Flip Flop Iggy Flips again

[madmax]

deleted...

Edited January 31, 2011 by madmax

[Evening Star]

But the WORST of Health Care was that it brought Diefenbaker to power who in turn killed Canada's future as a major player in Aviation by scrapping the Avro Arrow project...

I don't get this at all. Diefenbaker was PM from 1957-1963, Pearson from 1963-1968. The Avro Arrow project was cancelled in 1959. Universal health care was implemented as national policy in 1965 by a minority Pearson government that was supported by Douglas' NDP and that was responding at least in part to the NDP's demands. The following election in 1968 was a landslide for Trudeau's Liberals, who were certainly riding Trudeau's own charisma and vision but also the successful and popular record of the previous Liberal government. In what sense did health care policy 'bring Diefenbaker to power'?

Edited January 31, 2011 by Evening Star

[punked]

Don't mind GWiz he clearly knows nothing about the History of this country.

Well written article about the Liberals Flip flops over the last year.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/second-reading/brian-topp/a-coming-surprise-for-michael-ignatieff/article1888555/

[GWiz]

I don't get this at all. Diefenbaker was PM from 1957-1963, Pearson from 1963-1968. The Avro Arrow project was cancelled in 1959. Universal health care was implemented as national policy in 1965 by a minority Pearson government that was supported by Douglas' NDP and that was responding at least in part to the NDP's demands. The following election in 1968 was a landslide for Trudeau's Liberals, who were certainly riding Trudeau's own charisma and vision but also the successful and popular record of the previous Liberal government. In what sense did health care policy 'bring Diefenbaker to power'?

Read the link I left punked...

Edited January 31, 2011 by GWiz

[GWiz]

See again you don't get it the NDP are trying to keep the Conservatives out of power because the Liberals and Conservatives are the same party right now. The Liberal leader agrees with Harper on almost all issues and shows that by letting all his votes pass. Seriously if the Liberals were a left leaning progressive party they might get my vote but they aren't. You really need to go look at the track record of the Liberal party before you preach to me about keeping the Conservatives in power. It is a stupid argument that the Liberals always go to. I don't care what party is in power I care about how they govern. I don't care if they are blue or Red remember the Liberals not only started these Corporate tax cuts they also campaigned on them. They wont roll them back because they are scared they will look like they raising taxes.

Buzz Hargrove is obviously a hell of a lot smarter than you are...

BTW

Wow some of the dumbest things I have ever heard. Seriously this is what I am saying about you having a very superficial understanding of politics in this country. Where to start really how about the Claim "every" CCF/NDP victory was because of the Liberals.

Let me remind you that the HIDS Act of 1957 which was the start of national Medicare in this country was enacted by John Diefenbaker a PC Prime Minster he also modeled the first Bills of rights off of one which Douglas intentioned in Sask. Again you show you know nothing of the history of this country there were a number of things Diefenbaker that were progressive and modeled off of the NDP policy.

Did I know the NDP has never brought a bill to the floor. That is news to me it seems to me parliament passed a National Housing Strategy just last year a bill brought to the floor by get this THE NDP. Seriously dude you don't know how parliament works do you?

No I don't see a difference accept you look very silly to say things like "The NDP Can never win" and in the same breath talk about how awesome the Man Liberals are who have 2 seats in the Leg right now and have has about that many for the last 30 years.

Just wow.

You like to change history to suit you, don't you? Also some reading comprehension would do you a lot of good...

[punked]

Buzz Hargrove is obviously a hell of a lot smarter than you are...

Yes I get it everyone who says vote Liberal is amazing and anyone who says different no matter what their policy is stupid. I get it. Tell me more how stupid P.E.T was for appointing a great NDP premier to GG again will you so I can laugh at your flip flops.

You like to change history to suit you, don't you? Also some reading comprehension would do you a lot of good...

I never changed history you just don't know anything. If you picked up a book maybe you would understand something.

[Evening Star]

Read the link I left punked...

I read it, admittedly quickly. I didn't see anything that suggested how health care policy was responsible for Diefenbaker winning the 1957 or 1958 elections, allowing him to cancel the Avro Arrow project in 1959.

[Evening Star]

Topp article seems to be on the money, btw.

[GWiz]

Yes I get it everyone who says vote Liberal is amazing and anyone who says different no matter what their policy is stupid. I get it. Tell me more how stupid P.E.T was for appointing a great NDP premier to GG again will you so I can laugh at your flip flops.

I never changed history you just don't know anything. If you picked up a book maybe you would understand something.

Lester B. Pearson

Political Party

Liberal

1958 - 1968 Party Leader

Constituencies

1948 - 1968 Algoma East, Ontario

Other Ministries

1948 - 1957 External Affairs

Political Record

Nobel Peace Prize 1957

Leader of the Opposition 1958-1963

Royal Commission on Bilingualism and Biculturalism 1963

Canada Pension Plan 1965

Canada-United States Automotive Agreement (Auto Pact) 1965

New National Flag 1965

Universal medicare 1966

Centennial celebrations 1967

You think anything on that list was of interest to a socialist party like the CCF/NDP?

History doesn't change to suit you anymore than - oh nevermind, you're hopeless...

Diefenbaker indeed...

You're a moron, thanks for proving it...

[Evening Star]

Come on, everyone knows that universal health care and a pension plan were of interest to the CCF/NDP.

[punked]

This guys doesn't even understand Canadian healthcare. It was the and is the provinces that implemented it, and control it. Pearson provided a large incentive by saying the feds would pay 50% and it was the Federal Liberals who have almost killed by cutting that number back to as low as 12% in the 90s. Not even Harper thought that number enough and when he came to power raised it to about 16% but this guy know nothing about Canada, about its history, or about what the Federal government does. He is the perfect liberal. Star don't even bother with him.

I think someone might want read Pearson's "Medical Care Act" although I don't know if GWiz can read so don't think that will be happening.

Edited February 1, 2011 by punked

[GWiz]

I read it, admittedly quickly. I didn't see anything that suggested how health care policy was responsible for Diefenbaker winning the 1957 or 1958 elections, allowing him to cancel the Avro Arrow project in 1959.

To precipate the 1958 election the Diefenbaker Gov. was brought down because Pearson promised the CCF that he would look at implementing social reform legislation like a Canada wide health care system... The country, as you would have read, was strongly divided on the issue of health care and other "Communist" social programs... Diefenbaker made the cost of social programs and being against social reform the centerpiece of his campaign... He won...

[punked]

To precipate the 1958 election the Diefenbaker Gov. was brought down because Pearson promised the CCF that he would look at implementing social reform legislation like a Canada wide health care system... The country, as you would have read, was strongly divided on the issue of health care and other "Communist" social programs... Diefenbaker made the cost of social programs and being against social reform the centerpiece of his campaign... He won...

Yah no that really is you interpreting history the way you want to. Pearson implemented forward the Health care act under the guidelines of Justice Emmett Hall's recommendations in the Royal Commission on Health Services. THIS WAS DONE BY Diefenbaker in 1960. Diefenbaker was never against Medicare and anyone who thinks he was "just because he was a PC" ignores that was Diefenbaker who pass the Hospital Insurance and Diagnostic Services Act of 1957 the first step to Medicare. You know absolutely nothing about Canadian politics. Again the CCF and the Tories did the heavy lifting which I am ok with as long as progressive policies get passed but you are being crazy.

[Evening Star]

The country, as you would have read, was strongly divided on the issue of health care and other "Communist" social programs...

This was the part I did read. Thanks for filling in the rest. I didn't think/know that that was the centrepiece of Diefenbaker's campaign though.

xpost Punked's history is closer to my understanding of this.

To precipate the 1958 election the Diefenbaker Gov. was brought down because Pearson promised the CCF that he would look at implementing social reform legislation like a Canada wide health care system...

(So, obviously, it did interest the CCF!)

[punked]

This was the part I did read. Thanks for filling in the rest. I didn't think/know that that was the centrepiece of Diefenbaker's campaign though.

xpost Punked's history is closer to my understanding of this.

That is because that isn't what he ran on. Deif got hold of a Liberal document which said there would be a 57 economic down turn and ran on the fact they managed the country poorly. He also high lighted the fact the Liberals had a new leader who thought it right to ask the PCs to "give power back to the Liberals without an election". It was the devil we know vs. the devil we don't type of election. Also leader from the West swept the Soc Creds off the map.

[GWiz]

Come on, everyone knows that universal health care and a pension plan were of interest to the CCF/NDP.

Of course they were... My point is that they were of interest to people like Lester Pearson too...

Tommy Douglas and Lester Pearson had a lot in common, beyond politics, they were friends...

When Pearson died in '72 Tommy Douglas read one of the eulogies at his funeral...

There were/are GOOD PEOPLE (and bad ones) in every party... Once I almost voted NDP when Ed Broadbend, good people, was the leader, I didn't because the guy running in my riding was a guy like "punked"... Thank goodness for that, now I can still live with myself...

Speaking of good NDPers, Gary Doer was one, mainly because for all intent and purposes he was a centrist and governed like a Liberal would... One of the reasons the Liberals didn't do well in Manitoba was because there wasn't a lot of room for two centrists...

[punked]

Speaking of good NDPers, Gary Doer was one, mainly because for all intent and purposes he was a centrist and governed like a Liberal would... One of the reasons the Liberals didn't do well in Manitoba was because there wasn't a lot of room for two centrists...

No that is a stupid statement. Unless Doer has been an NDP leader for 50+ years because the Liberals haven't won in MN for 55 years. The problem is that brokerage parties like the Liberals who campaign from the left but govern from the right are often squeezed when they lose power to a third option because the center is squeezed out. Look all around the world not just in the Western provinces England, Australia and so on. Canada is the only country that still has a Liberal party in take has not gone with the natural progression of Labour party vs. Conservative party. Maybe it never will however acting like Doer held the Liberals back ignores the point that they haven't won in 55 years. Which by the way is about as long as the NDP haven't won Federally being that is around the time they came around.

I think you live in a different world then I live in when you say things like that. I wont say the Mn Liberals will never win again or they are a waste of a vote because I am not that stupid of a flip flopper but their chance is about as good as the Federal NDP

Oh by the way when you say you didn't vote for the candidate in your ridding because he was like does that mean it is because he was informed and wasn't up for your lies? I can see how that might tick you off.

Edited February 1, 2011 by punked

[nicky10013]

No that is a stupid statement. Unless Doer has been an NDP leader for 50+ years because the Liberals haven't won in MN for 55 years. The problem is that brokerage parties like the Liberals who campaign from the left but govern from the right are often squeezed when they lose power to a third option because the center is squeezed out. Look all around the world not just in the Western provinces England, Australia and so on. Canada is the only country that still has a Liberal party in take has not gone with the natural progression of Labour party vs. Conservative party. Maybe it never will however acting like Doer held the Liberals back ignores the point that they haven't won in 55 years. Which by the way is about as long as the NDP haven't won Federally being that is around the time they came around.

I think you live in a different world then I live in when you say things like that. I wont say the Mn Liberals will never win again or they are a waste of a vote because I am not that stupid of a flip flopper but their chance is about as good as the Federal NDP

Oh by the way when you say you didn't vote for the candidate in your ridding because he was like does that mean it is because he was informed and wasn't up for your lies? I can see how that might tick you off.

No, an ideological jerk. You still have yet to post anything close to a Dipper legislative agenda. You said you'd like to debate governance which would incontravertibly prove that in government the NDP is so much better.

You haven't.

Where is it?

[punked]

No, an ideological jerk. You still have yet to post anything close to a Dipper legislative agenda. You said you'd like to debate governance which would incontravertibly prove that in government the NDP is so much better.

You haven't.

Where is it?

Well besides all the rehashed Liberal Ideas that the NDP have been fighting for, for the last 5 years and which it seems the Liberals just woke up last week to say "Hey those are good ideas, lets take them and campaign on them but never actually do anything if we win" You can go here and read about the vision. This is not the platform but there is one which is ready to go. If you don't find that informative enough I suggest you look at some of the NDP private member bills it might take you a while because they have about 5 times as many as the Liberals even though they only have a fourth of the caucus. It is what happens when you actually do work instead of waiting and hoping Canadians put you back in power you are a Liberal.

http://www.ndp.ca/vision

[GWiz]

No that is a stupid statement. Unless Doer has been an NDP leader for 50+ years because the Liberals haven't won in MN for 55 years. The problem is that brokerage parties like the Liberals who campaign from the left but govern from the right are often squeezed when they lose power to a third option because the center is squeezed out. Look all around the world not just in the Western provinces England, Australia and so on. Canada is the only country that still has a Liberal party in take has not gone with the natural progression of Labour party vs. Conservative party. Maybe it never will however acting like Doer held the Liberals back ignores the point that they haven't won in 55 years. Which by the way is about as long as the NDP haven't won Federally being that is around the time they came around.

I think you live in a different world then I live in when you say things like that. I wont say the Mn Liberals will never win again or they are a waste of a vote because I am not that stupid of a flip flopper but their chance is about as good as the Federal NDP

Oh by the way when you say you didn't vote for the candidate in your ridding because he was like does that mean it is because he was informed and wasn't up for your lies? I can see how that might tick you off.

You ARE a moron... Informed indeed... Brainwashed is more like it... When the NDP do as well Federally as Sharon Carstairs (official opposition, NDP 3rd) did in Manitoba come back and see me...

Not knowing what "world" you live in sonny THAT may be the ONLY thing you've gotten right so far, because it sure as hell ain't mine...

I'm putting in a few emoticons in to help you read at your level of understanding...

I also notice you're gutless and can't admit it when your wrong, but that's almost understandable when you're wrong so often it'd make you hoarse or wear out your fingers typing...

[punked]

You ARE a moron... Informed indeed... Brainwashed is more like it... When the NDP do as well Federally as Sharon Carstairs (official opposition, NDP 3rd) did in Manitoba come back and see me...

Not knowing what "world" you live in sonny THAT may be the ONLY thing you've gotten right so far, because it sure as hell ain't mine...

I'm putting in a few emoticons in to help you read at your level of understanding...

I also notice you're gutless and can't admit it when your wrong, but that's almost understandable when you're wrong so often it'd make you hoarse or wear out your fingers typing...

Sharon Carstairs did a good job of ridding the Mech lake accords to an almost victory proving the point much like the NDP is plenty of places it only takes one issue. I'll tell you right now the Mn Liberals have 2 seats that seems to be a WHOLE lot less then the NDP Federally. If the best you got is "In the last 55 years we were number 2" than I think you are aiming as high as the Liberals will go in Mn for a while. Maybe they can win but right now they are worse off then the NDP federally that is for sure.

I see you misrepresented what I said though. I said the Liberals in Mn have about as much a chance and haven't an election won as long as the NDP have been around. You think that wrong?

Edited February 1, 2011 by punked

[nicky10013]

Well besides all the rehashed Liberal Ideas that the NDP have been fighting for, for the last 5 years and which it seems the Liberals just woke up last week to say "Hey those are good ideas, lets take them and campaign on them but never actually do anything if we win" You can go here and read about the vision. This is not the platform but there is one which is ready to go. If you don't find that informative enough I suggest you look at some of the NDP private member bills it might take you a while because they have about 5 times as many as the Liberals even though they only have a fourth of the caucus. It is what happens when you actually do work instead of waiting and hoping Canadians put you back in power you are a Liberal.

http://www.ndp.ca/vision

I didn't ask for the current NDP platform. You said the NDP has done much more for Canada and has a much better record regarding governance. Past tense. Quit trying to turn this into how bad the Liberals are. You asked me to post what was done by the Liberals. I did. You didn't regarding the NDP despite the fact you said you would. Lets see it.

Edited February 1, 2011 by nicky10013

[GWiz]

Sharon Carstairs did a good job of ridding the Mech lake accords to an almost victory proving the point much like the NDP is plenty of places it only takes one issue. I'll tell you right now the Mn Liberals have 2 seats that seems to be a WHOLE lot less then the NDP Federally. If the best you got is "In the last 55 years we were number 2" than I think you are aiming as high as the Liberals will go in Mn for a while. Maybe they can win but right now they are worse off then the NDP federally that is for sure.

I see you misrepresented what I said though. I said the Liberals in Mn have about as much a chance and haven't an election won as long as the NDP have been around. You think that wrong?

Average Federal NDP support 15%

Average Provincial Liberal support Manitoba 27%

Nuff said...

[Evening Star]

Of course they were... My point is that they were of interest to people like Lester Pearson too...

Tommy Douglas and Lester Pearson had a lot in common, beyond politics, they were friends...

OK, we're on the same page about this then. I'm a huge Pearson admirer btw.

[GWiz]

Sharon Carstairs did a good job of ridding the Mech lake accords to an almost victory proving the point much like the NDP is plenty of places it only takes one issue. I'll tell you right now the Mn Liberals have 2 seats that seems to be a WHOLE lot less then the NDP Federally. If the best you got is "In the last 55 years we were number 2" than I think you are aiming as high as the Liberals will go in Mn for a while. Maybe they can win but right now they are worse off then the NDP federally that is for sure.

I see you misrepresented what I said though. I said the Liberals in Mn have about as much a chance and haven't an election won as long as the NDP have been around. You think that wrong?

Wrong again, Carstairs caved in Ottawa after 3 days of gruelling pressure by Moroney, Filmon didn't, it was what made the difference in the next provincial election and was the start of the Liberal backslide in Manitoba provincial elections... It wasn't fair, but it is what happened...

Btw, your typing is starting to slur... You drinking, smoking, or worse?

And fyi, the Liberals now have 1 seat in the provincial legislature, the other won the bi-election in a Fed NDP riding and is now a Fed... Kevin Lamoureau is his name... Remember?

I also see your memory slipping... Are you alright?