Liberals "slew" deficit on the backs of Provinces

[Keepitsimple]

So much for the Liberals "track record" as deficit busters. In John McCallum's own words:

The Liberals' finance critic said there would be no repeat of the 1990s – when the party under Jean Chrétien and Paul Martin slashed transfers to the provinces.

That gambit helped turn around the nation's finances, but created problems in schools and hospitals from coast to coast.

Liberal finance critic John McCallum now suggests the severity of those cuts may have been a mistake.

"We will absolutely not reduce transfer payments to the provinces," McCallum told The Canadian Press.

"It's true that this is something we have done in the past – but we have learned from our mistakes."

Link: http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/690853

Edited September 5, 2009 by Keepitsimple

[jdobbin]

So much for the Liberals "track record" as deficit busters. In John McCallum's own words:

So, the solution back then was to support the Tory initiative on ending the deficit?

Edited September 5, 2009 by jdobbin

[Keepitsimple]

So, the solution back then was to support the Tory initiate on ending the deficit?

Your usual deflection doesn't wash this time. "Back then" the Liberals had a majority goverment and could do whatever they chose.....they chose to siphon funds from Employment Insurance into general revenues and offload a lot of the mess to the provinces - putting Education, Healtcare, and Social Services into crisis and the provinces into deficit. Now, McCallum admits it was a mistake. No kidding.

[jdobbin]

Your usual deflection doesn't wash this time. "Back then" the Liberals had a majority goverment and could do whatever they chose.....they chose to siphon funds from Employment Insurance into general revenues and offload a lot of the mess to the provinces - putting Education, Healtcare, and Social Services into crisis and the provinces into deficit. Now, McCallum admits it was a mistake. No kidding.

The Liberal government did off load a lot the provinces. And what did they do? Many cut taxes and off loaded to the municipalities and people in general. I didn't hear a lot of conservatives not asking for cuts to transfers. And if the transfer remained what they were? I still think the provinces would cut service and lowered taxes.

The reason the Liberals got those majorities is because they said they would tackle the deficit.

As far as McCallum goes, I feel he has left a lot of the provinces off the hook for their own part in this.

Edited September 5, 2009 by jdobbin

[Keepitsimple]

The Liberal government did off load a lot the provinces. And what did they do? Many cut taxes and off loaded to the municipalities and people in general. I didn't hear a lot of conservatives not asking for cuts to transfers. And if the transfer remained what they were? I still think the provinces would cut service and lowered taxes.

The reason the Liberals got those majorities is because they said they would tackle the deficit.

As far as McCallum goes, I feel he has left a lot of the provinces off the hook for their own part in this.

If you'll remember there were only two Conservatives in Kim Campbell's government - then we had Reform.......the Liberals really had no opposition because of the fracture in the Right. The Bloc was the official opposition in 1993 with 54 seats followed by Reform in 1997 with 60 seats. The Liberals were always proud of the fact that they "slew" the deficit....maybe they should be - all I know is that McCallum - the current Finace Minister of the Liberals - says it was a mistake - and that goes to credibility and their claim that they can handle it better than the Conservatives. They raided the EI fund and dumped on the provinces.....now you're in your arm chair saying the provinces handled their own deficits the wrong way. Dobbin - you should run for Liberal leader after Ignatieff heads back to Harvard....you seem to have all the answers.

[Alta4ever]

The Liberal government did off load a lot the provinces. And what did they do? Many cut taxes and off loaded to the municipalities and people in general. I didn't hear a lot of conservatives not asking for cuts to transfers. And if the transfer remained what they were? I still think the provinces would cut service and lowered taxes.

The reason the Liberals got those majorities is because they said they would tackle the deficit.

As far as McCallum goes, I feel he has left a lot of the provinces off the hook for their own part in this.

Why do you have such a hard time with this, its not about the conservativies it is about about what the liberals are purposing.

[Slim MacSquinty]

If you recall back when Mulroney left office and Kim Campbell fought the election against Chretien, the Liberals had opposed free trade and the GST and would abolish both.

If you recall there had been a recession back then and Mulroney (and Michael Wilson) had inheritted a deficit and made it worse, but had the wisdom to pursue free trade and the GST among other things which set the stage for the recovery.

Many of these things were agressively opposed by the Liberals who upon election did a monumental about face and ran with the Tory plan. So once again the Liberals are opposing all things Tory but of course have no alternative plan. If, and I hope they don't, get elected they will likely do the status quo and simply bide their time while enriching themselves as Liberals always do.

This batch of Liberals I fear are more vain and arrogant than their predessors and do not deserve to govern.

[jdobbin]

Why do you have such a hard time with this, its not about the conservativies it is about about what the liberals are purposing.

No, it is all about the Conservatives. How could you get that wrong?

[Alta4ever]

No, it is all about the Conservatives. How could you get that wrong?

The opening post of the thread is specifically about the Liberals, quit trying to deflect, this thread is all about the liberals.

[Keepitsimple]

No, it is all about the Conservatives. How could you get that wrong?

Try as you might Dobbin....it is YOU who has it all wrong. We have a strong minority government - 143 seats - elected less than a year ago. We have a global recession the likes of which we might have not ever seen before. We are slowly coming out of it - begrudgingly or not with the help of the Federal government. There is no need for an election except for Michael Ignatieff to have what might be his only opportunjity to wear the crown and the Liberals' last gasp to get back into power....otherwise they will have NO chance as Canada exits the recession and the Olympics are underway. No amount of spinning or deflection or apologizing by you on behalf of your beloved Liberals will change that....but as always, I respect your stamina, tenacity and at times, pugnacity.

[jdobbin]

If you'll remember there were only two Conservatives in Kim Campbell's government - then we had Reform.......the Liberals really had no opposition because of the fracture in the Right. The Bloc was the official opposition in 1993 with 54 seats followed by Reform in 1997 with 60 seats. The Liberals were always proud of the fact that they "slew" the deficit....maybe they should be - all I know is that McCallum - the current Finace Minister of the Liberals - says it was a mistake - and that goes to credibility and their claim that they can handle it better than the Conservatives. They raided the EI fund and dumped on the provinces.....now you're in your arm chair saying the provinces handled their own deficits the wrong way. Dobbin - you should run for Liberal leader after Ignatieff heads back to Harvard....you seem to have all the answers.

And who was one of the people who caused that fracture? That's right: Harper.

McCallum does make a few mistakes from time to time. He also advocated for bank mergers and had to do a mea culpa.

The Liberals cut everything in their stated goal of cutting the deficit. Moreover, they won a majority government while stating that goal in years after.

The provinces did what they did, the Fed did what they did. In your view only the Feds are to blame. I'm sorry but the response in most provinces was to do their own offloading and cuts in taxes.

I have run for office. When will you run for office since you seem to know all the answers yourself?

[jdobbin]

Try as you might Dobbin....it is YOU who has it all wrong. We have a strong minority government - 143 seats - elected less than a year ago. We have a global recession the likes of which we might have not ever seen before. We are slowly coming out of it - begrudgingly or not with the help of the Federal government. There is no need for an election except for Michael Ignatieff to have what might be his only opportunjity to wear the crown and the Liberals' last gasp to get back into power....otherwise they will have NO chance as Canada exits the recession and the Olympics are underway. No amount of spinning or deflection or apologizing by you on behalf of your beloved Liberals will change that....but as always, I respect your stamina, tenacity and at times, pugnacity.

Look, I'm sorry I'm of the opinion that Harper's plea for no elections is self-serving and untrustworthy. Term limits mean nothing to him and it is easy to see him calling an election right after the Olympics.

Harper has a minority. He doesn't feel like cooperating and goes for the throat at any opportunity. Your beloved Tories act like horse's asses crying coward and figure that is their way or the highway.

Campaign all you want on not having an election but there is very little record of parties being punished for one when they are called. If there was we would have seen that in the last election when Harper sniffing political opportunism to wear the majority crown. He pulled the trigger in defiance of his own law. That's right. In arrogant, self-serving defiance of his own law. Your beloved Tories lied through their teeth about not calling an election and had the mitigated gall to blame the Liberals for it. The Liberals had made no attempt to vote down a confidence vote but somehow they were to blame.

So gimme a break about Harper being trustworthy about term limits. He can't be trusted. He will pull the trigger when he feels like it and this lie he tells that the Federal plans for the economy stopping during the election are being laughed at by financial experts as pure bull. Moreover, the idea that the reno tax credit is jeopardy is in trouble is also a big whopper.

People kept saying the Liberals were cowards. Well, if you want to blame anyone for an election, blame Harper. He has no interest in cooperating. It is a zero game for him. Win or lose.

There is no way the situation could continue. So let the fight begin because in the end in takes two to tango. And in the case of Canada, a few parties to do that.

I don't think the Liberals should be the one to bend over and take it every single time while NDP, Bloc and Tories all say they are blameless. Step up. Take some responsibility for this and stop whining that an election results when you act like a donkey.

Edited September 6, 2009 by jdobbin

[jdobbin]

The opening post of the thread is specifically about the Liberals, quit trying to deflect, this thread is all about the liberals.

And I can make it about who I want or are you against free speech?

[Keepitsimple]

And who was one of the people who caused that fracture? That's right: Harper.

McCallum does make a few mistakes from time to time. He also advocated for bank mergers and had to do a mea culpa.

The Liberals cut everything in their stated goal of cutting the deficit. Moreover, they won a majority government while stating that goal in years after.

The provinces did what they did, the Fed did what they did. In your view only the Feds are to blame. I'm sorry but the response in most provinces was to do their own offloading and cuts in taxes.

I have run for office. When will you run for office since you seem to know all the answers yourself?

Are you saying that McCallum was mistaken about the Liberals being mistaken? I've never run for office but was active in the Liberal Party back in the Trudeau days. I was one of those "when you're young you vote with your heart and choose Liberal....when you mature, you vote with your brain and choose Conservative". My political paradigm shift came with the Chretien years....three straight majorities and the opportunity to make a real difference......and we drifted....became a country that stood for nothing but platitudes - the nice guys who nobody really listened to....the American haters.....the greed, the entitlement, the arrogance.....unfortunately proving that absolute power corrupts. I'm impressed with your research and knowledge on many of the issues.....but surely you can see the rotten, rudderless hulk that the Liberals have become - and Ignatieff is exactly what you KNOW him to be - someone who reluctantly came back to Canada to wear the crown - nothing else....in your heart you know that - I know you do. I agree that there are rough edges on the Conservatives....but for the most part, they stand on principle....some may not like individual principles - like Khadr, but they are not wishy-washy - you know where you stand.

[jdobbin]

Are you saying that McCallum was mistaken about the Liberals being mistaken?

I'm saying he is wrong on saying transfer payments were the only way the deficit was eliminated. The financial statistics confirm that.

Are you saying that transfer payments were the only factor in this happening?

I've never run for office but was active in the Liberal Party back in the Trudeau days. I was one of those "when you're young you vote with your heart and choose Liberal....when you mature, you vote with your brain and choose Conservative".

Think that brain thing was possible when Mulroney was around? I guess the rule of thumb then is to become more conservative and then what? More conservative after that?

My political paradigm shift came with the Chretien years....three straight majorities and the opportunity to make a real difference......and we drifted....became a country that stood for nothing but platitudes - the nice guys who nobody really listened to....the American haters.....the greed, the entitlement, the arrogance.....unfortunately proving that absolute power corrupts.

Chretien is gone. Quite a long time now.

I thought he stayed too long and I was disturbed by the fight that occurred for the leadership.

My thoughts on Martin was that he was a decent enough man being pulled in a variety of directions. I sincerely believe he thought he could expose the rot and be seen a reformer. However, the governance was unfocused and the rot that was exposed hurt him and the party.

As for Harper, I believe his focus has been on destroying the Liberals often to the detriment of his own party. He has decided to rule as a majority and felt he had no need to work with the other parties. This couldn't go on forever especially since Harper is very likely to call an election himself when it suits him.

I'm impressed with your research and knowledge on many of the issues.....but surely you can see the rotten, rudderless hulk that the Liberals have become - and Ignatieff is exactly what you KNOW him to be - someone who reluctantly came back to Canada to wear the crown - nothing else....in your heart you know that - I know you do. I agree that there are rough edges on the Conservatives....but for the most part, they stand on principle....some may not like individual principles - like Khadr, but they are not wishy-washy - you know where you stand.

If the principle is my way or the highway, it just doesn't work in a minority.

If you want big balls, they are right in your face now and it is hard to say you don't like the smell once they've been whipped out.

Edited September 6, 2009 by jdobbin

[Bryan]

If you want big balls, they are right in your face now and it hard to say you don't like the smell once they've been whipped out.

What are you drinking, and how many did you have before posting tonight?

[Bryan]

Many of these things were agressively opposed by the Liberals who upon election did a monumental about face and ran with the Tory plan. So once again the Liberals are opposing all things Tory but of course have no alternative plan.

That's nothing new. Vehemently opposing conservative policies, only to implement them once in power has been Liberal standard operating procedure for generations.

[waldo]

If you want big balls, they are right in your face now and it hard to say you don't like the smell once they've been whipped out.

What are you drinking, and how many did you have before posting tonight?

I do believe they are simply the "principled big balls of Conservatives" alluded to earlier... subject to the Conservative favoured influences of American style tea-baggers!

[jdobbin]

What are you drinking, and how many did you have before posting tonight?

Look, the shouts of coward every time an election was averted certainly didn't endear the idea of further cooperation. In June, the Liberals agreed to talks on one issue only and there was no sign of compromise at all.

There were a few people here who said the Liberals had no balls and the Tories would continue to roll over them till the election day. I guess we see that isn't going to be in the cards.

I'm sorry if you don't like the allusion but when people keep asking to see some balls, they shouldn't complain when it happens.

[Alta4ever]

Look, the shouts of coward every time an election was averted certainly didn't endear the idea of further cooperation. In June, the Liberals agreed to talks on one issue only and there was no sign of compromise at all.

There were a few people here who said the Liberals had no balls and the Tories would continue to roll over them till the election day. I guess we see that isn't going to be in the cards.

I'm sorry if you don't like the allusion but when people keep asking to see some balls, they shouldn't complain when it happens.

The liberals didn't ask for compromise they ask for a pannel which was agreed to. At that they demanded the numbers of hours worked to be chaged, they did not compromise either. Again you are deflecting though this topic is abou tthe liberals not the tories.

[jdobbin]

The liberals didn't ask for compromise they ask for a pannel which was agreed to. At that they demanded the numbers of hours worked to be chaged, they did not compromise either. Again you are deflecting though this topic is abou tthe liberals not the tories.

Absolute baloney. There was plenty of talk from the Liberals about finding a number that worked and the Tories said no changes period.

[Smallc]

I suppose the headline for this forum should read: MLW conservatives and libertarians support deficit.

[punked]

Absolute baloney. There was plenty of talk from the Liberals about finding a number that worked and the Tories said no changes period.

Know what I find funny. In the states as we speak there are Dems and Republicans meeting in the same sort of situation over health care. The Dems keep hearing NO to everything they say, but they keep going back to the table day in day out to see if they can work anything out. The Liberals hear no once they pick up their ball and go home. Funny thing is thought the Conservatives were still meeting last week in the panel with out the Liberals not becuase they kicked the Liberals out and don't care but because the Liberals gave up the first chance they could and shouted election.

Here is an idea Liberals instead of back dooring everyone to call an election on EI vote for the NDP bill on its third reading get what you want and give Canada what it wants. Wait you already passed that up and killed the bill for your panel. You sicken me.

[Keepitsimple]

Look, the shouts of coward every time an election was averted certainly didn't endear the idea of further cooperation. In June, the Liberals agreed to talks on one issue only and there was no sign of compromise at all.

There were a few people here who said the Liberals had no balls and the Tories would continue to roll over them till the election day. I guess we see that isn't going to be in the cards.

I'm sorry if you don't like the allusion but when people keep asking to see some balls, they shouldn't complain when it happens.

This thread really was about the fact that McCallum finally admitted that the way the Liberals "slew" the deficit on the backs of the provinces was a mistake......but since you'd like to talk more about defending the Liberals' call for an election, here's some excerpts from Greg Weston's column this morning:

Instead, his performance is neither natural nor polished, at times both awkward and dangerously unpredictable.

This past week, for instance, Ignatieff told reporters he thought the defining ballot question in the next election will be: "Who is best placed to lead Canada into the economy of tomorrow?

"The issue is competence and public confidence in fiscal management," he said.

Then this: "We will clean up the deficit without raising taxes."

The media immediately pounced, pressing Ignatieff to explain exactly how he would accomplish that feat.

Awkward shuffle

In response, Ignatieff did an awkward shuffle towards the exits and back to the microphone several times before he finally uttered: "Wait and see."

In the unforgiving heat of an election, campaign disasters are made of lesser things.

As pollster Nik Nanos observes: "Ignatieff can't afford to make any mistakes in an election campaign.

"Voters expect smart people not to make mistakes, and when they do, they tend to be more severely punished."

Iggy's personal performance aside, the Liberals have not articulated any coherent platform or vision of what they might actually do for Canadians in return for the keys to the limo pool.

In short, the entire Liberal election strategy to date largely rests on voters deciding it's time to kick out the Conservatives, signs of which are not yet apparent.

Truth is, the reason Canadians may be heading back to the polls for a fourth time in five years is all about Iggy.

His bizarre brinkmanship in June over employment insurance reforms -- promising to bring down the government and then immediately retreating -- left the Liberal leader looking indecisive, weak and more than a bit silly.

The Liberal leader, having painted himself and his party into a corner, decided the only viable escape is never again having to support the Tories.

Link: http://www.torontosun.com/comment/2009/09/...767481-sun.html

[jdobbin]

This thread really was about the fact that McCallum finally admitted that the way the Liberals "slew" the deficit on the backs of the provinces was a mistake......but since you'd like to talk more about defending the Liberals' call for an election, here's some excerpts from Greg Weston's column this morning:

And I have said that McCallum is wrong. The deficit was eliminated because of reductions of spending everywhere.