bush_cheney2004 Posted August 17, 2009 Report Posted August 17, 2009 I don't think anyone is supporting child pornography. Speaking for myself, I'm simply questioning why there has to be such an element of vindictiveness to the investigations, prosecutions and incarcerations of suspects and perpetrators. I see no reason why the entire enforcement/justice/penal system shouldn't be expected to maintain the same sense of impartiality that's expected from it in other cases. Other cases of what? Burglary? Shoplifting? Jaywalking? The elements of the offense include mere possession, just like scheduled drugs. I can see it now....decriminalize pot and kiddie porn...that's a winning ticket, eh? Anything less opens the door to giving the mob its say. Even worse is the effect of letting the anger of the mob seep into the system. I think the case of the young lady I described underscores how unneccesarily harmful it can be when this happens. Police lose their perspective which opens the door to abuse and if the public simply shrugs this off or worse actively supports it, I would suggest the descent down a slippery slope is well underway. "Society" has determined that the protection of children trumps other concerns, and when forced to make a choice, will vigorously move to stop even a perceived threat. This applies to family services, foster care, education, etc. My sentiment extends to the oft-expressed desire that people convicted of the sexual exploitation of kids be fed to the general prison population in hopes that these 'monsters' will get their justice at the hands of some other monster. In my opinion this is an even greater perversion. What happens when we let these other monsters out? I fail to see how society benefits from having people that have been given virtual carte blanch to commit the kinds of nightmarish things that belong in snuff films or slasher movies loose on the streets. Who says they will ever get out? Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Oleg Bach Posted August 17, 2009 Report Posted August 17, 2009 The boss is back - hello BC - yes...step forward and get rid of the precieved threat. If you even hint that you are about to eat our young - these old wolves are going to finish you off before you even formulate a plan to attack the pack's young - Pre-emptive strike against percieved pediphiles sounds fair to me...Why wait for someone showing the signs to attack? Practical and tactical types survive - Those that wait untill it's to late don't. I am a survior..and my hyper-vilgilence is not a mental illness. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 17, 2009 Report Posted August 17, 2009 ...Why wait for someone showing the signs to attack? Practical and tactical types survive - Those that wait untill it's to late don't. I am a survior..and my hyper-vilgilence is not a mental illness. Now..now...mustn't be so judgemental....just relax and be sophisticated like "European countries". Don't be a vindictive "Puritan".....LOL! Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Oleg Bach Posted August 17, 2009 Report Posted August 17, 2009 Now..now...mustn't be so judgemental....just relax and be sophisticated like "European countries". Don't be a vindictive "Puritan".....LOL! Children are our continuation as living entities. If someone is going to kill me though my offspring - sorry they have to go. First! Call me a puritan - all me a primative - but I will be around long after the soft spoken Euro trash grily men have sodomized themselves into the history....They just don't like the old tribal system because we do not submit to the idea that - I am here once and then I disappear...as if ten thousand years of genetic strain to survive means nothing. I am staying - they are leaving _ all I have to do is wait...and protect my children - even when they are forty.....and frankly if I was to have one more child before I leave this place - no one would know..because if they did - someone would want to destroy it...there are those who think in long term as far as maintaining their sick status quo - I swear they approve of child porn - for everyone else except for their progeney. Quote
eyeball Posted August 17, 2009 Report Posted August 17, 2009 "Society" has determined that the protection of children trumps other concerns, and when forced to make a choice, will vigorously move to stop even a perceived threat. This applies to family services, foster care, education, etc. So vigorously should include using violent criminals to mete out "societies" justice or shrugging it off when police lose their perspective? Who says they will ever get out? Prisoners have been given early release before to make room for new prisoners. Apparently it happens all the time. Link Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Argus Posted August 17, 2009 Author Report Posted August 17, 2009 If you want to support child pornography at any level, that's your business. But don't think you can do it legally in Canada either. One can feel some people are deserving of censure without wanting them drawn, quartered and the pieces fed to the hogs. Of course, I forgot I'm talking to a Republican. The only people in the western world who think Sharia laws are too slack. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 17, 2009 Report Posted August 17, 2009 So vigorously should include using violent criminals to mete out "societies" justice or shrugging it off when police lose their perspective? Yes...."society" includes penitentiaries and police departments. Even the scum of the earth have standards! Prisoners have been given early release before to make room for new prisoners. Apparently it happens all the time.Link Don't confuse "release" with getting out of the criminal justice system. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Argus Posted August 17, 2009 Author Report Posted August 17, 2009 You could teach Argus a lesson or two....he doesn't understand the marketing of porn and its relationship to the perception of risky behavior, "puritan" morality, or pushing the limits of society's taboos. Argus has been arguing porn laws with bluenoses for nigh on twenty five years and knows one helluva lot more about it than people who simply scowl and say "It's dirty! Kill them!" like you guys. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 17, 2009 Report Posted August 17, 2009 One can feel some people are deserving of censure without wanting them drawn, quartered and the pieces fed to the hogs. When it comes to child pornography, very few will give a damn how you feel on the matter. Good luck..... Of course, I forgot I'm talking to a Republican. The only people in the western world who think Sharia laws are too slack. I'm certainly not a Republican, but if it serves as your bogeyman so be it. What else can America do for you today? Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Oleg Bach Posted August 17, 2009 Report Posted August 17, 2009 Give them a reason to be - a reason to act - to hate --- don't let them suffer - let the dog bite..put on some protective gear first though - see - You are of great service. Quote
M.Dancer Posted August 17, 2009 Report Posted August 17, 2009 What else can America do for you today? I would like the Polka category reinstated in the Grammys.... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 17, 2009 Report Posted August 17, 2009 Argus has been arguing porn laws with bluenoses for nigh on twenty five years and knows one helluva lot more about it than people who simply scowl and say "It's dirty! Kill them!" like you guys. Wow...25 years...that...like....1984 ! You gotta be joking.....1984? Hell, Madonna was grinding her ass in our faces on MTV by then. 1984????? LOL! Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Argus Posted August 17, 2009 Author Report Posted August 17, 2009 "Moral purity" has nothing to do with my supporting laws against child pornography, so don't make things up. I'm especially against any crime committed that involves children, I'm especially against any abuse that involves children. I already made that quite clear because the child is helpless. The child has no say in the manner, unlike the adult who chooses to engage in unlawful behavior. Fine. But I'm also against any crime commited against children, any harm done to children. I simply do not see most of these guys as having commited any crime against children, unless it's something akin to a violation of privacy. Furthermore, it's not a "theory" that the guy downloading is contributing to 'a crime;' it's a fact, in both of our countries, that the person downloading child porn is committing a crime. Sure, but he could be licking the back of his cable bill and if we made that a crime he'd be commiting a crime. That wasn't (again) what I argued. I said he wasn't contributing to a crime against a child, ie, he was in no way affecting the initial crime against the child - presuming there was one - but merely looking at a picture long after the fact. As for how they are contributing to the crime of taking the photos, again I explained this quite clearly. If there were no market for child porn, there would be no child porn. Surely you are able to comprehend/understand that. Yes, but you see, having read all those cites, and others besides, I'm fully aware of how mistaken that belief is. You seem to be under the illusion there is some sort of "child porn industry" and there just isn't. I've already explained to you earlier what the bulk of the material on the internet consists of. Did you read none of it? As an example, teenagers 'sexting' pictures of themselves have been charged with making and distributing kiddy porn. Assuming someone posts one of these pictures on the internet (which happens frequently) any man who downloads the picture is now guilty of downloading child pornography. Please explain to me how that man "contributed" to the "crime". And I'm not speaking here of the taking of the picture but an actual sexual assault of some kind against a child - which did not happen since the "child" took the picture him/herself and sent it to someone willingly. Furthermore, since you can't prove the pictures in this instance were twenty years old, why do you keep stating that they were?? I don't know if you are correct in saying that 90% of internet porn is at least 10-15 years old or not, but it really makes no difference. For one thing, I'm sure a child who was forced into pornographic pictures is no less happy to have their picture on the internet today, as an adult, than they would be as a child. The way I look at it is if the kid is still a kid he doesn't know, and if he/she is now an adult, well, no one would likely ever recognize the picture as them anyway, and they'll never see it cause it's buried so deep underground. I don't see why i would be terriblybothered if there were explicit pictures of me as an eight year old on some server in Bosnia, and if I knew it I still wouldn't want the guy who downloads it to be sent to prison for twenty years. Furthermore, how do you know no one within a thousand miles is downloading the pictures? That's a crazy assumption. It's a pretty confident assertion. Despite what you might believe from the scaremongers there are very, very few of these people downloading child porn, and very, very few sites on the internet which allow you to download child porn. The average child porn site is up about 50 days before being pulled down, according to the cites earlier. Do you think they're making big money during that time? One last point. If someone is breaking the law downloading child porn, do you seriously think it's up to the police/courts to spend money and man hours doing detective work to find out how OLD the pictures are before determining if a crime has been committed or not? That's ludicrous. The agencies which combat child porn have extensive and very well-documented files of every child porn image they have come across. They're catalogued according to specific children, number of images for that child, and date when the image was first seen by them, along with any other information about it. In general, such organizations can view many, many thousands of child porn images from the internet without coming across a child not in their data bank. This is how they know when most of it originated and what most of it consists of. It is, for the most part, the same stuff reciculating endlessly, for years, and much of the newer stuff consists of teenagers screwing around with web cams, cell phones and camcorders. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted August 17, 2009 Author Report Posted August 17, 2009 Wow...25 years...that...like....1984 ! You gotta be joking.....1984? Hell, Madonna was grinding her ass in our faces on MTV by then. 1984????? LOL! And being an American you probably thought that was a very lewd video and ought to be banned. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 17, 2009 Report Posted August 17, 2009 And being an American you probably thought that was a very lewd video and ought to be banned. No, I was too busy laughing at youngsters like you who thought it was new and different. 25 years.....ROTFLMFAO !!!! Come back when you have some real experience and at least a half-ass understanding of American media and porn history. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
eyeball Posted August 17, 2009 Report Posted August 17, 2009 So vigorously should include using violent criminals to mete out "societies" justice or shrugging it off when police lose their perspective? Yes.... Does this capture the general feeling most people in this discussion have when it comes to the rule of law or how justice should be practiced? When it comes to child pornography, very few will give a damn how you feel on the matter. Isn't this why justice is supposed to blind? Letting the mob's mentality and outrage into the system doesn't do anyone any good. Justice should be meted out objectively without hate or vindictiveness. If we justify letting go of this principle in even one case we risk the temptation to let it go in others. At the end of the day I think this is more damaging to our society than any amount of child pornography or exploitation. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 17, 2009 Report Posted August 17, 2009 Does this capture the general feeling most people in this discussion have when it comes to the rule of law or how justice should be practiced? You are confusing justice and punishment. Once convicted and sentenced, they are subject to the same risks as any inmate. It's not a pleasant place.....except in Canada???? Isn't this why justice is supposed to blind? Letting the mob's mentality and outrage into the system doesn't do anyone any good. Justice should be meted out objectively without hate or vindictiveness. If we justify letting go of this principle in even one case we risk the temptation to let it go in others. At the end of the day I think this is more damaging to our society than any amount of child pornography or exploitation. Oh please...cry me a river. We "risk" a helluva lot more than that....every day. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Oleg Bach Posted August 17, 2009 Report Posted August 17, 2009 More damage than any amount of sexual abuse of children - Is that what I just read..that "vendictivness" or vindication are a BAD thing - that revenge or "justice" is a BAD thing? Then what is a good thing? Something that makes some freak feel good even though it perminently damages another human being? Why not just go for appeasement of the god Molock - and simply toss babes into the sacrafical furnace - to some that would make them feel good? To hell with that - vindication is a neccessity to survival - If you turn your back on a crimminal act - and let the crimminal go to commit further acts of crime - then it is you that has committed the crime. Quote
g_bambino Posted August 17, 2009 Report Posted August 17, 2009 You may be of that opinion, but the reality is quite different. Don't confuse perception with reality....there is plenty that is not tame. Even the likes of a relatively "tame" Playboy magazine went mainstream in the 1950's, years before any such thing existed in Canada....if it did at all. Al Goldstein and Larry Flynt pushed boundaries that Canadians could only dream of. Fast forward to today and we find a very diversified, $13 billion porn industry in America.....somebody is buying it. I know. And that's the ironic part about it; the US is the world's biggest producer of porn but, at the same time, slaps an R rating on a movie because it has a full-fontal nude scene in it, the phase "God damn" is bleeped out on television, and shows that contain uncensored nudity and/or swearing appear mostly - if not only - on premium channels like HBO. Playboy remains considered very much pornography; it's still stacked up on the highest shelf, bound in plastic-wrap. Meanwhile, in Amsterdam, you can take your family to the nude beach for the day and then go for a stroll to window shop for hookers. Quote
g_bambino Posted August 17, 2009 Report Posted August 17, 2009 I forgot I'm talking to a Republican. The only people in the western world who think Sharia laws are too slack. Yet want less government in their lives! Quote
Oleg Bach Posted August 17, 2009 Report Posted August 17, 2009 I know. And that's the ironic part about it; the US is the world's biggest producer of porn but, at the same time, slaps an R rating on a movie because it has a full-fontal nude scene in it, the phase "God damn" is bleeped out on television, and shows that contain uncensored nudity and/or swearing appear mostly - if not only - on premium channels like HBO. Playboy remains considered very much pornography; it's still stacked up on the highest shelf, bound in plastic-wrap. Meanwhile, in Amsterdam, you can take your family to the nude beach for the day and then go for a stroll to window shop for hookers. Shop for hookers? You can do that here - go to your local strip joint with a wad of cash and ask what they are making that evening - then double the price - and off you go. Prostitution is unsavory - and unfair to woman..and it dements them..but it is not porno - porno is like a dog that looks at a bowl of food and lusts but never eats. America is full of hungry dogs. Quote
g_bambino Posted August 17, 2009 Report Posted August 17, 2009 Shop for hookers? You can do that here - go to your local strip joint with a wad of cash and ask what they are making that evening Nope; you can't take your children into a strip club here. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 17, 2009 Report Posted August 17, 2009 I know. And that's the ironic part about it; the US is the world's biggest producer of porn but, at the same time, slaps an R rating on a movie because it has a full-fontal nude scene in it, the phase "God damn" is bleeped out on television, and shows that contain uncensored nudity and/or swearing appear mostly - if not only - on premium channels like HBO. That was true several years ago.....not any more. Plenty of "swearing" on the Comedy Central....including f-bombs. Playboy remains considered very much pornography; it's still stacked up on the highest shelf, bound in plastic-wrap. Meanwhile, in Amsterdam, you can take your family to the nude beach for the day and then go for a stroll to window shop for hookers. Because of children...not the adults. The focus is and always has been accessibility for adults.....not minors. Also, Canada ain't no Amsterdam either. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 17, 2009 Report Posted August 17, 2009 (edited) Nope; you can't take your children into a strip club here. Why not? Too puritanical? Maybe it's the booze too? Edited August 17, 2009 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Oleg Bach Posted August 17, 2009 Report Posted August 17, 2009 Nope; you can't take your children into a strip club here. What - what barbarism is this? No dancing girls for the children...some strippers are very artistic - yes it's sexy - and sometimes the performance surpasses sex. Seriously -as for places like Amsterdam...young woman who are "attarctive" are sometimes instructed to enter the 'sex trade' when applying for social assistance ---"You are healthy and pretty - you can work as a sex worker" - what the hell kind of society is that? Where young woman are destroyed --- I have never met a 'sex worker' - or a "stipper" that was not dysfunctional sexually and socially..they are ruined by this type of activity and will never make suitable wives or mothers - but then these liberal lunitics just love the idea of the family going extinct - as we f*** anything that moves and are occupied constantly with hedonism...makes for a very very controlable and docile population. Quote
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