The old double standards still alive and well

kimmy · October 23, 2009

Funny, you seem to be aware of the Famine.....and I picture you as an average canadian girl.

If I'm the average Canadian girl, then the average Canadian girl didn't learn a damned thing about it in school, beyond a brief pablum-like mention ("...many people died due to famine because agricultural productivity dropped as farmers resisted collectivization..." or similar gloss.)

If the average Canadian girl learned about the Holodomor the way I did, it means she was wandering around downtown Edmonton one day and chanced upon the little bronze memorial near city hall, and having Ukrainian ancestry on her mother's side, was interested enough to find out more.

I dunno, how many cities (other than "The 'chuk") have a little bronze memorial like that? How many people actually stop to read the placard? How many of those people actually feel inclined to learn more? Just about nobody, I would suspect. Most Canadians are lazy about learning anything and expect to have information fed to them with a spoon... you work in advertising, so I'm sure you agree completely.

-k

jbg · October 23, 2009

Why do we hear endless yammering about the holocaust and not so much as a peep as the comparatively worse Holodomor?

You've provoked me into a response I didn't want to make.

The victims of the Holodomer (or the victim group) helped the Nazis scrub Ukraine of Jews. And their immediate ancestors were bitter Jew-haters and Jew-killers. My maternal grandmother's parents fled from Ukraine in the late 1890's. The Ukrainians were as much aggressors as victims. Even now, the Russian-speaking minority feels persecuted in "democratic" Ukraine.

While I certainly don't support artificial famines there is no moral equivalence between the Holodomer and the Holocaust.

jbg · October 23, 2009

That, along with 99.9% of your posts, is pure unalterated bullshit.

Good call.

ToadBrother · October 23, 2009

You've provoked me into a response I didn't want to make.
The victims of the Holodomer (or the victim group) helped the Nazis scrub Ukraine of Jews. And their immediate ancestors were bitter Jew-haters and Jew-killers. My maternal grandmother's parents fled from Ukraine in the late 1890's. The Ukrainians were as much aggressors as victims. Even now, the Russian-speaking minority feels persecuted in "democratic" Ukraine.

While I certainly don't support artificial famines there is no moral equivalence between the Holodomer and the Holocaust.

YOu're under the impression that Lictor actually accepts that a Holocaust happened, and barring that, that those dirty rotten evil world-controlling Jews didn't deserve it. In fact it's always struck me as a little odd that Jew haters like Lictor deny the Holocaust, when they so clearly despise Jews. But I guess the first step is to make the Nazis, their cohorts, and yes, their willing local contributors in occupied areas (France, Poland, the Ukraine and so forth). In Poland, for instance, a sort of fabled retelling of the Polish extermination seems pretty common, where the poor victimized Poles were forced to deliver their Jews.

But in Lictor's case, the need is to convince others in small steps. First, to call into question the Holocaust through a clever bait-and-switch technique. RAther than start out openly denying the Holocaust, he starts by the not all-that-unreasonable position that Stalin committed atrocities in Eastern Europe, and that there is a double standard in how these are treated in the West as opposed to the Holocaust. The danger is the reasonableness of the first argument. A lot of people are only vaguely aware of what Stalin was up to, because, first of all, he became our ally, and we turned a blind eye to the bad things that had been happening in Finland, the Baltic, Soviet-controlled Poland, the Ukraine and so forth. On the other hand, the attempted extermination of European Jewry is widely known, and so, to one degree or another, Stalin's evil deeds fade, where they shouldn't (and one can see the danger in it in the current rehabilitation of Stalin and that era by the Kremlin).

The bait and switch comes, however, in that Lictor actually accepts that Stalin killed lots of people, because like most far right anti-Semitic neo-Nazi looney-tunes, he hates Communists almost as much as he hates Jews. What Lictor does not accept is the Holocaust. In his mind, like most modern HOlocaust Deniers, the Nazis may have fumbled the ball in the war, but they weren't all that bad, a few Jews were killed, too bad, but Jews aren't all that great anyways, and who can blame the Nazis.

Lictor is a bad guy.

kimmy · October 23, 2009

You've provoked me into a response I didn't want to make.
The victims of the Holodomer (or the victim group) helped the Nazis scrub Ukraine of Jews. And their immediate ancestors were bitter Jew-haters and Jew-killers. My maternal grandmother's parents fled from Ukraine in the late 1890's. The Ukrainians were as much aggressors as victims. Even now, the Russian-speaking minority feels persecuted in "democratic" Ukraine.

...so, they had it coming, basically?

-k

lictor616 · October 23, 2009

You've provoked me into a response I didn't want to make.
The victims of the Holodomer (or the victim group) helped the Nazis scrub Ukraine of Jews. And their immediate ancestors were bitter Jew-haters and Jew-killers. My maternal grandmother's parents fled from Ukraine in the late 1890's. The Ukrainians were as much aggressors as victims. Even now, the Russian-speaking minority feels persecuted in "democratic" Ukraine.

While I certainly don't support artificial famines there is no moral equivalence between the Holodomer and the Holocaust.

oH!!!

right! the Ukrainians DARED to not coddle jews... so logically they deserved to have 7 to 10 million of their people killed! its only logic!

How good and fitting and satisfying it is that the head butcher of the Ukraine Genocide... was a jew himself .. Lazar Moiseyevich Kaganovich... Stalin's favorite henchman.

Maybe you'd like to have a poster of him in your house somewhere, I mean clearly this man is a hero for giving those vile sub human Ukrainians their comeuppance for DARING to not worship the chosen people!

Yeah Ukrainians really deserved worse then the holocaust (even if they didn't participate in it!)

Jbg... The Ukrainians really did have it coming.... they weren't sufficiently well trained (unlike you) to know that whenever they see or hear a Jewish person, they must automatically drop to their knees and knock their foreheads three times on the pavement in veneration of their living gods!

Okay you win... holodomor was totally cool and necessary! Actually the Ukraine can be thankful that th e death toll stopped at 7 to 10 million for daring to displease god's own!

lictor616 · October 23, 2009

YOu're under the impression that Lictor actually accepts that a Holocaust happened, and barring that, that those dirty rotten evil world-controlling Jews didn't deserve it. In fact it's always struck me as a little odd that Jew haters like Lictor deny the Holocaust, when they so clearly despise Jews. But I guess the first step is to make the Nazis, their cohorts, and yes, their willing local contributors in occupied areas (France, Poland, the Ukraine and so forth). In Poland, for instance, a sort of fabled retelling of the Polish extermination seems pretty common, where the poor victimized Poles were forced to deliver their Jews.
But in Lictor's case, the need is to convince others in small steps. First, to call into question the Holocaust through a clever bait-and-switch technique. RAther than start out openly denying the Holocaust, he starts by the not all-that-unreasonable position that Stalin committed atrocities in Eastern Europe, and that there is a double standard in how these are treated in the West as opposed to the Holocaust. The danger is the reasonableness of the first argument. A lot of people are only vaguely aware of what Stalin was up to, because, first of all, he became our ally, and we turned a blind eye to the bad things that had been happening in Finland, the Baltic, Soviet-controlled Poland, the Ukraine and so forth. On the other hand, the attempted extermination of European Jewry is widely known, and so, to one degree or another, Stalin's evil deeds fade, where they shouldn't (and one can see the danger in it in the current rehabilitation of Stalin and that era by the Kremlin).

The bait and switch comes, however, in that Lictor actually accepts that Stalin killed lots of people, because like most far right anti-Semitic neo-Nazi looney-tunes, he hates Communists almost as much as he hates Jews. What Lictor does not accept is the Holocaust. In his mind, like most modern HOlocaust Deniers, the Nazis may have fumbled the ball in the war, but they weren't all that bad, a few Jews were killed, too bad, but Jews aren't all that great anyways, and who can blame the Nazis.

Lictor is a bad guy.

if I substituted the word jew for Ukrainian here... it would sum up your frank opinion of the Ukrainians and their holodomor.

ToadBrother · October 23, 2009

if I substituted the word jew for Ukrainian here... it would sum up your frank opinion of the Ukrainians and their holodomor.

You're a lying little monster, Lictor. Tell your own lies, but don't you ever presume to lecture me on such things, you racist piece of filth. I have never defended Stalin, know reasonably well the history of his abuses in the Ukraine (and other places, besides), so, as they say in polite society, screw you.

lictor616 · October 23, 2009

You're a lying little monster, Lictor. Tell your own lies, but don't you ever presume to lecture me on such things, you racist piece of filth. I have never defended Stalin, know reasonably well the history of his abuses in the Ukraine (and other places, besides), so, as they say in polite society, screw you.

yet you choose to ignore the double standard in the case of the holodomor receiving so little attention (when it technically should be receiving MORE) and then insult anyone who says that it should be more widely recognized...

you defend people like M.Dancer who minimize this monstrous act of murder that was the Holodomor... but again you go absolutely haywire and scream insults when anyone touches the holocaust.

You don't understand that what is maddening here is the DOUBLE STANDARDS that are manifest in every line you write. You really DO NOT CARE AT ALL about the Holodomor... your acts and comments corroborate that very clearly... and you quite obviously have a deep and inveterate emotional attachment to the Holocaust (even if you don't really understand it, and don't really know the details very well). its pure unadulterated BIAS.

ToadBrother · October 23, 2009

yet you choose to ignore the double standard in the case of the holodomor receiving so little attention (when it technically should be receiving MORE) and then insult anyone who says that it should be more widely recognized...

I never ignored it at all. Your fighting phantoms here.

you defend people like M.Dancer who minimize this monstrous act of murder that was the Holodomor... but again you go absolutely haywire and scream insults when anyone touches the holocaust.

I haven't defended him. What I've done is shown how deeply dishonest you are. You accept the mass murder in the Ukraine because you hate Communists. You reject the Holocaust's existence because you also hate Jews.

You don't understand that what is maddening here is the DOUBLE STANDARDS that are manifest in every line you write. You really DO NOT CARE AT ALL about the Holodomor... your acts and comments corroborate that very clearly... and you quite obviously have a deep and inveterate emotional attachment to the Holocaust (even if you don't really understand it, and don't really know the details very well). its pure unadulterated BIAS.

Save your idiocies for someone else. I'm not going to permit you to invent positions for me.

lictor616 · October 23, 2009

The victims of the Holodomer (or the victim group) helped the Nazis scrub Ukraine of Jews. And their immediate ancestors were bitter Jew-haters and Jew-killers. My maternal grandmother's parents fled from Ukraine in the late 1890's. The Ukrainians were as much aggressors as victims.

I really have to comment on this obscene and vile comment of yours jbg:

the victims of the Holodomor had no relationship with the Holocaust... the 7 to 10 million dead in the holodomor happened in 1931-32 that's right: 8 years before the start of Nazi concentration camp operations...

Furthermore, who could blame the Ukraine for siding with the germans after having 3 million of their own children DESTROYED in the holodomor by communist troglodytes for so long?

As far as scrubbing "jews of Ukraine"

but perhaps the best example of your mindset, is when you look at the details...

There were perhaps 500 000 ukraine jews that perished in the Holocaust... and to your mind: that is sufficient justification to wipe out 7 to 10 million Ukrainians in return. (EVEN IF they died BEFORE THE HOLOCAUST!)

you certainly remind me of that blunt quote showing the supremacist attitude:by the famous and well loved Rabbi Ya'acov Perin who said once while speaking at the funeral of the mass murderer Dr. Baruch Goldstein "One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail."

presumably you feel the same about Ukrainians.

oh but "I'M THE RACIST" !?!? right? tsk tsk.

Argus · October 23, 2009

You've provoked me into a response I didn't want to make.
The victims of the Holodomer (or the victim group) helped the Nazis scrub Ukraine of Jews. And their immediate ancestors were bitter Jew-haters and Jew-killers. My maternal grandmother's parents fled from Ukraine in the late 1890's. The Ukrainians were as much aggressors as victims. Even now, the Russian-speaking minority feels persecuted in "democratic" Ukraine.

While I certainly don't support artificial famines there is no moral equivalence between the Holodomer and the Holocaust.

I'm sorry, but did you just write that the Ukrainians got what they deserved? Because it certainly looked like it.

The victims helped the Nazis? No, I'm afraid the victims were all DEAD by that point. So how they could have helped the Nazis eludes me.

Did the Nazis find a group ready to incite to fight on their behalf against the Russians, who had only a decade earlier, slaughtered them mercilessly? Of course! Should that surprise anyone? Of course not!

There was a good deal of vicious anti-Semitism throughout the Slavic world, more even than in Europe, and there was enough of it there. Combined with the eagerness of the Ukrainians to "pay back" the Russians and anyone they saw as aiding the Communists, I'm not surprised there were atrocities or that some Ukrainians enthusiastically embraced the Nazis as liberators.

But your attempt to dismiss this mass slaughter, this atrocity of such immense proportions beggars the imagination. If a Jew can excuse a mass slaughter of people on the grounds that those people were unworthy of anyone being concerned about them then I guess no one really has learned much from the Holocaust.

Edited October 23, 2009 by Argus

lictor616 · October 23, 2009

But your attempt to dismiss this mass slaughter, this atrocity of such immense proportions beggars the imagination. If a Jew can excuse a mass slaughter of people on the grounds that those people were unworthy of anyone being concerned about them then I guess no one really has learned much from the Holocaust.

well, nice to hear a sober voice amidst this deafening silence.

quite well put. This needed to be said.

Edited October 23, 2009 by lictor616

Oleg Bach · October 23, 2009

Some forget that the old tribes that comprised Judahism were a very ferce and shrewd bunch of aggressive war lords..highly skilled and extremely dangerous..It has only been of late that the idea has been propogated that they are this pale milk skinned weaklings that cringe from agression...also look at the tough ones during the 30s that abandoned their weaker brothers to assist and handle the Nazi movement...I have always believed that it was a family feud, that holocaust...The materialist agressors getting rid of the God believers who stood in their way...No one wants to talk about Jew killing Jew under the guise of something else.

jbg · October 24, 2009

I'm sorry, but did you just write that the Ukrainians got what they deserved? Because it certainly looked like it.
**********

But your attempt to dismiss this mass slaughter, this atrocity of such immense proportions beggars the imagination. If a Jew can excuse a mass slaughter of people on the grounds that those people were unworthy of anyone being concerned about them then I guess no one really has learned much from the Holocaust.

I do apologize. I know I went too far, under stress of exhaustion, work and family issues.

That being said, the Polish and Ukrainian people, more than their rulers (with some heroic exceptions such as Carol Voltylwa (sp) (the later John Paul II) perpetrated a slaughter running more than a century. My entire maternal side hails from those two areas.

The slaughter, even pre-Holocaust, was sickening.

lictor616 · October 24, 2009

I do apologize. I know I went too far, under stress of exhaustion, work and family issues.
That being said, the Polish and Ukrainian people, more than their rulers (with some heroic exceptions such as Carol Voltylwa (sp) (the later John Paul II) perpetrated a slaughter running more than a century. My entire maternal side hails from those two areas.

The slaughter, even pre-Holocaust, was sickening.

direct quote from JBG:

jbg

Post #80

Radical Leftist Lawyer and Yank

QUOTE from (cybercoma @ Oct 23 2009, 11:27 PM)

"Wrong. Communism does not elevate the proletariat over the bourgeoisie. It is the end of classes and class struggles."

JBG QUOTE: "My personal heros Pol Pot and Yosef Stalin believed otherwise."

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index....75&start=75

Stalin and pol pot as heroes.... i'll leave it at that I think.

Edited October 24, 2009 by lictor616

jbg · October 24, 2009

Stalin and pol pot as heroes.... i'll leave it at that I think.

Yours is Adolf Hitler.

Argus · October 24, 2009

well, nice to hear a sober voice amidst this deafening silence.
quite well put. This needed to be said.

Lictor, what also needs to be said is your efforts at downplaying the Holocaust are thoroughly unconvincing. I consider the only purpose behind Holocaust denial is to discredit Jews in some way, because some people don't like Jews.

I have never understood why people dislike and distrust Jews. I kind of get that the Jews seem to draw jealousy because of their general financial success and close knit famly ties, but I admire that myself. I also get that as a cultural trait, Jews do seem to be rather more fixated on money than others cultures. But it wasn't a bunch of Jews who ran Ford when they decided it was cheaper to compensate the victims of exploding cars than fix them. It wasn't Jews who ran the cigarette companies and decided to downplay the danger of smoking in order to make profits. It wasn't all Jews who caused the recent near banking collapse and recession.

In other words, avarice, greed and immorality in business are hardly traits one can assign solely to the Jewish community. And so I can see no substantive basis for those who work so energetically to demonize and discredit Jews.

Edited October 24, 2009 by Argus

Argus · October 24, 2009

I do apologize. I know I went too far, under stress of exhaustion, work and family issues.
That being said, the Polish and Ukrainian people, more than their rulers (with some heroic exceptions such as Carol Voltylwa (sp) (the later John Paul II) perpetrated a slaughter running more than a century. My entire maternal side hails from those two areas.

The slaughter, even pre-Holocaust, was sickening.

As I said, I understand that Europe was awash in vicious anti-semitism during the last few centuries, and nowhere was it worse than among Slavs. In fact, that probably can be said to this day. I don't know the historical reasons behind it, though I think it can reliably be laid at the door of ignorance, and in particularly, ignorant religious leaders. But in no way, shape or form does this excuse or nullify the horror of the atrocities commited against the Ukrainians by Stalin.

jbg · October 24, 2009

I have never understood why people dislike and distrust Jews. I kind of get that the Jews seem to draw jealousy because of their general financial success and close knit famly ties, but I admire that myself. I also get that as a cultural trait, Jews do seem to be rather more fixated on money than others cultures.

I think the problem that people have with Jews, both Muslims and Christians, is that in a world where most of the culturally relevant areas are dominated by one or the others, the Jews have been agreeable to assimilation, but insisting on some separateness and independence. This always arouses a love-hate relationship, suspicion married to envy.

As I said, I understand that Europe was awash in vicious anti-semitism during the last few centuries, and nowhere was it worse than among Slavs. In fact, that probably can be said to this day. I don't know the historical reasons behind it, though I think it can reliably be laid at the door of ignorance, and in particularly, ignorant religious leaders. But in no way, shape or form does this excuse or nullify the horror of the atrocities commited against the Ukrainians by Stalin.

I think some of the historical basis for this was that the royals brought Jews in to run certain industries controlled by the Crown, such as vodka, tobacco and others, and were seen as tools of the oppressors. Also, they were the lenders. Who really wouldn't mind "offing" their creditors?

If I may be perhaps a bit too blase about the Holodomer, it's perhaps my own historical bitterness at the oppressors of the Jews. As far as Germans go, Hitler was a "one-shot wonder" whereas the persecution of Jews was long-lasting and pervasive in Polish, Russian, Ukrainian and similar areas. Also, the Holodomer was a famine. Some of it was planned and other parts were the result of misguided collectivization policies. Also, it's a fact that there have been other planned famines in the world, such as Biafra. Is Lictor616 excited about that one?

M.Dancer · October 24, 2009

If I may be perhaps a bit too blase about the Holodomer, it's perhaps my own historical bitterness at the oppressors of the Jews. As far as Germans go, Hitler was a "one-shot wonder" whereas the persecution of Jews was long-lasting and pervasive in Polish, Russian, Ukrainian and similar areas. Also, the Holodomer was a famine. Some of it was planned and other parts were the result of misguided collectivization policies.

You are by no means alone in your feelings. One person I know once said of all of the victims of the Soviets, the only ones he gave a rat's ass about were the 3 baltic nations. When I asked why, being much younger than I am now, he said something like it was very hard to feel sad about their misfortunes (poles, ukrainians, russians et al) when they very same people were doing the best to rape and pillage his.

In other words to paraphrase him...while the Ukrainian Famine was an atrocity, don't expect me to cry for them.

jbg · October 24, 2009

In other words to paraphrase him...while the Ukrainian Famine was an atrocity, don't expect me to cry for them.

Basically, the way I see it, it was part of an ongoing struggle. The situation with the Jews was different. They were basically living, minding their business and were often selected for hatred and killing. Edited October 24, 2009 by jbg

Argus · October 24, 2009

In other words to paraphrase him...while the Ukrainian Famine was an atrocity, don't expect me to cry for them.

Again, I see little difference here between that statement and some Ukrainian saying "The Jews were heavily involved in slaughtering our people. So what if the Nazis killed a few. Don't expect me to cry for them."

jbg · October 24, 2009

Again, I see little difference here between that statement and some Ukrainian saying "The Jews were heavily involved in slaughtering our people. So what if the Nazis killed a few. Don't expect me to cry for them."

There is a huge difference. Jewish "involvement" in killing Ukrainians consisted of the employment by the czarist and then USSR government of a few individual Jews. The Jews, doctrinally have never, since after the writing of Deuteronomy, advocated killing any group as a collective whole.

Granted, under the OT Amalkites and Jebusites didn't do so well. But there was never as drive on the part as Jews qua Jews to kill Ukrainians. The Ukraininans qua Ukrainians and Nazis qua Nazis of course targeted Jews as a group.

lictor616 · October 24, 2009

Yours is Adolf Hitler.

no I think Hitler was a political failure. and don't admire him or consider him a hero... on the contrary...

and I NEVER SAID I did either...

you on the other hadn readily admitted to having such reptiolian like monsters as Stalin and Pol Pot as HEROS! ... and, your hatefilled statements on the victims of the holodomor and bloodthirsty pro-communist bias is something you've admitted to more then once here...

Hitler by the way caused far less cadavers then Stalin... war or peace time combined.

Edited October 24, 2009 by lictor616