Michael Hardner Posted July 25, 2009 Report Posted July 25, 2009 Argus, Uhm, no. OJ Simpson was not an honour killing. I'll grant you that some jealous men have killed their wives when they have left them or are fooling around with another man.This is different. This is the killing of women and girls, including ones own daughters or sisters, because some small thing they have done, such as being seen talking to a boy without a chaperone, or wearing clothing which is seen as too risque - ie, a anything but a chador, for example, or refusing to obey an arranged marriage. In other words, it is the killing of females family members, usually NOT ones wife, for not being properly submissive, obedient and docile. Find me an example of a Canadian - not an immigrant - murdering his daughter for wearing a short skirt, or his sister for dating a boy the killer didn't approve of, in order to preserve the family honour. Do you see what you're doing here ? You limit the definition of the problem, the crime, to something that's specific to the these people. Yes, this is a crime that's more specific to that group, but is it a reason to condemn the entire group ? Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
CANADIEN Posted July 25, 2009 Report Posted July 25, 2009 CANADIENIn that case, why are you spending so much debating with people that you don't think are worth debating ? I have to believe that Argus argues in good faith, as I do. In fact, the righties on these boards have changed my mind on some major issues - maybe 2 or 3 times. I won't claim that saying calling idiotic statements idiotic is debating. It's calling thing as they are. BTW, there has been intelligent arguments on this site that has convinced me that we need to be a lot more vigilant as to which INDIVIDUALS we let in the country. Ramblings fuelled by prejudice did not, and will not, do that. Quote
CANADIEN Posted July 25, 2009 Report Posted July 25, 2009 (edited) Argus,Do you see what you're doing here ? You limit the definition of the problem, the crime, to something that's specific to the these people. Yes, this is a crime that's more specific to that group, but is it a reason to condemn the entire group ? Many immigrants in the first half of the 20th century came from societies that harboured notions of honour very similar to those we find today in Middle Eastern and Pakistani societies. Christian societies from the mediteranean areas. And some of the first generation immigrants from those societies tried to bring those values with them. The word "honour killings" may not have been used, but it does not take much imagination to admit that there were cases when women would be beated or killed because they were transgressing unwritten codes of "honour". Of course, logic would dictate that immigrants from these societies did not by definition all embrace those notions of "honour". And that the criminals who commits these acts are not more or less guilty because of where they come from. And that these acts are to be condemned, and punished, and that they, and advocacy of them, will not be tolerated. Which means that the notion it has never happened before, or inflated figures on what is actually happening, or claims that virtually everyone from a given culture endorses that kind of action are not part of a solution; they are the beginning of another problem. Edited July 25, 2009 by CANADIEN Quote
Argus Posted July 25, 2009 Report Posted July 25, 2009 Which city? Ottawa Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Michael Hardner Posted July 25, 2009 Report Posted July 25, 2009 HydraBoss Well Michael, here's a policy discussion for you:No more Muslims allowed to immigrate to Canada. Is that enough of a stance for you? We identify a problem and then we take steps to implement corrective actions. I have to hand it to you that you're one of the few that will take the argument to this conclusion. I'm going to address the problems with your stance logically without calling you names: 1. You're overstating the problems caused by a minority of the identifiable group 2. You're punishing the overwhelming majority of those who want to come and be productive and peaceful citizens 3. You're ignoring the positive aspects of religiously observant life 4. You're denying those who want to come and leave behind old religious and cultural ways for the chance to come here 5. You're denying Canada a sure way to increase population and grow the economy. I notice that no one wants to address Argus' "KKK" question. Not palatable? The KKK was an organization dedicated to destroying non-white non-protestant peoples. If there were an equivalent group intent on coming here to destroy any other group, then we could discuss that. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Argus Posted July 25, 2009 Report Posted July 25, 2009 You all should really read the Qur'an no were in the Qur'an does it say that "honour killing" are ok, I can't remember it ever mentioning "honour killings" at all. As I said, it is true that the Koran does not sanction such murders, but man-made sharia law, which has been falsely imputed divine status, does allow for the killing of women if they indulge in pre-marital or extra-marital consensual sex. How to confront Honour Killings Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted July 25, 2009 Report Posted July 25, 2009 Coincidentally, Amin Muhammad is preparing a paper on honour killings for the Justice Department. It's interesting that he doesn't think religion is at the base of those killings. No Muslim seems to believe their religion is the base of any wrongdoing. Ironically, there was a comment by Jeffrey Simpson in the Globe about that this morning on an entirely different subject. The UNs Arab Human Development Report. The report, by Arabs, on the Arab world, paints a gloomy picture of human development, of, essentially no progress, economic or social, but as Simpson says The latest report, like the previous ones, offers a thorough and depressing analysis, but it omits all discussion of the Muslim faith, or at least how certain interpretations of the faith might be influencing or causing the region's “stubborn” problems. It's as if the authors collectively decided that Islam would be an analytical no-go zone Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Michael Hardner Posted July 25, 2009 Report Posted July 25, 2009 Argus/Dave_ON ArgusIt's always logically amusing when the Left adamantly refuses to allow statistics on crime to be collected, then sneers at people for making logical inferences without official statistics to back them up. I agree that we can't be afraid of ourselves anymore. This isn't the 1960s. Let's have a debate, but let's do it properly in a way that will show people that all points of view are being heard and addressed. Dave_ON Here in lies the issue with your entire argument. If it is so very obvious and observable why are you not able to produce, articles, facts, papers written by others to support your facts? Because you have discussed your preconceptions with others who happen to share them does not make them any more accurate. That is not a logical conclusion that is operating from preconceived notion and finding evidence that agrees with said notion and ignoring evidence to the contrary. As Argus has pointed out, we don't allow ourselves to collect these facts though. So Argus has no choice but to collect his data from first hand experience. Can you see the danger in allowing our collective ideas on race/religion/"identifiable groups" to proceed from a dialogue such as this ? I think we should at least publish statistics on attitude towards groups in the regions of Canada so that we can understand how we are. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Argus Posted July 25, 2009 Report Posted July 25, 2009 People blame "Islam" for the action of the radicals. The point here is that there's nothing in Islam or the Koran to validate their actions. Like certain Christian fundamentalist groups as well as extremists from other religions, they're using their own twisted version of the religion to justify their actions. The difference is that the mentality which says that women are possessions, that their violation of the "rules" should lead to death is not merely the view of a few "extremists" but is widespread and mainstream in many parts of the Arab world. This is why such murders are rarely ever prosecuted, despite how public they can be. When an entire extended family gets together to hang a girl from a tree - because she was raped - you can't simply call that the act of a lone extremist. And while the Korean might not specifically call for death, Sharia law certainly does, for any woman who dares to involve herself in sex outside of marriage. How many Muslims support Sharia law? Lots. I think it was reported here some time back that something like half of Muslims in Canada wanted Sharia law. They believe it is the divine word of God, and that Muslims should be living under its strictures. And in his column today in the Post, Tarek Fatah makes that point, among others, including that a female translation of the Koran is ignored and banned in Islamic stores, but more violent books, including one which is titled "Women Who Deserve to Go to Hell" - and no, it's not a comedy - is widely available in mosques and Islamic stores. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted July 25, 2009 Report Posted July 25, 2009 What is beyond me is how come an idiot like you is still at the party. I would think basic arithmetic and the complexities of tying shoes would be beyond you. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted July 25, 2009 Report Posted July 25, 2009 That being said, since YOU raised the issue, I wonder how YOU would welcome them, considering you share with the KKK some similar opinions about immigrants, and you fondness for a time when your neighbourhood was whiter. On the contrary. I share nothing with the KKK. I think the underlying problem of your continued misapprehension of my positions is related to your sub par IQ and your lack of education. Clearly you don't understand English very well and so you get confused whenever anyone uses words of more than one syllable. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted July 25, 2009 Report Posted July 25, 2009 Yeah... I went back and checked the first page of this thread. You didn't make it clear there that you were referring to Radical Islam... and you couldn't even make it thorugh this post without generalizing all Muslims. I don't make much of a distinction myself when it comes to women. Any Muslim who feels that women should be wrapped in bedsheets is a lost cause, as far as I'm concerned. You can call them moderate or mainstream if you choose. I just call them religious wackos. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted July 25, 2009 Report Posted July 25, 2009 Why is it of all the cases in Canada where parents murder their children you only go on these posting blitzes when the case involves a family who is Muslim?Do the lives of white children not matter to you? Are you racist against white people? All murder bothers me. That's one of the reasons why I'm in favour of much stricter laws and punishments for those who commit acts of violence. However, virtually all murders of children are done within families by people who are, to put it mildly, mentally distraught. They are generally spur of the moment things, usually done with the assistance of large doses of alcohol, drugs and a heaping helping of mental illness. There isn't a whole lot more we can do to combat that other than be wary during marital breakdowns (when such things usually occur) and improve our treatment of mental health problems (we have a long way to go there). The issue of Honour Killings is unique in that it is a cultural phenomenon which is widely supported by members of given communities which we are importing into Canada. It stems from the again widely supported belief that women are the property of men and must be docile, obedient and chaste in all things, including appearance. And that violence is an appropriate solution to those women who fail to appreciate the importance of that to the honour of their families. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
DogOnPorch Posted July 25, 2009 Report Posted July 25, 2009 Ultimately, the goal of multiculturalism is to get cultures to mix and respect each other. This would include intermarriage which already occurs...probably not enough. Honour Killing will become a bigger issue when one's immediate culture is affected by it. A non-Islamic daughter marrying into a strict Islamic family might be an example. The difference I see between this type of murder and "regular murder" as a result of domestic violence is that in an honor killing situation, you might have an entire family/clan plotting your murder. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Argus Posted July 25, 2009 Report Posted July 25, 2009 I wonder if Mr.Canada could cease spelling "honour" in the American fashion. I can't speak for him, but I know that every time I spell honour in the British fashion Firefox's automatic spell checking underlines it in red and suggests I change it to honor. I assume Explorer's default settings are also set to US English. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
DogOnPorch Posted July 25, 2009 Report Posted July 25, 2009 To add...multiculturalism is about respect between cultures. Islam has a PR problem where a great many people in our culture simply don't respect it on any level. It doesn't matter that some Muslims are great people, etc. It's respect for the culture rather than the individual that will need to be addressed...and not addressed by non-Muslims. Reform must come within. Do we have 500 years to wait for Islam to join the 21st century? Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
DogOnPorch Posted July 25, 2009 Report Posted July 25, 2009 Both spellings of honor/honour are correct. But try spelling it "Pearl Harbour" and you'll get an ear-full. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Argus Posted July 25, 2009 Report Posted July 25, 2009 The real insult here is actually the way Argus keeps insulting logic and common sense. Now that's amusing. First, I'm not sure you can even spell those words without resorting to your spell checker. Second, while I constantly argue from the point of view of cold (which is your real problem) hard logic, your responses are replete with emotional whiny complaints about my being mean to this or that group. In fact, I have a point of view which tends to be conservative. And I judge every individual and group irrelevant to their national origin, religion or ethnic identity based on that point of view. If, according to my standards, they act, think and behave like morons, then I tend to dismiss them as such, and with bald, blunt honesty. I don't care if it offends the tender minds of the politically correct. I don't care if it offends the morons. I don't care if my dry humour offends the humourless. I most especially don't care that any of it or all of it offends you. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
DogOnPorch Posted July 25, 2009 Report Posted July 25, 2009 Here's an interesting example of this honour in action. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8168480.stm Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Argus Posted July 25, 2009 Report Posted July 25, 2009 Argus,Do you see what you're doing here ? You limit the definition of the problem, the crime, to something that's specific to the these people. Yes, this is a crime that's more specific to that group, but is it a reason to condemn the entire group ? As long as the crime is the product of the cultural values that group clings to. Because it is that which really bothers me. It is the continued arrival in Canada of tens of thousands of people who cling to a medieval religious culture which has values antithetical to mine. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Michael Hardner Posted July 25, 2009 Report Posted July 25, 2009 DoP: Firstly, as we've stated - dropping individual incidents doesn't tell us much except that these incidents do happen. Secondly, there's about an 80% chance that these people weren't Muslim, so it doesn't speak to the OP in the thread, unless you're trying to tell us that honour killings aren't exclusively Muslim in nature. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Argus Posted July 25, 2009 Report Posted July 25, 2009 To add...multiculturalism is about respect between cultures. Islam has a PR problem where a great many people in our culture simply don't respect it on any level. It doesn't matter that some Muslims are great people, etc. It's respect for the culture rather than the individual that will need to be addressed...and not addressed by non-Muslims. Reform must come within. Do we have 500 years to wait for Islam to join the 21st century? We're still waiting for them to join the 20th century. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Michael Hardner Posted July 25, 2009 Report Posted July 25, 2009 Argus, As long as the crime is the product of the cultural values that group clings to. Because it is that which really bothers me. It is the continued arrival in Canada of tens of thousands of people who cling to a medieval religious culture which has values antithetical to mine. Where is the cold hard fact that establishes that the value, rather than something in the individual produces, or causes, the crime ? Where is the cold hard fact that says that these groups cling to their culture more than others on the whole ? You aren't living up to your stated ideal of following facts, and in fact it's almost impossible to do so without cultural bias in these cases as I've stated. Do you seriously want to start doing "social accounting" on these issues, adding one honour killing per year to the "costs" column and "contributing to Canada's economy" in the "benefits" column ? I ask sincerely here. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
benny Posted July 25, 2009 Report Posted July 25, 2009 Honor killing is not very different from what westerners have known as duel. Quote
DogOnPorch Posted July 25, 2009 Report Posted July 25, 2009 Honor killing is not very different from what westerners have known as duel. When's the last 'duel' you saw? We call them gang shootings now...quite illegal. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
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