Israel soldiers on Gaza: Excerpts

[dub]

Read my post above Dub. Golly, sometimes I wonder. Did I not give the criteria where they should have as much sypathy? Do they fit gays? If so then my answer is yes. If not then no.

And, it has nothing to do with numbers.

okay then.

in your world, it has nothing to do with numbers.

you believe the homosexuals should receive the same sympathy as the jews, for what happened in the holocaust.

you also believes that 3 people dying should receive the same attention as 900 people dying. because numbers do not matter.

i don't believe a word you've said.

Where have I denied it? Once again your reading impediment comes into question. I said it was not official policy.

where have you denied it? you said it's individuals doing it and not the government. reality says something else.

Dub, now you are just twisitng words. Nowhere did I say that Hamas pretended to be Israeli troops. Hamas has absolutely nothing to gain by sending rockets into israel yet they do it. Do you think they are stupid when they do it and then have the entire population of Gaza standing there with video cameras shooting at nothing? They send rockets in order to garner a reaction which will then be filmed to show the world how evil the Israelis are for attacking them.

hamas' official reason for the rockets is israel's occupation of their land and the blockades that have been happening since hamas came to power.

i don't really know if this is true, but i imagine they shoot those rockets in order to bring fear into the israeli civilians. if they're able to kill somene, i'm sure they give an extra high five.

but yeah, regardless of why they do it, it's still wrong since it's targeting civilians.

oh by the way, just so we're all clear, hamas was in the 3rd month of a ceasefire, where they did not fire any rockets at israel, when suddenly israel attacked and killed a group of hamas members. it was after this that hamas started firing rockets and immediately after that, israel unleashed it's american military weapons.

Dub, at times, certaiin factions of Palestinians have made peace treaties and overtures. While encouraging, the other factions who do not agree break them. As i have stated over and over again here, I specify that a unified Palestinian entity which has proven itself to be able to speak for the entire population must make this peace. Neither of the two examples above could or can do that.

arafat had the support of both west bank and the gaza. he was the true palestinian leader and he had accepted israel's right to exist since 1988 and then re-confirmed it at the oslo agreement. that's a pretty big step, don't you think? do you know how many settlements were dismantled during that time? do you know how much it increased by?

did you know that bibi, the same guy who is PM now, put up 34 new settlements when he came to power after rabin was assassinated by a crazy zionist?

did you know that the so-called left wing barak government, even though it pledged no more settlements, approved 22 outposts?

after him, sharon took power and even more settlements were approved and created.

this continues today.

so don't give me this shit about " it's not state policy ". like it means anything.

israel's actions speak louder than words.

you should be honet about the israeli government and their official and unofficial policies.

Edited July 22, 2009 by dub

[KrustyKidd]

you believe the homosexuals should receive the same sympathy as the jews, for what happened in the holocaust.

Dub, I read this first point of yours and had to just stop. You are either totally illiterate or a complete moron as I have continually said;

If gays were persecuted in a political manner and, had an entire logistical apparatus set up to exterminate them then YES, ROGER, AFFIRMATIVE, YOU 'BETCHA, DAM RIGHTS, 'YO DUDE, YEA, They should have the sympathy of the entire world including myself.

Now, produce this process and rhetoric from Nazi Germany that shows an entire nation and it's energy geared towards exterminating homosexuals in order to prove they were persecuted like the Jews and lets move on.

DUB, IF THE HOMOSEXUALS OF GERMANY WERE PERSECUTED, HAD AN ENTIRE APPARATUS DESIGNED TO EXTERMINATE THEM, AN ENTIRE POLITICAL MOVEMENT GEARED TOWARDS ERRADICATING THEM THEN REGARDLESS OF NUMBERS, THEY SHOULD HAVE THE SAME SYMPATHY AS THE JEWS DID.

Now, before we move on, do you have the proof and the numbers? If you do, I agree, if you do not then you have no point in this case and we move on.

[tango]

DUB, IF THE HOMOSEXUALS OF GERMANY WERE PERSECUTED, HAD AN ENTIRE APPARATUS DESIGNED TO EXTERMINATE THEM, AN ENTIRE POLITICAL MOVEMENT GEARED TOWARDS ERRADICATING THEM THEN REGARDLESS OF NUMBERS, THEY SHOULD HAVE THE SAME SYMPATHY AS THE JEWS DID.

(KK, WHY ARE YOU YELLING AT DUB?)

The apparatus of extermination was designed and used for every group that Hitler wanted to destroy, including ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust..._and_death_toll

Jews 5.9 million

Soviet civilians 6million (debated)

Soviet POWs 2–3 million

Ethnic Poles 1.8–2 million

Romani 220,000–1,500,000

Disabled 200,000–250,000

Homosexuals 5,000–15,000

Jehovah's

Witnesses 2,500–5,000

total number of Holocaust victims is between 11 million and 21 million people

The Soviets have the highest death toll, if all are all included, but I'm not very knowledgeable about that debate.

The genocide in Poland is particularly underreported/unknown. It was Poles harbouring Jews, as often presented, but also systematic genocide against Poles themselves beginning with political officials, professionals, academic, cultural and religious leaders, etc. Approximately 12% (3m) of Poles were killed by Hitler, and possibly as many again died in Soviet 'labour camps'.

The Romani people too were hard hit, perhaps out of proportion to their numbers.

I would speculate that homosexuals would be hard to identify since many more than today would be 'in the closet'. However, I'm sure they got as many as they could.

In his 'purification of the Aryan race', Hitler did exterminate other 'undesirable' (to him) groups as well as Jews.

Why is there more attention to the genocide of Jews?

I think they have taken a more active role in educating the world about the holocaust.

Maybe they were more concentrated in Germany, thus the single most identifiable group to the world?

Perhaps the Soviets didn't want to acknowledge the extent of destruction of their population?

Perhaps the disabled, Romani and homosexuals still have more 'enemies' in the world who don't acknowledge their loss as important?

[DogOnPorch]

Why is there more attention to the genocide of Jews? I think they have taken a more active role in educating the world about the holocaust.

Maybe they were more concentrated in Germany, thus the single most identifiable group to the world?

Perhaps the Soviets didn't want to acknowledge the extent of destruction of their population?

Perhaps the disabled, Romani and homosexuals still have more 'enemies' in the world who don't acknowledge their loss as important?

While other groups suffered at the hands of the Nazis during WW2...particularly the Soviet POWs, they didn't get singled out like the Jews before the war. Kristallnacht, for example. The gays, Poles etc, do not have an equivalent.

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/

http://www.holocaust-history.org/der-ewige-jude/stills.shtml

The Grand Mufti and his men were responsible for the death of most of the Gypsies...plus nearly every Jew in Hungary and Romainia, as well. Here are some of his victims arriving at Auschwitz-Birkenau.

http://www1.yadvashem.org/exhibitions/albu...witz/index.html

[KrustyKidd]

(KK, WHY ARE YOU YELLING AT DUB?)

Simply because I am tired of explaining this criteria to him (four times now) and then have him march off chanting that I said the exact opposite.

DOP

While other groups suffered at the hands of the Nazis during WW2...particularly the Soviet POWs, they didn't get singled out like the Jews before the war. Kristallnacht, for example. The gays, Poles etc, do not have an equivalent.

Exactly.

[DogOnPorch]

DOP

Exactly.

The persecution of the Jews in Germany goes back to the Middle-Ages re: the Christ Blood Libel. The Renaissance and such lessened the anti-Semitism, somewhat (ok...not much)...but it really varied across the different regions of the yet to be unified Germany. All in all, though, the Germans were a superstitous lot back then. The Witch Craze of the 1600s hit there hardest...anti-Semitism, too. Not a surprise.

But, the persecution of Jews in relation to The Holocaust started with the Nazis gaining power. First came the Boycott (1933) the the Nuremberg Laws (1935)...Crystal Night (1938). Many German Jews were not 'dealt with' until 1941-42 when the deportation of German Jews to the East occured...all the while being treated horribly. Oddly, the German Jews tended to think that the Nazis would spare them as they were more German than Jewish. Guess again... People think the damnedest things when cornered.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_boycott_...wish_businesses

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Laws

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristallnacht

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_libel

[M.Dancer]

Shouldn't this thread more correctly be called;

Anonymous individuals claiming to be solidiers but apparently clueless on the the ROE and international law support equally clueless AI?

[dub]

Now, before we move on, do you have the proof and the numbers? If you do, I agree, if you do not then you have no point in this case and we move on.

do i really need to show proof? why don't you wiki it like you wiki everything else. here, i'll make it easy for you.

as far as "numbers" that you want; why does it matter? you said numbers don't matter. 5000 gays killed by the nazis vs 6,000,000 jews killed by nazis is pretty much the same thing. according to you that is.

okay, so, considering the persecution that the homosexuals received by the nazis, you believe homosexuals and jews should receive the same level of sympathy and receive the same amount of attention. glad we could get that out of the way.

[dub]

Shouldn't this thread more correctly be called;

Anonymous individuals claiming to be solidiers but apparently clueless on the the ROE and international law support equally clueless AI?

i might as well have titled the thread;

war crimes apologists will go to any length to try to justify and apologize for war crimes.

[KrustyKidd]

do i really need to show proof? why don't you wiki it like you wiki everything else. here, i'll make it easy for you.

Thanks but normally I go to the source rather than rely on Wikipedia l;ike you do. In any case, I cannot find a negative which is why I asked you for the proof.

DUB, IF THE HOMOSEXUALS OF GERMANY WERE PERSECUTED, HAD AN ENTIRE APPARATUS DESIGNED TO EXTERMINATE THEM, AN ENTIRE POLITICAL MOVEMENT GEARED TOWARDS ERADICATING THEM THEN REGARDLESS OF NUMBERS, THEY SHOULD HAVE THE SAME SYMPATHY AS THE JEWS DID.

Now, before we move on, do you have the proof and the numbers? If you do, I agree, if not, I do not.

as far as "numbers" that you want; why does it matter? you said numbers don't matter. 5000 gays killed by the nazis vs 6,000,000 jews killed by nazis is pretty much the same thing. according to you that is.

That would be correct my fellow gentle poster Dub. However, first, we need to be shown how the gays were hunted down, dehumanized, an entire logistical extermination movement and execution system was set up specifically for them and then, some numbers (even if it were one) top prove it actually occurred. I do realize they were persecuted however, not even remotely to the extent as the Jews were on a continental level. (In case you didn't know about this, it is called the 'Holocaust.'

okay, so, considering the persecution that the homosexuals received by the nazis, you believe homosexuals and jews should receive the same level of sympathy and receive the same amount of attention. glad we could get that out of the way.

You have not shown that homosexuals were the sole focus of an entire nation's hatred. Please do so now so that I can agree with you.

[dub]

Thanks but normally I go to the source rather than rely on Wikipedia l;ike you do. In any case, I cannot find a negative which is why I asked you for the proof.

DUB, IF THE HOMOSEXUALS OF GERMANY WERE PERSECUTED, HAD AN ENTIRE APPARATUS DESIGNED TO EXTERMINATE THEM, AN ENTIRE POLITICAL MOVEMENT GEARED TOWARDS ERADICATING THEM THEN REGARDLESS OF NUMBERS, THEY SHOULD HAVE THE SAME SYMPATHY AS THE JEWS DID.

Now, before we move on, do you have the proof and the numbers? If you do, I agree, if not, I do not.

That would be correct my fellow gentle poster Dub. However, first, we need to be shown how the gays were hunted down, dehumanized, an entire logistical extermination movement and execution system was set up specifically for them and then, some numbers (even if it were one) top prove it actually occurred. I do realize they were persecuted however, not even remotely to the extent as the Jews were on a continental level. (In case you didn't know about this, it is called the 'Holocaust.'

You have not shown that homosexuals were the sole focus of an entire nation's hatred. Please do so now so that I can agree with you.

i gave you a wiki link and you didn't read it.

here, i'll paste from it:

Since the 1980s, some European and international cities have erected memorials to remember the thousands of homosexual people who were murdered and persecuted during the Holocaust. Major memorials can be found in Berlin, Amsterdam, Montevideo, and San Francisco.[6] In 2002, the German government released an official apology to the gay community.

In 2005, the European Parliament marked the 60th anniversary of the liberation of the Auschwitz camp with a minute's silence and the passage of a resolution which included the following text:

"...27 January 2005, the sixtieth anniversary of the liberation of Nazi Germany's death camp at Auschwitz-Birkenau, where a combined total of up to 1.5 million Jews, Roma, Poles, Russians and prisoners of various other nationalities, and homosexuals, were murdered, is not only a major occasion for European citizens to remember and condemn the enormous horror and tragedy of the Holocaust, but also for addressing the disturbing rise in anti-Semitism, and especially anti-Semitic incidents, in Europe, and for learning anew the wider lessons about the dangers of victimising people on the basis of race, ethnic origin, religion, social classification, politics or sexual orientation...."

now should the homosexuals and jews should receive the exact same sympathy, krusty?

[KrustyKidd]

i gave you a wiki link and you didn't read it.

here, i'll paste from it:

now should the homosexuals and jews should receive the exact same sympathy, krusty?

Not until you can show how the entire nation and it's political will were specifically targeting them. As far as I can tell, Jews were the main focus;

ANTI-JEWISH LEGISLATION IN PREWAR GERMANY

Antisemitism and the persecution of Jews represented a central tenet of Nazi ideology. In their 25-point Party Program, published in 1920, Nazi party members publicly declared their intention to segregate Jews from "Aryan" society and to abrogate Jews' political, legal, and civil rights.

Nazi leaders began to make good on their pledge to persecute German Jews soon after their assumption of power. During the first six years of Hitler's dictatorship, from 1933 until the outbreak of war in 1939, Jews felt the effects of more than 400 decrees and regulations that restricted all aspects of their public and private lives. Many of those laws were national ones that had been issued by the German administration and affected all Jews. But state, regional, and municipal officials, on their own initiative, also promulgated a barrage of exclusionary decrees in their own communities. Thus, hundreds of individuals in all levels of government throughout the country were involved in the persecution of Jews as they conceived, discussed, drafted, adopted, enforced, and supported anti-Jewish legislation. No corner of Germany was left untouched.

The Holocaust was the systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of approximately six million Jews by the Nazi regime and its collaborators. "Holocaust" is a word of Greek origin meaning "sacrifice by fire." The Nazis, who came to power in Germany in January 1933, believed that Germans were "racially superior" and that the Jews, deemed "inferior," were an alien threat to the so-called German racial community.

During the era of the Holocaust, German authorities also targeted other groups because of their perceived "racial inferiority": Roma (Gypsies), the disabled, and some of the Slavic peoples (Poles, Russians, and others). Other groups were persecuted on political, ideological, and behavioral grounds, among them Communists, Socialists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and homosexuals.

So, once again, other than honorable mentions, the persecution of Jews represented a central tenet of Nazi ideology whereas the other groups did not.

[Bonam]

now should the homosexuals and jews should receive the exact same sympathy, krusty?

What's this sympathy you keep talking about? What sympathy do Jews get nowadays? The only Jewish state in the world pretty much just gets the negative attention of most nations and many international organizations, as you yourself constantly point out. And Jews that live in other countries are generally well integrated and receive no special sympathy. Germany still pays reparations to individuals who lived through the Holocaust (of which none will be left in another 30-40 years tops), but that's about it.

[dub]

What's this sympathy you keep talking about? What sympathy do Jews get nowadays? The only Jewish state in the world pretty much just gets the negative attention of most nations and many international organizations, as you yourself constantly point out. And Jews that live in other countries are generally well integrated and receive no special sympathy. Germany still pays reparations to individuals who lived through the Holocaust (of which none will be left in another 30-40 years tops), but that's about it.

the debate has mutated into this from when krusty claimed that 3 civilians dying is the same as 900+ civilians dying and that they are equal, despite the huge difference in numbers. if you want to know the context, read the thread. frankly, this is another one of krusty's outlandish and ridiculous claims. however, it's nothing compared to him equating the support for gandhi to support for bush.

[Bonam]

the debate has mutated into this from when krusty claimed that 3 civilians dying is the same as 900+ civilians dying and that they are equal, despite the huge difference in numbers.

They aren't equal. Palestinians die despite the efforts of Israel to reduce casualties among them, while Israelis die because Hamas specifically targets civilian areas. The number of Israeli dead are few only because Israel's military is effective while Hamas terrorists are inept. I still don't see your point about "sympathy for Jews". I certainly don't see this sympathy, certainly not from yourself for example. You seem to write off the 13 Israeli dead as "not enough" when comparing it to the Palestinian death toll. Would you be happier if 900 Israeli civilians had been killed?

[dub]

They aren't equal. Palestinians die despite the efforts of Israel to reduce casualties among them, while Israelis die because Hamas specifically targets civilian areas.

israel does not target civilian areas?

[Bonam]

Israel targets areas that contain military targets, be they militants, their launch sites, or places where they keep their supplies. The presence of civilians in these areas is sometimes taken into account and strikes are called off for that reason, or the civilians are warned in advance. On other occasions, strikes may be carried out despite the presence of civilians. But the targets are nevertheless military. That is unavoidable given the areas from which Hamas chooses to stage its military campaigns.

Hamas, on the other hand, clearly targets specifically civilians. They certainly never call off strikes due to the presence of Israeli civilians.

Tell me, do you really fail to see the distinction?

[dub]

Israel targets areas that contain military targets, be they militants, their launch sites, or places where they keep their supplies. The presence of civilians in these areas is sometimes taken into account and strikes are called off for that reason, or the civilians are warned in advance. On other occasions, strikes may be carried out despite the presence of civilians. But the targets are nevertheless military. That is unavoidable given the areas from which Hamas chooses to stage its military campaigns.

Hamas, on the other hand, clearly targets specifically civilians. They certainly never call off strikes due to the presence of Israeli civilians.

Tell me, do you really fail to see the distinction?

that's a good war crimes apologist statement you made. it's too bad the investigations and also the IDF soldiers' testimonies have revealed israel has targeted civilian areas, with no or little regard for the civilians being killed. this is why israel is being accused of committing war crimes.

[M.Dancer]

that's a good war crimes apologist statement you made. it's too bad the investigations and also the IDF soldiers' testimonies have revealed israel has targeted civilian areas, with no or little regard for the civilians being killed. this is why israel is being accused of committing war crimes.

What IDF soldiers testimony? To my knowledge no one in the IDF has claimed anything of the sort. There are some who claim to be IDF, but one read of what Dub has posted and it's apparent they are idiots. and most likely frauds. Why else would they refuse to ID themselves?

For the record, Israel has been accused of crimes but remains innocent.

[dub]

What IDF soldiers testimony? To my knowledge no one in the IDF has claimed anything of the sort. There are some who claim to be IDF, but one read of what Dub has posted and it's apparent they are idiots. and most likely frauds. Why else would they refuse to ID themselves?

For the record, Israel has been accused of crimes but remains innocent.

israel has not been able to disprove the mounting evidence showing that they've committed war crimes.

they refuse to participate in or cooperate with in any of the independent investigations. for a country who claims to be 'innocent', they do a miserable job showing that they are.

okay. now your turn to make excuses.

[Bonam]

israel has not been able to disprove the mounting evidence showing that they've committed war crimes.

Innocent until proven guilty.

they refuse to participate in or cooperate with in any of the independent investigations.

No one wants to subject themselves to a witch trial if they can avoid it.

[dub]

No one wants to subject themselves to a witch trial if they can avoid it.

which trial? are you being an apologist again?

we have a few different human rights organization trying to investigate these "allegations". if israel is so confident about its innocence, then why not present something to counter the mounting evidence that israel has committed war crimes?

Edited July 26, 2009 by dub

[wulf42]

Well regardless what anyone thinks the Israeli's have the firepower and the will to crush their enemies and will use maxium force to do it!...........the fact Hamas deliberately launches rockets to Kill Civilians is hardly mentioned in this thread, those filhy animals launch rockets from on top of an apartment knowing damn well Israel will retaliate and hit that building in defence! That is beyond a war crime its setting their own people up to make the Israeli's look bad!! this is the animal the Israeli's face

and it is the same animal we face in Afghanistan .....the only thing these maggots understand is overwhelming force

Israel understood this years ago and the west is slowly catching up............unfortunately many Palistinian sympathizers on here think that that Hamas are some kind of freedom fighters....lol they like the Taliban are worse than the Nazis .....they are a group that cannot be reasoned with, the only way to deal with them is to completely and fully annihilate them and hurt them to the point they cannot function............the U.S. is now bombing and taking out the Talibans poppy fields cutting off their only means of money....first take away their ability to fight then steamroll them into dust! There is no room on this planet for Muslim extremist's!

[Shraytus]

I wouldn't be surprised if any Israeli soldiers came forward describing war crimes committed by the Israelis, they'd be called anti-semetic or a bigot or whatever is in style these days. One can speak out against Saudi Arabia, UAE, or Iran, but say one word about the Israeli conquest and you're instantly labelled as anti-Judaism and you're compared to the Nazis.

[KrustyKidd]

I wouldn't be surprised if any Israeli soldiers came forward describing war crimes committed by the Israelis, they'd be called anti-semetic or a bigot or whatever is in style these days. One can speak out against Saudi Arabia, UAE, or Iran, but say one word about the Israeli conquest and you're instantly labelled as anti-Judaism and you're compared to the Nazis.

In order for it to be a war crime, proportionality has to be considered as well as deliberate action intended to kill civilians. On the other hand, we know that hamas deliberately uses their own people as human shields and, uses terrorism as policy.

Weighing Crimes and Ethics in the Fog of Urban Warfare

Under international law, proportionality is defined as a question of judgment, not of numbers: Is the potential risk to civilians excessive in relationship to the anticipated military advantage? That puts the weight on military advantage, since civilian risk is a given and must only not be “excessive.” Even if the target is legitimate, was the right weapon used to try to minimize civilian damage? The key is the expected damage the commander anticipated from the use of a certain weapon, and not what actually happened when it was fired.

The other key legal principle is discrimination: has a military struggled hard enough to hit only military targets and combatants, while trying to avoid purely civilian targets and noncombatants?

hooting rockets out of Gaza aimed at Israeli cities and civilians is an obvious violation of the principle of discrimination and fits the classic definition of terrorism. Hamas fighters are also putting civilians at undue risk by storing weapons among them, including in mosques, schools and allegedly hospitals, too, making them potential military targets. While urban and guerrilla warfare is not illegal, by fighting in the midst of civilians, often in civilian clothing, Hamas may also bring risk to noncombatants.

OMG! The Red Cross has something good to say about Israel!

Since then, the Red Cross has noted improvements, even praising Israel for trying to avoid civilian casualties and provide humanitarian assistance in a briefing for Europeans in Tel Aviv, according to a European diplomat who attended the briefing.

Pierre Wettach, head of the organization in Israel and the Palestinian territories, said of the Israel Defense Forces in an interview: “I believe there is a true concern on the part of the I.D.F. to address these things, which are extremely complicated to organize.”

Hamas's Palestinian Victims: Human Shields

As the media broadcast and discuss images of destruction in the Gaza Strip, it is essential that they recall, and alert the public to, the context within which those images exist — most narrowly, that during the fighting Hamas launched attacks against Israel from crowded and built up civilian areas.

By basing its leaders, fighters and rocket launchers near or inside homes, mosques and schools, Hamas chose to put its neighbors in the line of fire, and invited destruction that, even with today's most advanced guided weapons and with unprecedented attempts to reduce civilian casualties, is an inevitable result of contemporary urban warfare.

Some media reports have referred to the mingling of Hamas fighters among civilians as merely an Israeli claim. One unsigned report by the Associated Press, for example, reported that "Israel says Hamas militants are launching rockets from civilian areas and using non-combatants as human shields" (emphasis added; AP, "Israel denies attack on clan members in Gaza town," Jan. 10, 2009).

This is a partial and misleading truth. In fact, it is not only Israel but also independent journalists and Palestinian witness who have attested to Hamas's self-serving and illegal tactic.

To be sure, Israeli officials and soldiers have drawn attention to the issue. Gabriela Shalev, the Israeli ambassador to the United Nations, said on Jan. 14, 2009 that "Hamas and terrorists like it ... view civilians not as a population to be avoided in an armed conflict but as a population to be exploited in an armed conflict." Israeli soldiers have told reporters of discovering schools rigged with explosives and homes serving as weapons depots, and intelligence officers have noted that some Hamas leaders took shelter in a hospital basement. Maps seized during the military operation provide other examples of the organization's intentional mixing of weapons and civilians.