Canadian Defends Anti-Medicare Ad

[benny]

Responsible??

While the surgeons are operating them, they are not operating other persons.

Edited July 24, 2009 by benny

[scorpio]

While the surgeons are operating them, they are not operating some else.

Uh, the "poor" Americans couldn't afford insurance anyway under the current system. So it seems your point is rather moot.

[benny]

Uh, the "poor" Americans couldn't afford insurance anyway under the current system. So it seems your point is rather moot.

Unemployed surgeons could operate at affordable prices.

[scorpio]

Unemployed surgeons could operate at affordable prices.

Didn't know there were unemployed U.S. surgeons but if so it would be a great idea.

[benny]

Didn't know there were unemployed U.S. surgeons but if so it would be a great idea.

Obama knows.

[Radsickle]

You must be spending too much time over at "rubble".com. Where are your manners?

One of the best things about this board is that for the most part people are civil! You almost ALWAYS attack ad hominem and emotionally!

You're not the only one. The past few months seem to have shown more and more of these kinds of posts. Still, you ARE a prime example!

I'm not a moderator but if this behavior is going to become the norm for MLW then I will vote with my feet and move on. I was disgusted with "rubble" and appreciated finding this board. If it goes the same way then I'm gone!

I'm not trying to make some pompous statement. I really don't care how anyone else might feel about it. I just don't enjoy that sort of atmosphere.

I may or may not represent a significant number of members who feel the same way and would also bail. I don't care. I just want to participate somewhere civilized!

Perhaps it's just human nature. Perhaps all boards eventually deteriorate into "rubble". I don't know.

I just know I'm getting tired of an ignorant and severe lack of manners.

You can criticize the left, dismissing us all as `boneheads' in all your other posts but I can't respond to a few individuals who insulted me first? I smell a rat.

According to many of your posts, the liberals and the NDP are what's wrong with Canada. You, sir, should understand that you are also a `prime' example of the entropy you whine about... and you've been here much longer than me! Be as self-righteous as you want but your manipulations are impotent when you partake of the same petty politics.

[Radsickle]

This thread merely proves the passion of the posters on the topic. Specifically you are viewing an American responding to a health care issue in their own nation and Canadians trying to support their beliefs in their own system. There is little room for tolerance on these grounds so a natural response is one of anger and fear.

This topic does bother me a lot. Our health care is a sacred cow. It needs improving, true. But I seriously doubt Shona Holmes' intent is to provide constructive criticism. She only wants to be on TV. She doesn't represent anything more than her own big toe.

Edited July 25, 2009 by Radsickle

[Werecar]

The article, and subsequently many of the blogs got me thinking about our system and the problem inherent in it and I’m honestly at a loss for how to fix it. The issue as I see it is not that the government does not want to provide the services, or even most of the tax payers for that matter, but that the demand is high and the supply is low and therefore the services must be rationed accordingly. At a glance it appears the solution is quite simple, hire more doctors. While this would certainly solve the problem that is much easier said than done as the Tories no doubt have learned since 2006. Now don’t get me wrong I don’t fault them for not fulfilling their promise as it is nigh on impossible to fulfill. We are competing with a country that has turned healthcare into a multibillion dollar business that is extremely lucrative for any type of specialist. The problem with our system is not so much a shortage of GP’s it’s a shortage of specialists. Now it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to understand that, someone that has spent a large part of their adult life to become a specialist when presented with two options, to work in Canada or in the US for more money, generally the more money option is going to win out.

Its not quite that simple. First off, health care is a provincial matter so the federal government has little ability to affect change. At best they can publicly announce increased funding via transfers to the provinces and hope they follow suit. The other thing is they can directly fund specific hospitals but thats politically difficult.

Its the medical institution itself that keeps the #s of Doctors low. Here in Ontario we only have a self imposed shortage and thats after Dalton paved the way for lots of new staff. Due to our capped funding the medical community wants to keep doctors at certain levels under the theory of the pie. More people = smaller slices.

Honestly our public system can’t compete with the salary possibilities that the US can offer. The only advantage we have in Canada is that the amount of malpractice suites are significantly lower and some doctors see that as balancing out the salary differences.

I know. I'd make double working in the states in my field. Of course that means that we get more cost efficient health care because more money goes to things other then salary.

Another factor that most people don't realize is that under our system billing is capped. Facilities bil the government on a per service/test basis until they reach their funding cap. The kicker is that although they cannot bill anymore they are contractually required to continue to offer that test.

For example. In my lab we get paid per test we run until we reach a set amount. After that we still keeping doing the tests but receive no more money. In Ontario that means the 3 private labs do about 150 million in unpaid work per year and its rising. Under a US system we would not do this. What this means is that in actuality Ontarians receive more services then they pay for to their net benefit.

We are a private lab operating in a universal care system. If we were operating in a US system then not only would we make more but the free work would evaporate. That would mean a large cost increase to the patients without any increase in actual services provided.

Something to think about when people talk about ditching universal care for a user fee system.

[Alta4ever]

This topic does bother me a lot. Our health care is a sacred cow. It needs improving, true. But I seriously doubt Shona Holmes' intent is to provide constructive criticism. She only wants to be on TV. She doesn't represent anything more than her own big toe.

to you it may be a sacred cow but you have not been on the receiving end of the health rationing. You look a ding person in the eyes and tell them that the medical procedure offered is adequate, but you know its not the best and likely will not do anything, yet unapproved treatment and unlikely to be approved because of cost (that is working across the boarder) is unatainable. Now that you have explained ot the mother that she will die despite the treatment, because it really isn't the right one explain that again to her son.

Our health care system is a sham and a crock I have experienced it first hand, I have now bought the proper insurance (critical illness) so if I need it I can travel across the boarder to get the treatment I will require. If I had choice here in Canada, I would not need to buy excess insurance to get proper treatment.

For those of you who think our healthcare system is a sacred cow are pathetic.

[Radsickle]

yee haw, pard'ner. Guess that makes me `pathetic'. Got any other insults to throw?

Are all Albertans as `sane' as you?

What makes you ASSume that I haven't experienced our health care system as much as you?

Edited July 25, 2009 by Radsickle

[Alta4ever]

yee haw, pard'ner. Guess that makes me `pathetic'. Got any other insults to throw?

No we all know you are an impetuous 12 year old who understands nothing but the propaganda pumped into them by their social teacher.

Obviously you don't seem understand to healthcare and the human aspect in it you are more interested in your ideology of socialism rather then actually helping people.

BTW I would report you for your response, but you just made my arguement so I will over look it. My mis-guided friend.

Edited July 25, 2009 by Alta4ever

[Radsickle]

No we all know you are an impetuous 12 year old who understands nothing but the propaganda pumped into them by their social teacher.

I hope Wild Bill is taking note of who's antagonizing who....

Obviously you don't seem understand to healthcare and the human aspect in it you are more interested in your ideology of socialism rather then actually helping people.

BTW I ould report you for your response. But you just made my arguement so I will over look it. My miss guided friend.

huh?

[Radsickle]

how do you spell argument?

[Alta4ever]

how do you spell argument?

does it matter? Not really, just proves you have nothing valid to say.

[Radsickle]

blah blah blah, oh competitive one.

If only life were like Fox TV, eh?

Edited July 25, 2009 by Radsickle

[Alta4ever]

blah blah blah, oh competitive one.

If only life were like Fox TV, eh?

If only life were as simple and start forward as impetuous teenagers wished it to be.

Are you ready to move on yet and address the merits of the argument or pout because i called your worship of a your so called "sacred cow" pathetic?

[Wild Bill]

I hope Wild Bill is taking note of who's antagonizing who....

You seem to have a very digital form of logic. If one person is in the wrong how does that automatically make the other right?

You can BOTH be wrong!

You seem to think that you have the right of retaliation. That's not the way I felt this board operated. Aside from the odd slip, most folks that feel another poster has offended them that badly make a report to the moderators and let them handle it.

You just seem to let fly from both barrels!

There is also the 'ignore' list in the control panel. I have half a dozen or so names blocked, not because I disagreed with their politics but because I was disgusted by their lack of manners! Except for one name. I blocked him because he was so predictable he actually became boring!

Anyhow, the list works great for me to keep my aggravation level down.

I really can't spare the effort to read back and find out whether you or Alt4ever hurled the first rude insult. I really don't care! When you do this, you both turn debate into juvenile drivel.

And for the record, if you had read my posts long enough you would have found it obvious that I hardly am the world's biggest CPC champion. I continue to vote for them only because to me they smell the least of all rank choices!

That being said, I could switch my vote in a heartbeat if the Liberals changed their philosophies! I actually consider myself more of a 'classic' Liberal, which the present Liberal party hasn't resembled for generations, if ever.

Still, just because I don't like a party doesn't mean I would try to win an argument over something they had done or proposed by called them rude names.

Or calling another poster rude names.

Enough! I suspect we may be so different that you can never understand my POV. That's your right and I support it. However, nothing says I have to stick around and listen to yours!

I won't call you names. I'll simply go for a coffee! Maybe load up a Pat Travers or Frank Marino LP on my turntable! If things become less rude, then no big deal. If they go the other way, then I'll decide about adding to my 'ignore' list.

And if your way becomes the norm for this board, there's other things to do.

[Smallc]

I have now bought the proper insurance (critical illness) so if I need it I can travel across the boarder to get the treatment I will require.

Good luck with them covering any pre existing condition. Our system isn't perfect, but there is a reason that so many of us fight so hard for it, and it has little to do with ideology. By the way, unapproved treatments are almost never used in Canada, because we couldn't afford to pay for all of them. That said, you're usually quite able to buy them yourself, even here.

[Alta4ever]

Good luck with them covering any pre existing condition. Our system isn't perfect, but there is a reason that so many of us fight so hard for it, and it has little to do with ideology. By the way, unapproved treatments are almost never used in Canada, because we couldn't afford to pay for all of them. That said, you're usually quite able to buy them yourself, even here.

Their is no pre existing contition at this point, that is why I was able to buy the policy. We were not able to buy able to buy the procedure and our healthcare system would not allows us to take the funds that they had allocated for my mother here and use them anywhere else where. My family was on the receiving end of getting what the government would provide, not what the best solution even the doctor that was watching my mother due said as much. A place which actually had a working treatment. Our Doctors are neither the best or the brightest just what is deemed adiquate by our government. Those that are the best simple fail to stick around, they go south where yhe pay is better and the resereach is better because it is funded by the private sector.

[bush_cheney2004]

.....Our Doctors are neither the best or the brightest just what is deemed adiquate by our government. Those that are the best simple fail to stick around, they go south where yhe pay is better and the resereach is better because it is funded by the private sector.

This is a very important point. Don't assume that doctors, nurses, and other medical professionals are just plug n' play pieces for the social good. If fees are capped, then some will look elsewhere for better fees and compensation.

[Werecar]

Don't be so sure of that:

http://www.chsrf.ca/mythbusters/html/myth29_e.php

MYTH Canadian doctors are leaving for the United States in droves

Myth Busted June 2001

Busted Again! September 2005

Yet Again! March 2008

Higher incomes, newer equipment and more opportunities - for some Canadian physicians, the United States seems to have it all. i Some critics have long alleged that because of the “exploitative nature of medicare,” Canadian doctors cannot resist heading south. ii More recently, some argue that this brain drain is a “major contributor to physician shortages in Canada,” iii prompting physician associations and ministries of health to launch campaigns to lure expatriate, Canadian-trained physicians back home. iv Fears of physician losses are further fuelled by reports that the U.S. - renowned for luring more physicians than any other country v - could be short 85,000 doctors by 2020. vi

There’s no doubt that Canada - like other wealthy nations - is losing some of its physicians, particularly to the U.S., vii and that this emigration represents a loss for Canadians. However, when it comes to the brain drain, it’s nowhere near a mass exodus. At worst, it’s more a trickle than a flood.

Entry and exit

Physicians enter and leave the country for a number of reasons. For instance, some Canadian doctors go overseas for medical training, then return home to practise. Foreign medical school graduates may arrive with temporary work visas or as landed immigrants, practise in Canada for awhile, leave, and even decide to return eventually. viii

The Canadian Institute for Health Information charts migration patterns for practising physicians. The data exclude interns, residents and doctors who leave Canada right after graduation without ever working here, but they still provide important information on trends. According to the Institute’s data, the gross number of doctors leaving the country hit two peaks in the last 35 years: one in the late 1970s, when we lost between 500 to 600 doctors a year, and another in the mid-1990s, when we lost around 600 to 700 a year. When assessing the brain drain, it’s important to consider not only the number of doctors who are leaving, but also the number returning to Canada. This number has been holding fairly steady since 1980, with around 250 to 350 returning per year. Thus, our net loss of physicians is fairly small - since 1980, our annual net loss has never been more than one percent (and averages closer to one quarter of a percent) of all practising physicians. ix, x

In recent years, not only has the brain drain trend slowed, it has actually reversed. In 2004, there was a net brain gain of 85 doctors. Although this gain has decreased as of late - a net gain of 61 doctors in 2005 and 31 in 2006 ix, x - the data still counter popular perceptions that Canadian doctors are leaving in droves.

The data also disprove claims that the brain drain is responsible for Canada’s doctor shortage. In 2006, there were 62,307 active physicians in Canada - the highest number ever, largely attributable to a more than five percent increase in Canadian-trained physicians over the last five years. ix The 2006 data also show a five percent increase in physicians between 2002 and 2006, which is just over parity with population growth over the same time. ix

An important issue in all of this is where our doctors are coming from. In 2006, of the 238 returning physicians, about 190 had received training in Canada, while the rest were trained mostly in the UK and Ireland, but also South Africa, India and elsewhere. ix In the same year, international medical graduates accounted for 22 percent (13,715 doctors) of the total physician supply in Canada. ix If this means Canada is “poaching” doctors from countries that have a much more limited ability to train physicians and handle internal crises in population health, then this is a serious public policy problem. xi

Destination U.S.

Of the doctors who are leaving Canada, more than half choose to go to the U.S. ix The Canadian Institute for Health Information has been tracking doctors’ destinations only since 1992. Since then, between 60 and 70 percent of physicians who emigrate have headed south of the border. In the mid-1990s, the number leaving for the U.S. spiked at about 400 to 500 a year. However, in recent years, this number has declined, with only 169 physicians leaving for the States in 2003; 138 in 2004; and 122 in each of 2005 and 2006. These numbers represent less than half a percent of all doctors working in Canada.

Popular culture’s obsession with the "mass exodus" of Canadian-trained physicians to the U.S. has meant little attention is given to the movement of physicians from one Canadian jurisdiction to another. In particular, physicians appear to be moving “from less prosperous to more prosperous provinces and from rural to urban areas,” xii which likely exacerbates real shortages in rural, remote and economically disadvantaged areas.

Conclusion

Over time, annual losses of physicians can add up - if we lose even a handful of physicians each year, in 25 years we will have lost a stock of Canadian-trained doctors. This point merits our attention, for educating our physicians is a costly, time-intensive investment - it costs about $1.5 million to train a doctor, much of which is paid for through taxes. xiii There is also the real concern of physician retention in rural and remote areas. vii To address these problems and ensure Canadian taxpayers are able to benefit from their investment, provincial and federal policy makers should focus on co-ordinated national recruitment and retention strategies to retain and sustain our physician supply in all regions of the country.

Edited July 25, 2009 by Werecar

[bush_cheney2004]

Don't be so sure of that:

I am very sure...."elsewhere" includes Canada (and capped fees).

[Alta4ever]

Don't be so sure of that:

http://www.chsrf.ca/mythbusters/html/myth29_e.php

MYTH Canadian doctors are leaving for the United States in droves

Myth Busted June 2001

Busted Again! September 2005

Yet Again! March 2008

Higher incomes, newer equipment and more opportunities - for some Canadian physicians, the United States seems to have it all. i Some critics have long alleged that because of the “exploitative nature of medicare,” Canadian doctors cannot resist heading south. ii More recently, some argue that this brain drain is a “major contributor to physician shortages in Canada,” iii prompting physician associations and ministries of health to launch campaigns to lure expatriate, Canadian-trained physicians back home. iv Fears of physician losses are further fuelled by reports that the U.S. - renowned for luring more physicians than any other country v - could be short 85,000 doctors by 2020. vi

There’s no doubt that Canada - like other wealthy nations - is losing some of its physicians, particularly to the U.S., vii and that this emigration represents a loss for Canadians. However, when it comes to the brain drain, it’s nowhere near a mass exodus. At worst, it’s more a trickle than a flood.

Entry and exit

Physicians enter and leave the country for a number of reasons. For instance, some Canadian doctors go overseas for medical training, then return home to practise. Foreign medical school graduates may arrive with temporary work visas or as landed immigrants, practise in Canada for awhile, leave, and even decide to return eventually. viii

The Canadian Institute for Health Information charts migration patterns for practising physicians. The data exclude interns, residents and doctors who leave Canada right after graduation without ever working here, but they still provide important information on trends. According to the Institute’s data, the gross number of doctors leaving the country hit two peaks in the last 35 years: one in the late 1970s, when we lost between 500 to 600 doctors a year, and another in the mid-1990s, when we lost around 600 to 700 a year. When assessing the brain drain, it’s important to consider not only the number of doctors who are leaving, but also the number returning to Canada. This number has been holding fairly steady since 1980, with around 250 to 350 returning per year. Thus, our net loss of physicians is fairly small - since 1980, our annual net loss has never been more than one percent (and averages closer to one quarter of a percent) of all practising physicians. ix, x

In recent years, not only has the brain drain trend slowed, it has actually reversed. In 2004, there was a net brain gain of 85 doctors. Although this gain has decreased as of late - a net gain of 61 doctors in 2005 and 31 in 2006 ix, x - the data still counter popular perceptions that Canadian doctors are leaving in droves.

The data also disprove claims that the brain drain is responsible for Canada’s doctor shortage. In 2006, there were 62,307 active physicians in Canada - the highest number ever, largely attributable to a more than five percent increase in Canadian-trained physicians over the last five years. ix The 2006 data also show a five percent increase in physicians between 2002 and 2006, which is just over parity with population growth over the same time. ix

An important issue in all of this is where our doctors are coming from. In 2006, of the 238 returning physicians, about 190 had received training in Canada, while the rest were trained mostly in the UK and Ireland, but also South Africa, India and elsewhere. ix In the same year, international medical graduates accounted for 22 percent (13,715 doctors) of the total physician supply in Canada. ix If this means Canada is “poaching” doctors from countries that have a much more limited ability to train physicians and handle internal crises in population health, then this is a serious public policy problem. xi

Destination U.S.

Of the doctors who are leaving Canada, more than half choose to go to the U.S. ix The Canadian Institute for Health Information has been tracking doctors’ destinations only since 1992. Since then, between 60 and 70 percent of physicians who emigrate have headed south of the border. In the mid-1990s, the number leaving for the U.S. spiked at about 400 to 500 a year. However, in recent years, this number has declined, with only 169 physicians leaving for the States in 2003; 138 in 2004; and 122 in each of 2005 and 2006. These numbers represent less than half a percent of all doctors working in Canada.

Popular culture’s obsession with the "mass exodus" of Canadian-trained physicians to the U.S. has meant little attention is given to the movement of physicians from one Canadian jurisdiction to another. In particular, physicians appear to be moving “from less prosperous to more prosperous provinces and from rural to urban areas,” xii which likely exacerbates real shortages in rural, remote and economically disadvantaged areas.

Conclusion

Over time, annual losses of physicians can add up - if we lose even a handful of physicians each year, in 25 years we will have lost a stock of Canadian-trained doctors. This point merits our attention, for educating our physicians is a costly, time-intensive investment - it costs about $1.5 million to train a doctor, much of which is paid for through taxes. xiii There is also the real concern of physician retention in rural and remote areas. vii To address these problems and ensure Canadian taxpayers are able to benefit from their investment, provincial and federal policy makers should focus on co-ordinated national recruitment and retention strategies to retain and sustain our physician supply in all regions of the country.

Your artical misses the point so badly its not about the numbers of doctors leaving, its about the quality of doctors leaving. Its our best and brightest. Just a question for you werecar If Canada's healthcare system is so stellar why is it when you are searching for the best most innovative and quickest healthcare why is it you head to the United States? Why is health tourism such a big cash cow in this country, its because our one size fits all health care system meets our basic needs but is useless beyond acess to your family doctor. If this wasn't the case then insurance companies would not offer long term care insurance, critical illness insurance, and people would not be buying.

It funny all you can quote is articals, you have never been affected by the current incarnation of todays health care. I wonder how you will feel about it when one of you parents or grand parents is deigned a hip replacement because they are too old, and you are forced to watch as their quality of life slips away from them, as they lose the mobility and subiquently just give up on life sit and stare out a window in an old folks home just waiting for death. Trust me it is not fun.

[benny]

If I would be a Canadian physician, I would consider going to work in the US for the very same reasons that pushed Hugo Chavez to send to poor Americans some of Venezuela oil.

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2006/01/12/Ven...90901137126295/

[bush_cheney2004]

If I would be a Canadian physician, I would consider going to work in the US for the very same reasons that pushed Hugo Chavez to send to poor Americans some of Venezuela oil.

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2006/01/12/Ven...90901137126295/

Canada sends oil to poor Americans too.