Israel soldiers on Gaza: Excerpts

[dub]

You have self reported as an apologist for terrorism.....rocket attacks and suicide bombings are OK by you because they "only" date to the 1990's. LOL!

you're lying again but you can continue repeating that.

No you don't...you haven't condemned the Palestinian actions at all. You are an apologist. Must sterilize!

sure i have. perhaps your attention span problem is getting in the way of picking these things up.

[wulf42]

Because I am not an apologist....I am a rabid supporter of Israel.

That makes two of us!!!

[Bonam]

the first suicide attack in israel was in the 1990's and i'm not aware of any beheadings. the occupation and the systematic annexation of palestinian land has been happening for close to 5 decades by israel.

Are you saying you believe that there was no violence on the part of "Palestinians" towards Israel prior to the 1990s?

Violence on the part of the Arabs towards Jews in the land of Israel has been happening since before the formation of the state of Israel, hence why Jews have been forced to defend themselves against Arabs, and why the state of Israel has periodically been forced to take harsh measures.

Edited July 21, 2009 by Bonam

[KrustyKidd]

Are you saying you believe that there was no violence on the part of "Palestinians" towards Israel prior to the 1990s?

Violence on the part of the Arabs towards Jews in the land of Israel has been happening since before the formation of the state of Israel, hence why Jews have been forced to defend themselves against Arabs, and why the state of Israel has periodically been forced to take harsh measures.

To be fair and unbiased I have to inform you Bonam that the murderous Israelis needlessly conducted Operation Spring of Youth and Operation Wrath of God against certain Palestinian gentlemen.

This proves that the violence was only against Palestinians.

Right Dub?

[dub]

Are you saying you believe that there was no violence on the part of "Palestinians" towards Israel prior to the 1990s?

Violence on the part of the Arabs towards Jews in the land of Israel has been happening since before the formation of the state of Israel, hence why Jews have been forced to defend themselves against Arabs, and why the state of Israel has periodically been forced to take harsh measures.

violence between the two has been happening for a long time and many civilians have been killed as a result. the numbers are very disproportionate. almost as disproportionate as the 3 israeli civilians killed vs more than 900 palestinians civilians killed recently.

i believe israel is going to finally come to terms that greater israel will not happen and the palestinians will have their own legitimate state.

due to technology, the world has become way too small and there is only so much information from the region that can be ignored. this problem for israel is already apparent, where an israeli human rights organizations has started giving palestinians camcorders to record the abuse they go through by the hands of the IDF and the settlers.

there is also the emergence of some of the arab countries, especially in the gulf, whose economic power will bring some political pressure and balance to the conflict. oh and of course the fact that palestinians are reproducing at almost double the birth rate of israel. inside israel, arab women have an average of 4 children, whereas jewish women have an average of 2.6 children.

the world will not be able to stay idle for that much longer and you will see an end just like we did with apartheid south africa.

[KrustyKidd]

violence between the two has been happening for a long time and many civilians have been killed as a result. the numbers are very disproportionate. almost as disproportionate as the 3 israeli civilians killed vs more than 900 palestinians civilians killed recently.

If one were looking at this from a purely objective standpoint the numbers would mean nothing. Is a person any more innocent because they only stole a hundred dollars vs a million?

Edited July 21, 2009 by KrustyKidd

[dub]

If one were looking at this from a purely objective standpoint the numbers would mean nothing. Is a person any more innocent because they only stole a hundred dollars vs a million?

eh?

you mean mexicans should get as much recognition as the jews for what they had to go through during world war 2?

Edited July 21, 2009 by dub

[KrustyKidd]

violence between the two has been happening for a long time and many civilians have been killed as a result. the numbers are very disproportionate. almost as disproportionate as the 3 israeli civilians killed vs more than 900 palestinians civilians killed recently.

If one were looking at this from a purely objective standpoint the numbers would mean nothing. Is a person any more innocent because they only stole a hundred dollars vs a million?

i believe israel is going to finally come to terms that greater israel will not happen and the palestinians will have their own legitimate state.

`

There you go with your idiotic conspiracy theories Dub. Israel has engineered every war in order to expel Palestinians to have a large chunk of land but screwed up royally by giving Jordan and Egypt back some of it as well as sending in ten thousand soldiers to gaza but only managing to kill 900 women and children.

due to technology, the world has become way too small and there is only so much information from the region that can be ignored. this problem for israel is already apparent, where an israeli human rights organizations has started giving palestinians camcorders to record the abuse they go through by the hands of the IDF and the settlers.

I'd like to see a bit more free news coming out of Gaza pertaining to Hamas and militent Palestinians before I'd say the fat lady has sung Dub. Wouldn't you?

there is also the emergence of some of the arab countries, especially in the gulf, whose economic power will bring some political pressure and balance to the conflict. oh and of course the fact that palestinians are reproducing at almost double the birth rate of israel. inside israel, arab women have an average of 4 children, whereas jewish women have an average of 2.6 children.

Explain this economic theory of yours please.

the world will not be able to stay idle for that much longer and you will see an end just like we did with apartheid south africa.

How is this end supposed to happen?

[KrustyKidd]

eh?

you mean mexicans should get as much recognition as the jews for what they had to go through during world war 2?

Holy! No Dub, I'm saying that Palestinians die and Israelis die. Not Chinese, Russians, Scientists in Antarctica but Palestinians and Israelis. Whatever the numbers are make them both equally victimized or guilty.

Oh, no Martians or Jovians either.

[dub]

If one were looking at this from a purely objective standpoint the numbers would mean nothing. Is a person any more innocent because they only stole a hundred dollars vs a million?

you mean mexicans should get as much recognition as the jews for what they had to go through during world war 2?

There you go with your idiotic conspiracy theories Dub. Israel has engineered every war in order to expel Palestinians to have a large chunk of land but screwed up royally by giving Jordan and Egypt back some of it as well as sending in ten thousand soldiers to gaza but only managing to kill 900 women and children.

is it a conspiracy theory to repeat what ben gurion has said?

I'd like to see a bit more free news coming out of Gaza pertaining to Hamas and militent Palestinians before I'd say the fat lady has sung Dub. Wouldn't you?

i would love to see that!

i also would love to see less censoring from israel on their coverage of their attacks.

Explain this economic theory of yours please.

talk to a high schooler, i'm sure they'll explain it to you.

How is this end supposed to happen?

by israel finally agreeing to follow international law. or at least most of it.

[KrustyKidd]

you mean mexicans should get as much recognition as the jews for what they had to go through during world war 2?

Holy! No Dub, I'm saying that Palestinians die and Israelis die. Not Chinese, Russians, Scientists in Antarctica but Palestinians and Israelis. Whatever the numbers are make them both equally victimized or guilty.

Oh, no Martians or Jovians either.

is it a conspiracy theory to repeat what ben gurion has said?

He's a dead guy who was PM fifty years ago and ultimately signed and agreed to partition and a Palestinian state along the 48 borders. Try something more recent unless of course, you wish me to quote the Mufti continually in the face of any and all critisism of Israel from you and your koolective news snippets?

i also would love to see less censoring from israel on their coverage of their attacks.

Then you must embrace Col Kemp's speech as he also believes that to show everybody the bullshit that Hamas pulls to spoon feed left wing Jew haters.

First, we must allow, encourage and facilitate the media to have every opportunity to report fairly and positively on us and on our activities. This requires positive and proactive, not defensive and reactive, engagement with the media. We should bring the media into our training, let them get to know our units before battle, bring them in whenever possible during combat.

Perhaps embed them into combat units as the British forces often do, sometimes for protracted periods, in Iraq and Afghanistan. Let them see our soldiers doing their job in as complete a way as we can.

There are risks in all this, big risks which are self evident and do not need to be spelt out. But we must be brave enough to take those risks.

The benefits are great. The insurgents - Hamas in particular - put a human face on war with spectacular success. We must do the same. We must let the field soldiers speak with sand on their boots and with a sweat and dirt-covered human face.

Second, we must show the media in a way they cannot misunderstand the abuses perpetrated by the enemy. Our own units must identify such enemy abuses, and make statements about them, backed up by the hardest available evidence.

talk to a high schooler, i'm sure they'll explain it to you.

I did and they all said that you always play with yourself when you try to engage them in a hate Israel talk. Eeeeeew!

by israel finally agreeing to follow international law. or at least most of it.

I agree. And I'm sure they will also agree when there is a dependable entity in Palestine who guarantees the same.

[DogOnPorch]

Then you must embrace Col Kemp's speech as he also believes that to show everybody the bullshit that Hamas pulls to spoon feed left wing Jew haters.

That was a good article, Krusty.

http://www.jcpa.org/JCPA/Templates/ShowPag...=0&IID=3026

[KrustyKidd]

That was a good article, Krusty.

http://www.jcpa.org/JCPA/Templates/ShowPag...=0&IID=3026

It explains a lot. Hamas cannot hope to make any headway using force however, they can move mountains with public opinion thus, every move they make is designed to illicit a reaction from Israel which they are prepared to distort for the media to gain propaganda. Everything from starving their own to purposly using homes and public buildings as military fortifications.

[dub]

It explains a lot. Hamas cannot hope to make any headway using force however, they can move mountains with public opinion thus, every move they make is designed to illicit a reaction from Israel which they are prepared to distort for the media to gain propaganda. Everything from starving their own to purposly using homes and public buildings as military fortifications.

lols

what you say is kind of funny because it's just so conflicting with the reality of the situation

but then it's kind of sad because it's possible that you might actually believe it

[KrustyKidd]

lols

what you say is kind of funny because it's just so conflicting with the reality of the situation

but then it's kind of sad because it's possible that you might actually believe it

Read Kemp's speech?

[dub]

Holy! No Dub, I'm saying that Palestinians die and Israelis die. Not Chinese, Russians, Scientists in Antarctica but Palestinians and Israelis. Whatever the numbers are make them both equally victimized or guilty.

yes. they both die, but when you have over 900 civilians dying as compared to 3 civilians, there is something disproportionate happening.

were mexicans as much of victims as the jews in world war 2?

He's a dead guy who was PM fifty years ago and ultimately signed and agreed to partition and a Palestinian state along the 48 borders. Try something more recent unless of course, you wish me to quote the Mufti continually in the face of any and all critisism of Israel from you and your koolective news snippets?

something more recent? okay. how about the occupation and the settlements and their expansions? or is that not an indication that israel is not ready to let go of their dream of having control over all the land? i'm sure that's all a conspiracy theory as well and the settlements are not really happening.

damn those jew hating lefties!

Then you must embrace Col Kemp's speech as he also believes that to show everybody the bullshit that Hamas pulls to spoon feed left wing Jew haters.

yes. i'm sure 'the left wing jew haters' would have thought twice about the tall tales of israel committing war crimes if israel had allowed coverage of their attack on gaza. kemp, and of course you, are both brilliant.

I did and they all said that you always play with yourself when you try to engage them in a hate Israel talk. Eeeeeew!

okay then.

I agree. And I'm sure they will also agree when there is a dependable entity in Palestine who guarantees the same.

in the meantime, while they wait to approve of this 'dependable' entity, they'll just continue with the increasing of the settlements in the west bank and jerusalem. because, you know, it's all for self defense and, you know, they're bored and have nothing better to do and have to wait to have a dependable entity to work with towards peace with.

[KrustyKidd]

yes. they both die, but when you have over 900 civilians dying as compared to 3 civilians, there is something disproportionate happening.

Better weapons and tacticts used to prevent the other side from killing more. Still does not take away from the fact that the side with more casualties should not be using terrorism as a policy.

were mexicans as much of victims as the jews in world war 2?

No. There was no political movement or logistical infrastructure set up and maintained to destroy very last one of them.

something more recent? okay. how about the occupation and the settlements and their expansions? or is that not an indication that israel is not ready to let go of their dream of having control over all the land? i'm sure that's all a conspiracy theory as well and the settlements are not really happening.

damn those jew hating lefties!

It's greed on the part of individuals who in turn pressure elements within the government for concessions. Not state policy.

yes. i'm sure 'the left wing jew haters' would have thought twice about the tall tales of israel committing war crimes if israel had allowed coverage of their attack on gaza. kemp, and of course you, are both brilliant.

Well he is an advocate for media imbedded with the troops. He is also an intelligence, terrorism and military expert and you, nor AI, Red Cross are not.

okay then.

in the meantime, while they wait to approve of this 'dependable' entity, they'll just continue with the increasing of the settlements in the west bank and jerusalem. because, you know, it's all for self defense and, you know, they're bored and have nothing better to do and have to wait to have a dependable entity to work with towards peace with.

I don't think for a second that it is for self defense. It is people getting rich off the Palestinian inability to form a peace desiring stable government. Pure and simple.

[dub]

Better weapons and tacticts used to prevent the other side from killing more. Still does not take away from the fact that the side with more casualties should not be using terrorism as a policy.

better tactics = killing more civilians? weird.

i guess by saying that killing more civilians prevents the other side from killing more, you are equating the palestinian civilians to terrorists?

interesting point of view.

No. There was no political movement or logistical infrastructure set up and maintained to destroy very last one of them.

how about the gays? were they as much victims as the jews in world war 2?

It's greed on the part of individuals who in turn pressure elements within the government for concessions. Not state policy.

right. not a 'state policy'. it's all happening on its own and sharon is not called "the father of settlements"?

what about the current PM, mr. bibi and his "none state policy settlement activities"?

Well he is an advocate for media imbedded with the troops. He is also an intelligence, terrorism and military expert and you, nor AI, Red Cross are not.

okay? this proves that israel did not commit war crimes?

I don't think for a second that it is for self defense. It is people getting rich off the Palestinian inability to form a peace desiring stable government. Pure and simple.

okay. all these israeli PM's and politicians have been getting rich off of the settlements.

[Bonam]

how about the gays? were they as much victims as the jews in world war 2?

Any group that was systematically targeted by the Nazis for extermination in WWII were victims of Germany. The Roma people are another example of such a group. However, what does any of this have to do with this thread?

Edited July 21, 2009 by Bonam

[KrustyKidd]

better tactics = killing more civilians? weird.

Means less effective weapons and tactics kill less people. Does not mean that the desire to kill more is not there hence, Hamas, while unable to kill more Israelis would certainly like to.

i guess by saying that killing more civilians prevents the other side from killing more, you are equating the palestinian civilians to terrorists?

interesting point of view.

I think you guessed wrong. What I said was that numbers do not reflect guilt or innocence as Israel can better attack and defend so naturally there will be more Palestinian deaths in any conflict.

how about the gays? were they as much victims as the jews in world war 2?

If the Nazi Party made the eradication of Gays a party and public platform as they did anti Jewry then certainly.

right. not a 'state policy'. it's all happening on its own and sharon is not called "the father of settlements"?

what about the current PM, mr. bibi and his "none state policy settlement activities"?

Still not official policy. It is a movement that can be changed should another party get ini power.

okay? this proves that israel did not commit war crimes?

No. It proves that Hamas stages attacks purposefully to win a propaganda victory as they utilize and manipulate the hand wringing media and your pencil pushing human rights orgs.

okay. all these israeli PM's and politicians have been getting rich off of the settlements.

Yep and they easily justify it when Hamas fires rockets or conducts suicide bombings and such. It's easy to get the consensus when there is no inclination to believe Palestinians will ever move towards a peaceful solution.

[dub]

Means less effective weapons and tactics kill less people. Does not mean that the desire to kill more is not there hence, Hamas, while unable to kill more Israelis would certainly like to.

desire to kill civilians and not giving a shit about civilians dying brings the same result = civilians dying

it just happens that one side killed 3 civilians and the other over 900. it just happens that the way these people were killed by both sides were well-documented and investigated and both sides were found to have committed war crimes. it just happens that the extent of one side's war crimes was a lot higher.

I think you guessed wrong. What I said was that numbers do not reflect guilt or innocence as Israel can better attack and defend so naturally there will be more Palestinian deaths in any conflict.

better attack and defend means that it's okay to kill more civilians and that killing 3 civilians is far worse than the 900 civilians killed?

because if you want to talk about how these people were killed, the 3 civilians killed were killed by illegal rockets that were shot at the civilian population. at the same time, the way many of the 900 civilians killed, were also found to be killed due to illegal actions conducted by the army.

If the Nazi Party made the eradication of Gays a party and public platform as they did anti Jewry then certainly.

so the gays should be getting as much sympathy as the jews? if so, why aren't they? i don't know about you, but it seems like the holocaust is centred around the jewish victims. perhaps due to the sheer number of jews killed. what do you think?

Still not official policy. It is a movement that can be changed should another party get ini power.

lols.

sharon, the father of the settlements, the general, the defense minister, the prime minister...

bibi... the prime minister who has approved and helped expand these illegal settlements...

and krusty is still denying what israeli government's role in the settlements are.

No. It proves that Hamas stages attacks purposefully to win a propaganda victory as they utilize and manipulate the hand wringing media and your pencil pushing human rights orgs.

hamas staged an attack by israel? they staged the destruction in gaza and staged all the deaths? they sure got the media and those human rights organizations!

oh that hamas! they're so good at convincing that israel is committing war crimes!

Yep and they easily justify it when Hamas fires rockets or conducts suicide bombings and such. It's easy to get the consensus when there is no inclination to believe Palestinians will ever move towards a peaceful solution.

right. the whole oslo thing was fake and arafat and the PLO accepting israel's right to exist was all made up.

even hamas' pledge to accept the UN resolution is all made up.

[DogOnPorch]

Israel Backed Against A Wall

Philip McCrackin (AP)

In a move that had been coming for quite some time, the combined forces of the Russia and China tightened their blockade of Israel late yesterday and informed the Israeli government that they had 24 hours to open the border crossings before Chinese carrier planes would bomb open the West Bank Security Barrier. The Israeli government replied that it would comply, however it wanted assurances that the 43,537 IDF soldiers in Hamas hands would be set free unharmed. Hamas officials refused to comment on the prisoners, but said they'd press home their attack on Tel Aviv which has been surrounded and cut off since last Friday.

Hezbollah forces, meanwhile, continued their drive south towards Haifa in the face of lessening Israeli resistance. "Allah has blessed us with a great victory over the Zionist invaders," Hezbollah spokesperson Ahmed Ahduhtie told waiting reporters. "Ever since, they have been running like the dogs they are."

Russian Navy sources report driving back numerous groups of Israelis in small pleasure craft attempting to escape to Cyprus. No shots were fired, but Russian cutters were forced to ram several craft, overturning them.

In other news, Iran detonated its third hydrogen bomb in the upper atmosphere over Sweden today...

Then dub woke up.

Edited July 21, 2009 by DogOnPorch

[Bonam]

so the gays should be getting as much sympathy as the jews? if so, why aren't they? i don't know about you, but it seems like the holocaust is centred around the jewish victims. perhaps due to the sheer number of jews killed. what do you think?

Well, for one, despite Nazi policies against gays, homosexuality remained taboo and continued to be discriminated against in many western countries after WWII. That would have certainly inhibited gay activists from publicizing as much about the suffering they endured. By now, when homosexuality is becoming more accepted, relatively few are still alive who suffered through Nazi times, and gay activists are generally more focused on more recent abuses, by governments, organizations, and people that still exist.

Certainly the amount of Jews that was killed in the Holocaust was greater than any other groups, and many Jewish organizations have since sprung up to preserve the memory of what happened so that they can guard against such a thing ever happening again. The shear number of victims, and the activism of such organizations, does indeed contribute to the fact that the Holocaust is generally associated specifically with the persecution of Jews by the Nazis, although many other groups were also targeted.

However, the information on Nazi crimes against other groups certainly also exists, and their intent in exterminating other groups besides Jews was no less sinister, even though they only got their hands on a smaller number of individuals from those groups.

[KrustyKidd]

it just happens that the extent of one side's war crimes was a lot higher.

Yes, while israel was tryijg to minimize death, Hamas was not only trying to maximize Israeli deaths but even deliberately took action that was sure to endanger their own people. Hamas is not only criminals to Israel but to their own people.

[KrustyKidd]

so the gays should be getting as much sympathy as the jews? if so, why aren't they? i don't know about you, but it seems like the holocaust is centred around the jewish victims. perhaps due to the sheer number of jews killed. what do you think?

Read my post above Dub. Golly, sometimes I wonder. Did I not give the criteria where they should have as much sypathy? Do they fit gays? If so then my answer is yes. If not then no.

And, it has nothing to do with numbers.

sharon, the father of the settlements, the general, the defense minister, the prime minister...

bibi... the prime minister who has approved and helped expand these illegal settlements...

and krusty is still denying what israeli government's role in the settlements are.

Where have I denied it? Once again your reading impediment comes into question. I said it was not official policy.

hamas staged an attack by israel? they staged the destruction in gaza and staged all the deaths? they sure got the media and those human rights organizations!

oh that hamas! they're so good at convincing that israel is committing war crimes!

Dub, now you are just twisitng words. Nowhere did I say that Hamas pretended to be Israeli troops. Hamas has absolutely nothing to gain by sending rockets into israel yet they do it. Do you think they are stupid when they do it and then have the entire population of Gaza standing there with video cameras shooting at nothing? They send rockets in order to garner a reaction which will then be filmed to show the world how evil the Israelis are for attacking them.

right. the whole oslo thing was fake and arafat and the PLO accepting israel's right to exist was all made up.

even hamas' pledge to accept the UN resolution is all made up.

Dub, at times, certaiin factions of Palestinians have made peace treaties and overtures. While encouraging, the other factions who do not agree break them. As i have stated over and over again here, I specify that a unified Palestinian entity which has proven itself to be able to speak for the entire population must make this peace. Neither of the two examples above could or can do that.