Conservative anti-Ignatieff ad

[Wild Bill]

Those poor legitimate Conservatives against the whole illegitimate world, eh? They have the valid right to dictate all nuance of all policy based on the support of 37.65% of the people who weren't too disgusted to vote.

Yes, I believe they do! The other parties can't claim the entirety of that percentage who DIDN'T vote for the Tories. That's just as illogical. That other 62.35% is made up of various interests and a big portion of apathy. The apathetic chose to have no voice and so are irrelevant. Among the other parties, the Tories still had the most Canadians in favour of having them as the government.

I could accept your math under a two party system but then, the winner would have had a majority!

[Smallc]

It really bothers me that people don't seem to understand that every member of parliament is as legitimate as the next.

[Bryan]

Yes, I believe they do! The other parties can't claim the entirety of that percentage who DIDN'T vote for the Tories. That's just as illogical. That other 62.35% is made up of various interests and a big portion of apathy. The apathetic chose to have no voice and so are irrelevant. Among the other parties, the Tories still had the most Canadians in favour of having them as the government.

I could accept your math under a two party system but then, the winner would have had a majority!

Yes, and for a very real current example of that, look at the current polling. The Liberal support has remained essentially static, while the Conservative support has gone up. How is that possible? NDP support has dropped. I actually do know plenty of people (especially here in Manitoba) who will vote either Conservative or NDP but never Liberal. It seems illogical, but it does demonstrate that you cannot lump "other" together.

[Molly]

You assume support for a party. WE DON'T ELECT PARTIES!

We choose individuals, and their affiliation with any party may or may not have anything to do with why we chose them. (I've certainly voted for more than one in spite of, not because of it.)

I am completely convinced that partiy affiliation shouldn't even be indicated on ballots. Maybe people would then figure it out, that they are choosing an actual person to represent their interests- and that person is not bound by party affiliation for a danged minute.

Learn something from David Emmerson!

Edited September 12, 2009 by Molly

[kimmy]

Conservative anti-Ignatieff ad features... Justin Trudeau

Wellll, it was no secret that the more left-leaning side of the party was less than excited about Ignatieff as leader.

If the Conservatives can remind left-leaning Liberals of that, it might hurt the Liberals, even as the Liberals regain support from center-right voters.

-k

[Martin]

Ignatieff is a joke though. Who does he think he is threatening with an election.

[Smallc]

He's not threatening anyone. He's decided that he can't support the government. It's up to the other parties to figure something out now.

[capricorn]

We choose individuals, and their affiliation with any party may or may not have anything to do with why we chose them. (I've certainly voted for more than one in spite of, not because of it.)

That's true. For example, my MP (Lib. Mauril Belanger, Ottawa-Vanier) is a fine person and seems to do a good job representing his constituents. My riding has been held by the Liberals since Confederation, except once a long time ago. Candidates from other parties are also fine people but this riding is simply hard core Liberal turf. Anyone could run here as a Liberal and win. Yes, some voters choose individuals but some ridings simply adhere to the same party time and again regardless if the candidate isn't the best of the available lot. The party brand is simply ingrained in the riding.

I am completely convinced that partiy affiliation shouldn't even be indicated on ballots. Maybe people would then figure it out, that they are choosing an actual person to represent their interests- and that person is not bound by party affiliation for a danged minute.

That seems like asking a lot from the average voter. Maybe if our election campaigns were longer there would be more time for voters to become informed as to where each candidate stands on each and every major issue independant from the national party's platform. But then we would be too long between Parliaments whilst the nation's business would come to a standstill.

I understand your frustration. Yet, I just can't see what you propose as being workable in our Parliamentary system.

[jdobbin]

There are two kinds of election campaigns. One is about ideas, the other about personalities. So far neither the Tories nor the Liberals have shown any great proclivity for developing ideas anyone wants to support. Neither has displayed any sense of vision or innovation which is likely to grip the country. Neither seems likely to remedy this any time soon.

I think the issue of the deficit is something that will demand answers, The Tories have said most of the deficit will disappear and that some cuts will come later. The question of where will continue to be asked.

As for the Liberals, they had better come up with answers themselves to those key questions of financial management.

[Wild Bill]

You assume support for a party. WE DON'T ELECT PARTIES!

We choose individuals, and their affiliation with any party may or may not have anything to do with why we chose them. (I've certainly voted for more than one in spite of, not because of it.)

I am completely convinced that partiy affiliation shouldn't even be indicated on ballots. Maybe people would then figure it out, that they are choosing an actual person to represent their interests- and that person is not bound by party affiliation for a danged minute.

Learn something from David Emmerson!

Wishes again, Molly! If my granny had wheels she would bang her ass when she hopped!

Yes, you're technically correct. We choose individuals, not parties. Again, most Canadians don't think as you do. They DO vote for the PARTY! They don't necessarily care who the individual MP is on the ballot.

This is not totally a wrong strategy. While it is true that there are hard working and lazy MP's from any party, it's a fact of the universe that an Opposition MP usually can do little or nothing for his riding! He or she can look into problems getting your EI cheques on time but as far as serious funding for his riding it just doesn't happen.

Last election my home area of Hamilton, ON locked out any Tory MP's. Only one on each side of the area was CPC. Afterwards, they suddenly realized that they weren't likely to get any big financial help with federal money! They started sucking up to the suburban Tory MP's, calling them "Hamilton's Voice in Ottawa!"

I laughed at first, then I felt very, very sad. They were true to their principles but now were complaining about going hungry.

The world works the way the world works, Molly. Not by our wishes.

[Bryan]

You assume support for a party. WE DON'T ELECT PARTIES!

We do, just not directly. If it was as simple as you seem to think, the leaders wouldn't spend so much time campaigning, there would not be leaders debates, and there would not be federal advertising campaigns.

It absolutely IS about the party. Who runs locally for that party is seat, while important, is still secondary.

[Smallc]

It may very well be about parties, but that doesn't change the reality that the Conservatives are in a minority situation. They don't have a license to govern unopposed, and until they realize it (or they're removed from government) then parliaments aren't going to work well.

[Argus]

LOL Dion tried that. The Conservatives rebranded Greenshift, and branded him, personally.

But honestly, I categorically agree.

Dion's problem was that, first, he was a ludicrously inept communicator, two, the whole idea was overcomplicated, three many Canadians didn't see it as solving anything - even though there would be tremendous cost - and four, with the advent of the global recession, Canadians were looking to their jobs and pocketbooks - and had no time for esoteric "save the planet" campaigns.

[Argus]

It really bothers me that people don't seem to understand that every member of parliament is as legitimate as the next.

Trudeau said that ordinary MPs were nobodies a hundred feet from parliament hill. If he'd been asked, he would have said opposition MPs were less than nobodies, as far as he was concerned.

[Argus]

That's true. For example, my MP (Lib. Mauril Belanger, Ottawa-Vanier) is a fine person and seems to do a good job representing his constituents. My riding has been held by the Liberals since Confederation, except once a long time ago.

Yes, I've spoken about ridings like Ottawa-Vanier before. They have always voted Liberal because the Liberals have always been associated with French power more than the Conservatives. The Liberals were the party of Quebec, and Ottawa-Vanier always voted for them.

That hasn't changed. Ottawa-Vanier is like Quebec in that it has a high percentage of French voters. They will not vote for anyone but a Francophone. That means all parties generally run Francophone candidates, of course, but the Liberals are still more associated with French power and Quebec than the Tories, so they get the nod.

There are no issues for voters in ridings like Ottawa Vanier except "who's the most French?"

This is not bigoted, of course.

[Smallc]

Of course, we have no actual proof of that other than your rant.

[Argus]

I think the issue of the deficit is something that will demand answers,

That is an invented issue. It's the kind of issue that a bunch pollsters, communications specialists and consultants and party bigwigs sit around a board room table and try to come up with, an issue they don't care about but which they think will get them votes. It's merely the latest of the transparently phony "issues" the Liberals have thrown out there for consideration since Iggy took over the party.

The deficit is not going to be solved this year or next. The incentive program all parties voted in still has another ways to run as does the recession. Only after that will we have a clear understanding of what shape our income and expenses will be in.

I'm talking about issues which mean something to people and which have needed addressing for years now, like health care, immigration. I'm talking about national issues, like fixing the trans canada highway system, or protecting the north, like securing our borders and ports, both of which seem to be in the hands of organized crime groups, like coming up with a national industrial strategy for the 21st century which will secure some part of our manufacturing sector against foreign competition.

[nicky10013]

That is an invented issue. It's the kind of issue that a bunch pollsters, communications specialists and consultants and party bigwigs sit around a board room table and try to come up with, an issue they don't care about but which they think will get them votes. It's merely the latest of the transparently phony "issues" the Liberals have thrown out there for consideration since Iggy took over the party.

The deficit is not going to be solved this year or next. The incentive program all parties voted in still has another ways to run as does the recession. Only after that will we have a clear understanding of what shape our income and expenses will be in.

I'm talking about issues which mean something to people and which have needed addressing for years now, like health care, immigration. I'm talking about national issues, like fixing the trans canada highway system, or protecting the north, like securing our borders and ports, both of which seem to be in the hands of organized crime groups, like coming up with a national industrial strategy for the 21st century which will secure some part of our manufacturing sector against foreign competition.

When the Liberals are in power, they're tax and spend monsters but when the Conservatives run up deficit no one really cares. Hilarious. I think the deficit issue IS a big issue and not for what people think. It's not the fact that we're running up deficits, it's that Deficit Jim can't make a somewhat accurate prediction to save his life. It's an issue of competency and frankly, I can't take anyone seriously who think these clowns in government right now actually have a clue.

Lets Recap:

There won't be a recession, we need to stay the course (last election)

Recession but no deficit

Small deficit

Large Deficit

Out of Control deficit

Is any of this wrong? No. So, how can anyone say that this just isn't a big deal? The other issues are VERY important but everything depends on the government being able to accurately predict how much money they're going to have on hand. THey can't do it now, what's to say they can do it in the future?

[jdobbin]

That is an invented issue. It's the kind of issue that a bunch pollsters, communications specialists and consultants and party bigwigs sit around a board room table and try to come up with, an issue they don't care about but which they think will get them votes. It's merely the latest of the transparently phony "issues" the Liberals have thrown out there for consideration since Iggy took over the party.

It is one of the only issues in the last few decades that every party has agreed on. It is one that voters considered highly important.

The economy will rate high in this election but little talk about deficits will likely not be looked at favourably.

The deficit is not going to be solved this year or next. The incentive program all parties voted in still has another ways to run as does the recession. Only after that will we have a clear understanding of what shape our income and expenses will be in.

I think the debate about what to do about the deficit has to happen now.

It is like the ill considered wait on what to do in regards to the recession.

I certainly wish we had a rainy day fund like some of the provinces did.

I'm talking about issues which mean something to people and which have needed addressing for years now, like health care, immigration. I'm talking about national issues, like fixing the trans canada highway system, or protecting the north, like securing our borders and ports, both of which seem to be in the hands of organized crime groups, like coming up with a national industrial strategy for the 21st century which will secure some part of our manufacturing sector against foreign competition.

If there is a big spending election campaign mounted, I think the alarm bells are going to go off for many people.

[capricorn]

Yes, I've spoken about ridings like Ottawa-Vanier before. They have always voted Liberal because the Liberals have always been associated with French power more than the Conservatives. The Liberals were the party of Quebec, and Ottawa-Vanier always voted for them.

I was born in Vanier and lived most of my life here. In the last 15-20 years, many immigrants settled in Vanier. So not only is there French power there is now also Immigrant power and both groups here stick to the Liberals likes flies to fly-paper.

[Oleg Bach]

I was born in Vanier and lived most of my life here. In the last 15-20 years, many immigrants settled in Vanier. So not only is there French power there is now also Immigrant power and both groups here stick to the Liberals likes flies to fly-paper.

Any party that is dependent on the immigrant vote - that party will continue to bring in all the immigrants it can - In essence it is no longer Canada..just a voting centre.

[nicky10013]

Any party that is dependent on the immigrant vote - that party will continue to bring in all the immigrants it can - In essence it is no longer Canada..just a voting centre.

Immigrants can't vote, only citizens can vote. If "immigrants" aren't wanted in your country (let me guess, non-whites, non-christians etc), yours is a Canada I wish to take no part in.

[Oleg Bach]

Immigrants can't vote, only citizens can vote. If "immigrants" aren't wanted in your country (let me guess, non-whites, non-christians etc), yours is a Canada I wish to take no part in.

That's so reactionary and so typical - "let me guess" Well that sounds like a nice phrase and a bit of one upmanship on your part - but you are off the mark - and totally wrong - what's with you ...have you been programmed to that extent that you pull up the same retorts again and again? Point being - immigrants become citizens and these new citizens vote for the people that granted them entry...and citizenship - so the point is that thankful citizens who were former immigrants are a sure block vote for liberals ---- conservatives like immigrants also - submissive ones of colour that they assumed would work cheap in their companies...I don't care what colour or religion you are...

[nicky10013]

That's so reactionary and so typical - "let me guess" Well that sounds like a nice phrase and a bit of one upmanship on your part - but you are off the mark - and totally wrong - what's with you ...have you been programmed to that extent that you pull up the same retorts again and again? Point being - immigrants become citizens and these new citizens vote for the people that granted them entry...and citizenship - so the point is that thankful citizens who were former immigrants are a sure block vote for liberals ---- conservatives like immigrants also - submissive ones of colour that they assumed would work cheap in their companies...I don't care what colour or religion you are...

If this was true they'd be voting Conservative to thank them for citizenship over the past 4 years. It isn't happening. Maybe it's because they were tired of right wing ideologues back in their home country? Just a thought.

[Oleg Bach]

If this was true they'd be voting Conservative to thank them for citizenship over the past 4 years. It isn't happening. Maybe it's because they were tired of right wing ideologues back in their home country? Just a thought.

That could be it - extremism leads to suffering ..... I thought you were picking on me because of my age - You have to remember...I never really belonged to a particular generation. Right wingers that I have met here are people who are all about power and domination - with out limit -They can kiss my butt...I will always be a centralist and take the best from left and right - and treat all with moderation.