Werecar

Yet nowhere did I do that. I attacked the myths that were being posted not the poster who then attacked me. Gee, and claiming the entire health care system in Canada is a rotting host makes you a smart and informed poster eh? Yes you have and in fact you said it was DOA in 1993. Canada already has a public-private system and many aspects of health care are in fact private. Now I seem to be getting pms from other posters telling me that you are a known troll and they have you on ignore so I guess we are done here.

Whatever you say sunshine. Its another forum standard to claim that a persons post count is directly proportional to the strength of their argument. In this debate I provided links and articles supporting my position only to have you 2 clowns claim that was all I had and that somehow a single personal experience trumped it. I then provided information that I not only had personal experience but professional experience and you jumped on that to claim that I was somehow a special interest person with an agenda (by extrapolation any health care worker qualifies). Then you claimed that because I support universal health care I somehow think we don't need to try and improve the system. Going back your entire argument has been "Canada's entire health care system is broke and we need to chuck it all in favour of a US style system".

Again, right back at you sunshine. No you guys just claim it. Its obvious you know nothing about either system whatsoever. Being an ass again aren't you? You persist in being an ass and posting a straw man attack. You seem to think that any improvement means chucking universal health care and that and defence of universal health care means we think everything is fine. You are being an ass to me and aren't interested in any real discussion about how to improve the system. Troll on Macduff.

Right back at you sunshine. You complain about me behaviour yet you didn't say thing one about him being an ass to me first. I do know about a burn centre and its obvious you guys don't understand how the US medical system works in the least. In other words you don't understand my POV at all do you? I don't believe everything is OK. I believe Canada's universal health care is a superior system for providing health care for its citizens. It seems to me that other then complaining about the system you guys don't have much to contribute about how to improve it other then posting myths about wait times and Canadians streaming across the border to get treatment they can't get here.

Don't hand me that. I noticed you didn't call him out when he was acting like and ass and then you yourself acted like an ass to me thereby further exposing your hypocrisy. As for not supporting changes and/or improvements to the system well thats just nonsense. We debate how to improve the system all the time. Don't mistake supporting universal health care with some false belief that we think everything is okey-dokey.

I suggest you go back and read exactly where he got insulting first and got the response he deserved. Calling all health care workers who support our system is just plain ignorant and under a US style system I'd be making more money so its downright illogical as well. If I willing support a system that pays me less money I must be doing it for a reason.

Actually no. Americans keep claiming that because US hospitals won't let people bleed out they somehow have universal health care plus. The end result is our system provides equivalent care at no direct cost. Yes people die and according to all the stats they die younger and more often in the US. Look it up if it helps you. Meaning my experience is greater then yours and your no doubt rewarding baskin robbins career. Mine is also topical but if I ever have a tough case of brain freeze then I'll call you. Yes we all know about taxes but considering you pay almost 3X as much per capita then you need a new vendor. Nope. In fact we provide cheaper clinical drug trial testing then in the US. Try again because I can swat anti-Canadian health care posts out of the air with not only personal experience but stats and cookie goodness.

The end result is you Americans are claiming universal health care by claiming US patients cannot be refused service. Thats a lie. Only life threatening conditions are required and all are billed so its never free. Thats simply a lie. the US system lets poor people die. Ours does not. Period. Actually I'm spot on. They don't. Its free. Under the US system they would be left to die as any other uninsured person. Prove it. My lab offers more testing the US labs because Ontario requirements demand it.

Let me stop you right there. A burn center isn't an ER service? You need to understand what services US facilities can refuse on and the are greater then you think. Still "recover cost" means what? They take your house? Wonderful. In other words the us system is like ours but less efficient.

No. They are only required to provide ER services although it does vary from state to state. They are not required to provide all services and can refuse treatment. Billing just further disparages it. So you get ER treatment then have to pay 5 grand. Wonderful. Can you provide evidence where it costs nothing and provide data as to how often it will happen?

On a life threatening ER basis only. For anything else no US health care facility is required to treat you although they may be required to provide a list of referrals. Break your arm without coverage and see how much it costs you.

You have that. You can go to any hospital or clinic in Canada and receive treatment. In the US you can only go to a place you can afford.

Politicians don't make the choice and they don't restrict treatment. Even if your provincial health plan doesn't financially cover it you can still pay for it just like private care.

As opposed to insurance companies deciding it?

What about the Americans with horror stories of their own?

I'd much rather have in place a system that will care for me rich or poor with the same dedication and professionalism.

Are you honestly saying that you are the only person here who has experienced the health care system???? Thats just silly.

Then there are no bad stories in the states eh? Every medical story is a happy outcome and all the stories about the uninsured all made up? No denials of treatment for insurance reasons? No declaring bankruptcy for treatment? You truly haven't thought this through have you?

They aren't. I already posted about that myth getting busted.

1) You have no evidence. What you have is a single example that can easily be countered with lots more examples of how well it works. For evidence I point you to the stats concerning such things as infant mortality, life expectancy, cancer survival rates, etc. That points to lots and lots of success stories. 2) Denigned is should be denied. In addition blame your PC government and Stelmach. Here in Ontario, the cradle of socialism it works fine. 3) "If our health care was so great we would have no waiting lists, our elderly would get the hip replacements and other quality of life services that see to be denied if you do not fit the criteria" Don't be so naive. No system is perfect and if you think the US system is then you need to lay off the crack pipe dude. How many in the US go without because they have no insurance or because their insurance carrier denied their claim? Obviously you have no knowledge whatsoever on this point. 4) "we have buercrats decided what kind and level of service you will get, and its pathetic.". Wrong. Under our system only doctors determine what healthcare we get. In the US system you need insurance approval or else its unaffordable and thats just those with insurance. 5) "Our citizens should get the best treatment everytime, not the only one the local/regional hospital provides." Ignorance is bliss. Explain the droves of Americans going south for affordable healthcare then. I see. I'm biased because I work in our system (and btw participate in workshops to improve it) but you will post US medical support for their system as proof eh? Show me that 100% of Americans get the right treatment each and every time. Hell, show me 100% of insured Americans getting the right treatment each and every time. BTW, the fact that per capita the US spends almost 3 times as much as we do yet lags behind us in key stats doesn't bother you eh? Did you ever consider that if we put as much money into our system as the US does you would get what you want? Really, you are just embarassing yourself. All you have is a bitter experience for which you have clearly demonstrated you don't have proper details about nor any reasonable claim that under a US system you would have fared better.

In other words you got nothing but a bitter experience because someone in your life died and you blame the entire system. That would never happen under a US system of care. BTW sunshine, I've shared enough personal experiences with you as I care too. I have lost family and I have also had family saved by our system. You just want to troll anybody who doesn't agree with you. So far on the topic of Canadian healthcare I have: 1) Professional experience. 2) Professional discussions with all related fields working in the system. 3) Personal experience with myself and friends and family. 4) Lots of articles and stats supporting my position. You have: 1) A bitter experience which you use to denigrate the entire Canadian health care system and everybody who works in it and supports it. You are done sunshine. Say goodnight and walk off with at least some shred of dignity left because you have no facts or evidence to support your poor opinion of the system that seems to beat the US system in all the stats that count.

Yeah, I thought as much. With your argument in tatters and your points defeated you toss out an ad hominem attack on me insinuating that because I support (and attack all the other health care workers who do as well) our health care system I somehow provide crap service. Got news for you sunshine, my lab is a private lab and thus equal to any US lab (we are US certified btw). The only difference is that under Canadian/Ontario billing we provide free health care. What do you do sunshine? Can I insult your level of commitment and professionalism based on your political beliefs also?

Thats a myth. In fact the conservative core dismisses Chretien and Martins financial accomplishments because Mulroney was the guy who brought in the GST during the 90s recession. During the boom years we kept hearing about how Ottawa was running such a good surplus they needed to slash taxes. We can;t have it both ways and claim that taxes need to be slashed both in boom times and in bust times. As for your deficit point, well the reason there is a deficit is because the government is spending more money then they are taking in through revenues and they do what primarily through taxes. If we want to avoid a deficit then we have 2 ways to do it and they are pretty self-evident. 1) Lower spending. 2) Raise taxes. For the record both Dion and Layton did have various tax measures that would have had little negative impact economically but good impact on the federal coffers. Iggy has only said he doesn't rule out a tax increase in the future in order to restore the fiscal balance (ie get rid of the deficit). Harpers policies are clearly designed to win voter support with his "no tax hike" rhetoric but it makes for irresponsible government because in the long run we pay far more in taxes servicing the debt that his policies will keep adding to.

Excuse me? Now I see why radsicle has so much of a problem with you. I repeat: Really? You know my personal experiences based on a few posts eh? Shall I tell you about my mother and cancer? My father recently getting 2 stents implanted after a heart attack? Shall I explain to you that I am a health care worker and I have actual knowledge of the system? Have you talked to actual physicians about this very topic? Did you work for a pathologist who left the US and emigrated to Ontario and sings the praises of our system? Did you talk to a OB-GYN who left the US because malpractice insurance was so bad? Not only do I have real life experience that at least equals yours but I work in the health care field. Do you not think we debate the merits of our system vs the US system at length? In fact I posted real industry evidence about how Ontarians (and my lab works in all the provinces now so likely the same for them) receive some 150 million in extra care per year because of our system thereby providing services they might not otherwise be able to afford.

Its too bad that you have no proof of that isn't it? http://www.denverpost.com/recommended/ci_12523427 Myth: Canadians are paying out of pocket to come to the U.S. for medical care.Most patients who come from Canada to the U.S. for health care are those whose costs are covered by the Canadian governments. If a Canadian goes outside of the country to get services that are deemed medically necessary, not experimental, and are not available at home for whatever reason (e.g., shortage or absence of high tech medical equipment; a longer wait for service than is medically prudent; or lack of physician expertise), the provincial government where you live fully funds your care. Those patients who do come to the U.S. for care and pay out of pocket are those who perceive their care to be more urgent than it likely is. In fact just google "Canada+health-care+myths" and see how wrong you are. This one is pretty good: http://crooksandliars.com/bluegal/rachel-m...h-edwards-shows Really? You know my personal experiences based on a few posts eh? Shall I tell you about my mother and cancer? My father recently getting 2 stents implanted after a heart attack? Shall I explain to you that I am a health care worker and I have actual knowledge of the system? Have you talked to actual physicians about this very topic? Did you work for a pathologist who left the US and emigrated to Ontario and sings the praises of our system? Did you talk to a OB-GYN who left the US because malpractice insurance was so bad? Funny how I quote actual articles and stats and all you have is a few incidences that are countered by all the other people with great experiences?