberals crumble, just like in '88.

Even then, only the Hard Left tend to vote for them anyway.

They've been stuck in the polls for the past year, despite Jack Layton trying to make use of every TV camera in the country.

Since winning the leadership of the party, he's gone even further to the Left to energize core Leftist voters. This is not a party with any kind of moderate platform. It never has been. And Canadians have responded in kind.

The only people who really get excited about the NDP is the NDP - and the media, who have nothing better to cover before elections.

[Black Dog]

People will pay attention to the two governing alternatives.

Tweedledum and Tweedledee?

Since winning the leadership of the party, he's gone even further to the Left to energize core Leftist voters. This is not a party with any kind of moderate platform. It never has been.

Yeah: a commintment to balanced budgets, adequately funded social programs=communism.

[Dennis]

Tweedledum and Tweedledee?

No, two parties that aren't blinded by their own ideological leanings.

Yeah: a commintment to balanced budgets, adequately funded social programs=communism

Yeah, Layton said he's committed to balanced budgets. But, because no one thinks he has any chance of being elected into government, no on has bothered to go over the numbers.

So far, he's promised billions and billions more in social spending - withough giving a hoot about things like the debt.

And, for the NDP, adequately funded social programs means breaking the bank in order to redistribute wealth.

Hey, you used the word communism.

The fact of the matter is that Jack Layton has not spent one minute discussing the economic viability of this country or his attempts to further redistribute wealth like this were some kind of socialist utopia.

But, again, because this is the NDP, no one really listens or cares that much to begin with - except Leftist voters and the media, just like I said.

People will admire them for claiming to act on behalf of the little guy, then they'll vote for the parties that really matter - like its always been in this country.

[Black Dog]

So far, he's promised billions and billions more in social spending - withough giving a hoot about things like the debt.

That's what progressive taxation is for sunshine.

The fact of the matter is that Jack Layton has not spent one minute discussing the economic viability of this country or his attempts to further redistribute wealth like this were some kind of socialist utopia.

Is that from the Cons handbook? "Don't let your total ignorance of the facts get in the way of a good straw man."

NDP policies.

[August1991]

Go to the web site linked by Black Dog above and skip down a way to see the picture of Jack Layton ON A PUBLIC TRANSIT BUS. (I'm not making this up.)

Are the NDP for real?

[Dennis]

That's what progressive taxation is for sunshine

Said like a good Leftist. Who cares about anything but taxing income earners in order to support huge social programs? Liberals believe in progressive taxation too. But at least they pretend to use it for all kinds of things. The NDP wants to make Canada into a 24/7 daycare centre. And let the American economy pick up the tab. Our military too. Or maybe the NDP wants the military scrapped too. Let the tyrants worry about international security.

Is that from the Cons handbook? "Don't let your total ignorance of the facts get in the way of a good straw man."

Well, since you're so familiar with it, why don't you tell me which part of it betrays anything I've said so far.

I have listened to what Jack has to say. And its been all about spending billions more on socialist ideas. Nothing else.

If I'm wrong, please fill me in. I can't wait.

[Dennis]

Go to the web site linked by Black Dog above and skip down a way to see the picture of Jack Layton ON A PUBLIC TRANSIT BUS. (I'm not making this up.)

Are the NDP for real?

I saw that too. Made fun of it on another message board.

Here it is:

Layton In Prison

[Black Dog]

Said like a good Leftist. Who cares about anything but taxing income earners in order to support huge social programs?

WHAM! And the straw man takes a punishing blow!

"Tax income earners": well, it's more productive than taxing people who don't have any money.

Liberals believe in progressive taxation too. But at least they pretend to use it for all kinds of things.

Very insightful. D'ya even know what "progressive taxation" means?

The NDP wants to make Canada into a 24/7 daycare centre.

Well, it does sound like you could use adult supervision...

And let the American economy pick up the tab. Our military too. Or maybe the NDP wants the military scrapped too. Let the tyrants worry about international security

And where, pray tell, will all the money for our big throbbing military come from, what with all them tax cuts, hmmmm?

If I'm wrong, please fill me in. I can't wait

Why bother? You already have your preconcieved notions firmly in place and aren't all that interested in doing anything but spouting them off.

Go to the web site linked by Black Dog above and skip down a way to see the picture of Jack Layton ON A PUBLIC TRANSIT BUS. (I'm not making this up.)

Are the NDP for real?

What's yer point, exactly?

[Dennis]

Blackdog is a perfect example. When you challenge the Far Left on their religious like adherence to socialist principles, they don't have anything else but to go personal and simply assume a lack of intelligence on the part of the opponent.

So far, Blackdog has not defended the NDP one bit against the notion that it is a hardened socialist party that anticipates with glee the idea of punishing wealth creation in order to advance a radical Leftist agenda.

Not one intelligent defence.

Its been spend spend spend, attack capitalism attack capitalism attack capitalism 24/7 from Jack and his band of hardened Leftists.

But, don't tell them that. They'll just call you stupid.

PS. The picture is hilarious - but only to people who actually have a sense of humour beyond personally villifying opponents.

[Black Dog]

So far, Blackdog has not defended the NDP one bit against the notion that it is a hardened socialist party that anticipates with glee the idea of punishing wealth creation in order to advance a radical Leftist agenda.

I posted a link to the ND's party policies, which you ignored. I'm not here to breast feed you, especially since you've shown no interest in doing anything more than sniping. No debate as to why certain policies are unsound. Just keep using "socialist" as a perjorative and whacking away at the "hardened leftist" straw man.

Attaboy.

Like I said, you're mind is made up, why should I wast emy time?

[idealisttotheend]

Broadbent on a bicycle went over very well for the NDP in the 80s, go with what you know.

So far, Blackdog has not defended the NDP one bit against the notion that it is a hardened socialist party that anticipates with glee the idea of punishing wealth creation in order to advance a radical Leftist agenda.

Neither have you proven it sir. What, for example, is this radical leftist agenda the NDP is supposed to support?

Tweedledum and Tweedledee?

No, two parties that aren't blinded by their own ideological leanings.

Or perhaps parties who have a history of believing in nothing, (Free Trade is like sleeping with an elephant, Free Trade is good, the GST must go, the GST in essential)

Mulroney, by the way, lost the popular vote in the great FTA election of '88. It was just the split between the NDP and the Liberals that got him through.

The NDP is not electable for the simple reason that all but the actually 'radical' left are more reluctant to split their vote than the right has been. So they vote Liberal, that's why they poll better than they elect.

But in a minority they would -- by a quirk of the parlimentary system -- set the agenda. Watch for a minority government with the NDP teaming up with the Bloc to push the Liberals back to the left (bet that'll annoy all the CPC merger enthusiasts ). It'll be just like '72 again.

[Hjalmar]

Yesterday's Man

Back in the 50's and 60's Sweden, one of the most socialistic countries in the world, saw no end in sight and felt their "welfare state" would be sustainable forever. As of about 12 to 15 years ago they started to realize that the welfare state was just not sustainable in a global

economy where everyone is forced to compete worldwide.

They have now reversed course, cut back on many of their giveaways and turned many former government functions over to the private sector. Here in Canada we have a lame-brain like Jack Layton who actually thinks that we can continue to function as a welfare state. Take a look at what happened in both Ontario and BC under NDP governments. They even managed to turn BC [one of the 3 "have" provinces] into a have - not province. What progress do you see in Man and Sask under NDP governments? None!!! I believe they are the only 2 provinces in Canada today with out -migration. Is this what Canada really wants? Get lost Jack Layton -- we want our country to prosper.

[maplesyrup]

This election is about running a country, not running a business. And there is a big difference. Unfortunately some people just don't get it.

[Dennis]

I posted a link to the ND's party policies, which you ignored. I'm not here to breast feed you, especially since you've shown no interest in doing anything more than sniping. No debate as to why certain policies are unsound. Just keep using "socialist" as a perjorative and whacking away at the "hardened leftist" straw man.

Attaboy.

Like I said, you're mind is made up, why should I wast emy time?

Oh, I'm sorry. I guess I'm not supposed to listen to what Jack Layton has been saying for the past six months. I'm also not supposed to receive a defence of those policies from someone who is trying to defend his policies.

No. I'm supposed to go over to the NDP website, read all of their policies, and figure out for myself how Jack Layton and the NDP isn't a radical Left Wing Party.

Listen to this.

Someone who claims to know NDP policies and believe they are not radical can't even cite them and blames me for not knowing them, even thought I've listened to what Jack has been saying for months.

If Jack's own people can't defend his policies, who can?

Jack wants to spend spend spend. Jack wants to attack attack attack Corporate Canada. And his supporters can't even defend him.

And this is supposes to be a party to get excited about?

Its laughable.

Every time I have challenged the NDP they first attack me, then they call me stupid, then they tell me to go read the NDP book.

OK

[idealisttotheend]

No. I'm supposed to go over to the NDP website, read all of their policies, and figure out for myself how Jack Layton and the NDP isn't a radical Left Wing Party.

Ah, well yes you are, IMHO and all. If you are going to vote this is your responsibility and if you are going to talk about them, it is also your responsibility. If you can quote a specific part of the policy that seems to be radical left wing and state why then the NDP people might have something to debate with you.

Statements like:

Jack wants to spend spend spend. Jack wants to attack attack attack Corporate Canada.

really aren't very useful except in a battle of mindless rhetoric.

IMHO.

[August1991]

Every time I have challenged the NDP they first attack me, then they call me stupid, then they tell me to go read the NDP book.

Good line! It reminds me of what teachers used to say to me.

But then I learned that teachers know nothing about real life. So Dennis, you're like a teacher. You don't get it.

And we're supposed to listen to you?

[maplesyrup]

It is always a bit sad when people denegrate teachers, probably the most important group of people in our society, and in whom we place our future.

[August1991]

MS:

There are no bad students, only bad teachers.

[Alliance Fanatic]

I found that some teachers whine about how the whole world hates them, and how they deserve to be treated like gods. Even in Alberta, despite the fact teachers can easily make 65000+, more than police constables or firefighters, they treat themselves as if they are better than most other people.

[playfullfellow]

This election is about running a country, not running a business. And there is a big difference. Unfortunately some people just don't get it. 

I have to disagree with this statement. If you do not run a country like a business, then you are going to bankrupt it. If you keep spending with no definate agenda or game plan, then we may as well kiss the rest of our paycheques goodbye. Each and every decision the government makes is an investment in our future, good investments give us better returns, bad investments cause us to lose. If there is no definative game plan from a political party on how they will achieve their goals, then I will not even consider voting for them. I have lived in a Socialist country and it is not a pretty sight seeing 18 percent unemployment and tax rates at 40 percent plus. Do we need social programs in this country? Yes we do but I think we can do a lot better job of getting help to people who actually need it. Do we need healthcare in this country? You bet we do but I think we need to look at alternatives to make it more efficient. Do the Liberals need to be taught a lesson? Definately, they have become way too cocky and feel they can get away with whatever they feel like. Their opinions feels like "eh, who cares, it isn't our money". The Liberals talk a good talk but never seem to walk that talk. As for who is a better alternative to lead this country, I like the Cons but that is my choice. I do not need to attack policies of the NDP or Liberals but I can disagree with them. That is my choice as this is still a free country and I am allowed to have my opinions.

[Black Dog]

No. I'm supposed to go over to the NDP website, read all of their policies, and figure out for myself how Jack Layton and the NDP isn't a radical Left Wing Party.

Or you could just wallow in your preconceptions. Whatever. It's not like you'll vote NDP anyway.

Jack wants to spend spend spend. Jack wants to attack attack attack Corporate Canada. And his supporters can't even defend him.

That is, to be blunt, bullshit. Your attacking the NDP on the basis of your own characterization of them as a radical leftist party. It's a bit like asking "have you stopped beating your wife."

Or, to turn the tables, I'd like to state categorically that the Canadian Alliance is nothing more that an extremist party of religious zealots and bigots who's only goal is to turn Canada into a vassal state of the U.S.A. and to enrich themselves and their corporate friends at the expense of the average citizen. I challenge anyone to prove me wrong, but be warned: my minds already made up.

Statements like:

Jack wants to spend spend spend. Jack wants to attack attack attack Corporate Canada

.

really aren't very useful except in a battle of mindless rhetoric.

Bingo.

[playfullfellow]

Or, to turn the tables, I'd like to state categorically that the Canadian Alliance is nothing more that an extremist party of religious zealots and bigots who's only goal is to turn Canada into a vassal state of the U.S.A. and to enrich themselves and their corporate friends at the expense of the average citizen. I challenge anyone to prove me wrong, but be warned: my minds already made up. 

Guess you are allowed to make up your mind but anyone who disagrees with you is just wrong and stupid. That is just the impression I get from all of your threads.

[Alliance Fanatic]

The NDP's only real goal is to call anybody that disagrees with their radical social policies a bigot. I think that the New Democrats actually believe that the Soviet Union was much better than the United States. The NDP can never be considered useful, why listen to a bunch of people who want to turn Canada into Vancouver's east side.