International bridge shut down

Smallc · June 1, 2009

Some elements want one thing above all...confrontation. We've seen this movie before.

Unfortunately, I think you're right....because of the circumstances though, this time might be different. I don't know if this will or can be allowed to go on as long as other disputes.

bush_cheney2004 · June 1, 2009

Unfortunately, I think you're right....because of the circumstances though, this time might be different. I don't know if this will or can be allowed to go on as long as other disputes.

Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! That's why they did it!

charter.rights · June 1, 2009

To be fair, it's only a small group of Natives who are engaged in this protest. Most people on the reserve just want to get on with their lives. But as we see, that small group can cause a lot of headaches for all who are affected by the closure of the bridge, including hindering the free flow of their own co-residents.
Well, they got their way with this major disruption of a busy international border. The feds closed the bridge and will not re-open it until the community, including the Mohawks, accept armed border guards.

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/Eastern+bor...9395/story.html

Canada is a laughing stock. All this talk about counter terrorism measures on a grand scale, and we can't even settle grievances from a few domestic radicals.

To be fair....you don't know what you are talking about.

There were 400 residents of Cornwall Island that gathered at the Border Station last night. And they were supported by the Chief and Mohawk Council of Akwesasne, The St. Regis Tribal Council and the entire community. Chief Tim Thompson has been petitioning the government for 1 year to negotiate over the proposal to arm the Border Guards at Akwesasne. They have enacted a law with the consent of the community banning guns at the border station and have largely been ignored. They have a right to deny the Canadian Government access to their sovereign territory.

They did not block the bridge, nor are the people of Akwesanse responsible for the closure of the international crossing. That was entirely the decision of the Canadian Border agents to abandon their posts and the Cornwall police's decision to block access to the Cornwall side of the bridge. However, as of this afternoon the bridge will now be opened to Akwesasne residents and they will be able to cross the international bridge to the other side of their territory without interruption.

At the end of the day I am confident that there will be no guns at this border crossing on Mohawk territory. The government better be prepared to move the border station into Cornwall if they want their guards armed.

Topaz · June 1, 2009

My question is IF the border guards were armed, why did they run away from the Mohawks? What if it were outside of the country terrorists, would they run??? I hear don the news that the Mohawks say that some of the guards, have hadaruements with some of the First Nations and the FN, say if they get angry enought towards an individual, they could end up killing someone, whjile losing thier anger.

capricorn · June 1, 2009

To be fair....you don't know what you are talking about.
There were 400 residents of Cornwall Island that gathered at the Border Station last night. And they were supported by the Chief and Mohawk Council of Akwesasne, The St. Regis Tribal Council and the entire community. Chief Tim Thompson has been petitioning the government for 1 year to negotiate over the proposal to arm the Border Guards at Akwesasne. They have enacted a law with the consent of the community banning guns at the border station and have largely been ignored. They have a right to deny the Canadian Government access to their sovereign territory.

They did not block the bridge, nor are the people of Akwesanse responsible for the closure of the international crossing. That was entirely the decision of the Canadian Border agents to abandon their posts and the Cornwall police's decision to block access to the Cornwall side of the bridge. However, as of this afternoon the bridge will now be opened to Akwesasne residents and they will be able to cross the international bridge to the other side of their territory without interruption.

What you raise are points already covered in the links I provided.

At the end of the day I am confident that there will be no guns at this border crossing on Mohawk territory.

Wrong. US border guards and local Native police would continue to be armed.

I am confident of one thing. Arming Canadian border guards would make it just more difficult for smugglers to carry out their illegal activities. The criminal element has a vested interest in keeping our border guards unarmed and defenseless.

"The American customs post has been heavily armed for years," says Thompson. "The American post is right in the middle of the (reservation), and they all wear sidearms. What's more, you go into the office, and there's a rack of automatic rifles sitting there behind the front counter."
Why don't militants at Akwesasne threaten confrontations with the Americans?

"Because the Americans will shoot back," says Thompson.

---

But Thompson said Canada must stop its weak-kneed policies on the Akwesasne reserve, a known centre for the smuggling of cigarettes and other contraband. He says Mohawk smugglers there have depended on the unarmed, under-resourced Canadian border post, in order to carry out their operations without heavy scrutiny on the Canadian side of the St. Lawrence River.

"They don't just depend on it, they bank on it," he says. "It doesn't say much about Canadian sovereignty."

http://www.canada.com/news/national/Time+t...9395/story.html

charter.rights · June 1, 2009

My question is IF the border guards were armed, why did they run away from the Mohawks? What if it were outside of the country terrorists, would they run??? I hear don the news that the Mohawks say that some of the guards, have hadaruements with some of the First Nations and the FN, say if they get angry enought towards an individual, they could end up killing someone, whjile losing thier anger.

A number of Border Guards had deliberately targeted Mohawk people and delayed, harassed, beaten and threatened them. Mohawks had a unfettered right to cross the border any time they want and do not have to stop for the guards. Yet the Guards have made a point to delaying Mohawk people.

This really isn't a protest. It is an eviction of the Canadian Border Agency from their territory. The Border station is only there with the agreement of the Mohawks of Akwesasne. If they want guns, then they will have to move off the territory.

Of course for the Mohawks, traveling to and from the US or to other parts of Ontario isn't a problem, since CN, CP railways, the 401, the St. Lawrence Seaway, Lake Ontario etc. are all on their territory and most run right through Mohawk communities. MP Van Loan might want to reconsider what may happen if he thinks he can force the Mohawks of Akwesasne to accept border guards with guns. It seems that the we have our entire Ontario transportation network exposed to Mohawk action...if the choose. And they are organized enough from what we have seen in the past to totaly disrupt the traffic and economy in Ontario and Quebec for some time....

Topaz · June 1, 2009

A number of Border Guards had deliberately targeted Mohawk people and delayed, harassed, beaten and threatened them. Mohawks had a unfettered right to cross the border any time they want and do not have to stop for the guards. Yet the Guards have made a point to delaying Mohawk people.
This really isn't a protest. It is an eviction of the Canadian Border Agency from their territory. The Border station is only there with the agreement of the Mohawks of Akwesasne. If they want guns, then they will have to move off the territory.

Of course for the Mohawks, traveling to and from the US or to other parts of Ontario isn't a problem, since CN, CP railways, the 401, the St. Lawrence Seaway, Lake Ontario etc. are all on their territory and most run right through Mohawk communities. MP Van Loan might want to reconsider what may happen if he thinks he can force the Mohawks of Akwesasne to accept border guards with guns. It seems that the we have our entire Ontario transportation network exposed to Mohawk action...if the choose. And they are organized enough from what we have seen in the past to totaly disrupt the traffic and economy in Ontario and Quebec for some time....

I can see the Mohawks side , just read the views on here and you know a lot of people don't care for the FN for their own stupid reasons.BUT, Loan said there is going to be armed guards there no matter what. I hope Tories try harder to talk this through and not like Harris did!

Smallc · June 1, 2009

A law was passe by the government of Canada...this is Canadian soil. If the FN wishes to declare sovereignty, then all of Canada's obligations to them evaporate.

bush_cheney2004 · June 1, 2009

A law was passe by the government of Canada...this is Canadian soil. If the FN wishes to declare sovereignty, then all of Canada's obligations to them evaporate.

Not so fast...you forgot about the Queen. When it comes to treaties, Canada cannot unilaterally dismiss.

Smallc · June 1, 2009

Not so fast...you forgot about the Queen. When it comes to treaties, Canada cannot unilaterally dismiss.

Canada would not be...they would be. The Queen is the head of Canada, btw....so I'm not sure what you're saying.

Machjo · June 2, 2009

Cut off the welfare cheques and see how fast they change their minds. Simple. If they get our money, they get our terms. They don't want our terms? Find their own cash.

There's a flaw in that logic.

I'm a fisherman and you build a factory upstream from me, polliting the river and killing my livelyhood. I become dependent on you, and then you insist I must live up to your terms.

Can you see the injustice in that?

Machjo · June 2, 2009

No kidding.....this is the oft repeated excuse. Why so much foot dragging from the feds and province?

I remember in BC some of the landclaims cover mucho land. Major economic and policial implications. Problem is, often the claims are legally legitimate.

To take an example, imagine I take the government to court, and essentially I'm in the right. But if the court should uphold it, it could cause major economic and policial upheaval.

Naturally the court will consider that and will be afraid to carry though with it.

Machjo · June 2, 2009

What's 'so fricking hard' is the AMOUNT to pay up! Some aboriginal bands have made demands that are up in the stratosphere and would bankrupt Canada for generations.
A few years ago I saw a study that totalled all the land claims in British Columbia. It exceeded the actual area of all the land in British Columbia!

Then we have problems like in Caledonia, where the natives argued amongst themselves as to who actually represented them and had the right to conduct the negotiations.

I'm not at all saying that the federal government has not been terribly remiss. I'm just saying its not as easy in all cases as you implied. There's a politically correct but totally illogical premise going around that natives are always right and non-natives are always wrong.

Speak of the devil. Had I read further I would have saved myself a post above.

Though I agree with the last statement in part, it's not always true. In some cases, especially in Eastern Canada, they are in fact international treaties between the British and the Indians, predating the British North America Act, and that causes alot of confusion too. Still legal documents, and thus still legitimate claims to be honoured legally. But who's really in charge? The British? Canada as its replacement on this soil? And what about the Indians? It was an international agreement, but later we took their land by force. So how do we interpret that legally? It just causes a mess in legal interpretation.

Machjo · June 2, 2009

If you want to know what I really think....i think that reserves should be divded up equally among aboriginals and they should not be reserves any more. Natives should cease being wards of the state, and they should have all of the same rights and responsibilities as everyone else. The Indian Act should be abolished.
That's not to say that natives should cease forget who they are and the culture that they have, I simply think that there are too many differences that still exist and these differences create annimosity on both sides.

But how do we then deal with our international treaties with them?

Of course one legal solution is to eliminate the 'us' vs. them issue by making 'us' them, and thus them us. This would essentially mean gradually adopting ever more native culture to replace the forign ones currently running our institutions.

Machjo · June 2, 2009

Because the border guards have harassed and injured Mohawks that have been passing through the station. According to the Jay Treaty Mohawks are afforded free passage without harassment or interference between Canada and the US. As well the Akwesasne - St. Regis Reserve exists on either side of the Ontario -US and Quebec - US border. People from Akwesasne must pass the border station on their own territory just to visit relatives or do business on their own territory.
Late last year the Canadian Border guards stopped and violently detained two elderly grandmothers. They yanked them from their car and shoved them into the ground for no reason, putting both of them in the hospital. They had no right to stop and detain the Mohawk grandmothers. These kinds of events are escalating and it is fear that when they have guns in their hands the Border guards will use them. There are many racist border guards that man that station and so the Chief and Council of Akwesasne do not want them armed and have passed a law prohibiting them from carrying guns. The Mohawk police are the law enforcement agency at Akwesasne.

The federal government has the choiuce of either disarming the border guards at this station, or moving the Border station off of the Mohawk Territory into Cornwall. Either way they cannot stop Mohawks from travelling to the US side or back again on their own land.

I could imagine I'd be mighty pissed too to have a foreign national boundary cutting right through my national territory.

Smallc · June 2, 2009

Of course one legal solution is to eliminate the 'us' vs. them issue by making 'us' them, and thus them us. This would essentially mean gradually adopting ever more native culture to replace the foreign ones currently running our institutions.

No, it wouldn't. It would mean that they would become normal citizens. They're traditions, institutions, and culture already play a part in Canadian soceity. I think that it would work out better for everyone.

Griz · June 2, 2009

There's a flaw in that logic.
I'm a fisherman and you build a factory upstream from me, polliting the river and killing my livelyhood. I become dependent on you, and then you insist I must live up to your terms.

Can you see the injustice in that?

Good one Machjo! I tell you, these dim-wits are like a stubborn forest fire! You stomp one out and another one flares up--this ones name is geoffrey. They never ever realize that it was their ancestors who squatted on the land so that they can have cash with the resources. Had it not been for the land, flared-up, big yaps would be in Europe on welfare and not have access to the rich resources of Canada. Geoffrey, if you don't like it, may I suggest a one-way ticket back to where you originated from

Argus · June 2, 2009

It is Canadians and Americans who are smuggling guns, drugs and firearms across the border to feed places like Toronto.

Yes, they're called the Mohawk Warriors. As far as I'm concerned they, like the Hells Angels, ought to be declared illegal organizations, and every member locked up.

If Canadians come to the reserve to purchase smokes and you think it is against the law then perhaps you should start arresting Canadians as they leave the reserve.

I'm in favour of that, and of seizing their cars.

Argus · June 2, 2009

I could imagine I'd be mighty pissed too to have a foreign national boundary cutting right through my national territory.

They can talk about being a sovereign nation when they don't need my tax money to feed, clothe and house themselves.

Machjo · June 2, 2009

They can talk about being a sovereign nation when they don't need my tax money to feed, clothe and house themselves.

There's a flaw in that logic.

I'm a fisherman and you build a factory upstream from me, polliting the river and killing my livelyhood. I become dependent on you, and then you insist I must live up to your terms.

Can you see the injustice in that?

By the way, are you sure they're on welfare?

I've met aboriginal entrepreneurs myself. nice stereotyping there.

Machjo · June 2, 2009

They can talk about being a sovereign nation when they don't need my tax money to feed, clothe and house themselves.

So when are you planning to give them their land back and go back to the UK? You won't have to pay them a cent from there.

Argus · June 2, 2009

Of course for the Mohawks, traveling to and from the US or to other parts of Ontario isn't a problem, since CN, CP railways, the 401, the St. Lawrence Seaway, Lake Ontario etc. are all on their territory and most run right through Mohawk communities. MP Van Loan might want to reconsider what may happen if he thinks he can force the Mohawks of Akwesasne to accept border guards with guns. It seems that the we have our entire Ontario transportation network exposed to Mohawk action...if the choose. And they are organized enough from what we have seen in the past to totaly disrupt the traffic and economy in Ontario and Quebec for some time....

I think we've given in to these thuggish sorts of threats far too often in the last twenty years. They help perpetuate a criminal culture on the border reserves, where a few criminal leaders get rich, and everyone else lives in poverty and fear. The only reason why we allow it is fear of being seen as abusing "the poor red man" but I think natives deserve the same protection as other Canadians, and that means holding up the same law and order for them as for anyone else. If there are criminals on the reserves they need to be dealt with, just like criminals anywhere else. That means putting in as many police as are required to bring law and order to the reserves, and arresting anyone who gets in their way.

Argus · June 2, 2009

So when are you planning to give them their land back and go back to the UK? You won't have to pay them a cent from there.

That's a laughably cliche'd suggestion. It's not their land because we took if from them. Now it's ours.

And you know, a major holdup in the lands claim negations is always that multiple native bands claim the same land, because they were fighting over it for generations before the Europeans arrived. The land then, as it does now, went to whoever was strong enough to take and hold it.

Machjo · June 2, 2009

Why not ask them if they'd like to become independent like Monaco or San marino, an independent city state?

If they want it, I'd be prepared to give it to them.

charter.rights · June 2, 2009

A law was passe by the government of Canada...this is Canadian soil. If the FN wishes to declare sovereignty, then all of Canada's obligations to them evaporate.

No it is not "Canadian soil" It is sovereign Mohawk Territory and existed long before Canada was even thought of. The Mohawks have never treatied for land, surrendered their sovereignty, never been conquered or nor have they ever capitulated. You should brush up on your history before you continue spreading myths.