Ignatieff calls bilingualism the essence of Canada

CANADIEN · May 30, 2009

So that's a NO.

So that's a "I don't write a list of garbage dump so I can quote their names 10 years later".

The problem I have with that is that most of the people I know and work with are French. Most are from Quebec. None has EVER mentioned experiencing any such thing in their innumerable trips into Ottawa. Nor have I ever read anything in the media about Quebec plated cars being pulled over unfairly by Ontario cops. I have read the opposite, however, and the stories among Anglos here are too numerous to list.

The problem is that the only thing you accept as truth are those that feed your hostility towards equall rights for French-speaking Canadians.

Argus · May 30, 2009

So that's a "I don't write a list of garbage dump so I can quote their names 10 years later".
The problem is that the only thing you accept as truth are those that feed your hostility towards equall rights for French-speaking Canadians.

You have no desire for equal rights. Your every posting oozes with a smug sense of entitlement to preferential treatment and services, including your wholehearted support for the dominance of French throughout government, and the requirement that all leadership positions be given solely based on the French language skills of applicants.

Leafless · May 30, 2009

Yu hate Quebcers, I know.

I don't hate Quebecers.

But I do know Quebecers hate White, English speaking Canadians and is proven by their separatist ideologies.

They recognize that the White English speaking culture is a different culture and have developed their culture with civil liberities that are avaiable to all Canadians.

They hate us on that level because due to the nature of their dying language cannot compete with the English language and rather than assimilate choose to threaten separation because of it.

But I do hate corrupt politics and politicians forcing English speaking Canadians to bow to the cultural ideologies of sore losers resulting in the oppression and discrimination of White English speaking Canadians.

Canada's official multicultural policy creates another level of oppression and discrimination against White, English speaking Canadians.

You do realise,don't you, that even you belong to an ethnic group whether you're aware of it or not?

I do know and have already indicated that in a previous post.

But it is not I who is leader of the oppositon party running making racist statements and saying "calling the ability to speak both official languages is the essence of being Canadian" when Ignatieff knows full well it is Francophones who are the majority that make up the tiny 17% of Canadians who are bilingual who speak both official languages of Canada.

CANADIEN · May 30, 2009

You have no desire for equal rights. Your every posting oozes with a smug sense of entitlement to preferential treatment and services, including your wholehearted support for the dominance of French throughout government, and the requirement that all leadership positions be given solely based on the French language skills of applicants.

Less we forget...

Federal government services in both our national languages , and access to education in either of thse two languages is preferential treatment for those who speak one of them.... Strike one.

Equal status for French and English equates dominence of French... Strike two,

The requirement that a number of positions be held by people who can speak and write French AND[/b] English is in fact a requirement that they can speal French, and who cares about English. Strike three.

A great career awaits you at Yuk!Yuk!

Jerry J. Fortin · May 30, 2009

Equality is the name of the game. Fair and equal treatment for all.

Argus · May 30, 2009

Less we forget...
Federal government services in both our national languages , and access to education in either of thse two languages is preferential treatment for those who speak one of them.... Strike one.

Equal status for French and English equates dominence of French... Strike two,

The fact of the matter is, and statistics bear this out if anyone is stupid enough to try and argue, that most bilinguals are Francophones. This is not because they try harder, or put more effort into it. It's simply because English, as compared to French, is far more attractive to learn, for it opens many doors as compared to French. In addition, it's a far simpler language to learn as compared to French. Added onto that, is the cultural factor which makes the minority far more likely to learn the majority's language than is the reverse. A French kid experiences English in the form of the massive English (mostly American) culture, and doesn't want to be left out of it, so learns English as he grows up. There is no such cultural factor causing young English kids to learn French.

That is why, when you require bilingualism in a position, you are, in all likelihood, going to have that position filled by a Francophone - usually a Quebecer. In fact, even if the position is filled by an Anglo, the odds are it's an Anglo from Quebec. Because there, the cultural factor works, to some extent, in the favour of the Quebec Anglos.

In either event, the fact remains that requiring a high degree of bilingualism throughout the upper ranks of the federal government is going to to, and has caused a vastly disproportionate amount of those leadership positions to be held by Quebecers. This is not coincidental. It was known from the start that this would be the case, and was pushed, in large measure because of that, by Quebec ministers and prime ministers.

None of this is related to providing French language services to people who call in wanting to get service with something. It's entirely political, bought about by language chauvenists like you who don't care about any qualification for a position other than French language ability.

CANADIEN · May 30, 2009

Two years ago, the small Quebec village of Hérouxville made news with a "Code of conduct" for immigrants. Inspired by this, let me propose a code of conduct for me and other "Frenchmen" who are passing through provinces other than Quebec. In no particular order:

1. There is one Canadian language, English. There is one true Canadian culture, and it is English (and includes American idol, Britney Spears, etc., etc.)

2. If someone says you're French, don't take it as meaning you are not Canadian, even when that's the exact meaning of the person saying it.

3. Your country is Canada. Unless you want equal status for English and French, in which case your country is Quebec only.

4. You're from Quebec. Your ancestors may have been deported with the other Acadians, or you may own a eight-geneation farm not too far from Windsor, but you are still from Quebec.

5. You can use your language any time and anywhere. But anyone who has a problem with it is entireloy justified in letting you know in as rude and threatening fashion as they want to.

6. You shall receive equal access to government services. In English. Except in the cases where someeee of us decide that a favour should be done to you.

7. Your taxes can be used to found French schools, as long as you pay extra.

8. If you seek a job in the federal government, know that in most cases what language(s) yo9u can use is irrelevant, as long as it is English.

9. You have the same rights as any other Canadians, in English.

10. The Charter of Rights is a bad, bad, bad thing.

benny · May 30, 2009

The fact of the matter is, and statistics bear this out if anyone is stupid enough to try and argue, that most bilinguals are Francophones. This is not because they try harder, or put more effort into it. It's simply because English, as compared to French, is far more attractive to learn, for it opens many doors as compared to French. In addition, it's a far simpler language to learn as compared to French. Added onto that, is the cultural factor which makes the minority far more likely to learn the majority's language than is the reverse. A French kid experiences English in the form of the massive English (mostly American) culture, and doesn't want to be left out of it, so learns English as he grows up. There is no such cultural factor causing young English kids to learn French.
That is why, when you require bilingualism in a position, you are, in all likelihood, going to have that position filled by a Francophone - usually a Quebecer. In fact, even if the position is filled by an Anglo, the odds are it's an Anglo from Quebec. Because there, the cultural factor works, to some extent, in the favour of the Quebec Anglos.

In either event, the fact remains that requiring a high degree of bilingualism throughout the upper ranks of the federal government is going to to, and has caused a vastly disproportionate amount of those leadership positions to be held by Quebecers. This is not coincidental. It was known from the start that this would be the case, and was pushed, in large measure because of that, by Quebec ministers and prime ministers.

None of this is related to providing French language services to people who call in wanting to get service with something. It's entirely political, bought about by language chauvenists like you who don't care about any qualification for a position other than French language ability.

The most basic reasoning of all English-speaking Canadians should be: knowing only one language is quite regrettable nowadays, therefore should I learn French or another language?

Edited May 30, 2009 by benny

CANADIEN · May 30, 2009

The fact of the matter is, and statistics bear this out if anyone is stupid enough to try and argue, that most bilinguals are Francophones. This is not because they try harder, or put more effort into it. It's simply because English, as compared to French, is far more attractive to learn, for it opens many doors as compared to French. In addition, it's a far simpler language to learn as compared to French. Added onto that, is the cultural factor which makes the minority far more likely to learn the majority's language than is the reverse. A French kid experiences English in the form of the massive English (mostly American) culture, and doesn't want to be left out of it, so learns English as he grows up. There is no such cultural factor causing young English kids to learn French.
That is why, when you require bilingualism in a position, you are, in all likelihood, going to have that position filled by a Francophone - usually a Quebecer. In fact, even if the position is filled by an Anglo, the odds are it's an Anglo from Quebec. Because there, the cultural factor works, to some extent, in the favour of the Quebec Anglos.

In either event, the fact remains that requiring a high degree of bilingualism throughout the upper ranks of the federal government is going to to, and has caused a vastly disproportionate amount of those leadership positions to be held by Quebecers.

How a language is more pervasive than another, or more easily it is (or is not) to learn, is IRRELEVANT.

So is where in Canada (or anywhere else for that matter), a government employee is from. Unless you can prove me otherwise, the senior positions you are talking about are occupied by CANADIANS. Period.

Of course, I fully expect you to claim that your point is only about how mkany postitions should require English and french and whether it should be at all level. YOUR problem is that I do not buy Florida swampland.

I wonder: what would be the reaction if I said: "if language skills are not important, I suppose there would be no problem with an unilingual francophone rising the ranks to become Deputy Minister".

CANADIEN · May 30, 2009

The most basic reasoning of all English-speaking Canadians should be: knowing only one language is quite regrettable nowadays, therefore should I learn French or another language?

The basic reasoning of any person should be. I'll decide what second language(s) I want to learn, but I won't whine about the doors my choice may close.

Leafless · May 30, 2009

What you fail to mention concerning Montfort is:
A court ruled in 1999 that the hospital cuts violated language rights. In 2001 a higher court upheld the decision and the province abandoned "common-sense" revolutionary Mike Harris plans to close the hospital.

So I guess it is fair to say corrupt language politics interfered with Mike Harris's Ontario Hospital restructioning plan as there are other Ottawa bilingual hospitals to service Francophones.

The other bilingual hospitals were also created by corrupt politics and not by the actions of the residents of the city of Ottawa and are also affiliated with the University of Ottawa. Ottawa's Heart Institute and the Childrens Institute are also affiliated with the University of Ottawa.

English Language rights did not save the Grace hospital from closing nor transforming the previous Riverside hospital into an outpatient hospital.

benny · May 30, 2009

The basic reasoning of any person should be. I'll decide what second language(s) I want to learn, but I won't whine about the doors my choice may close.

In a basic reasoning, one should take into account the consequences.

CANADIEN · May 30, 2009

So I guess it is fair to say corrupt language politics interfered with Mike Harris's Ontario Hospital restructioning plan as there are other Ottawa bilingual hospitals to service Francophones.
The other bilingual hospitals were also created by corrupt politics and not by the actions of the residents of the city of Ottawa and are also affiliated with the University of Ottawa. Ottawa's Heart Institute and the Childrens Institute are also affiliated with the University of Ottawa.

English Language rights did not save the Grace hospital from closing nor transforming the previous Riverside hospital into an outpatient hospital.

The hospitals in ottawa existed BEFORE Mike Harris. :lol: :lol: :lol:

I don't see how the fact that all Ottawa hospitals are affiliated to the one University providing medical training in Ottawa is relevant, but who cares.

As for Grace Hospital: are you arguing that there is no sufficient health services in English in Ottawa?

Now, to what will no doubt surprise you, but not those who know me... If it had been me, the Ottawa Hospital and the Queensway-Carleton hospital would be primarilly English-speaking. The existence of the Montford Hospital is sufficient for most of the health needs of Ottawa's French-language population, and besides the concentration of service there would result in a better service.

Edited May 30, 2009 by CANADIEN

Leafless · May 30, 2009

The most basic reasoning of all English-speaking Canadians should be: knowing only one language is quite regrettable nowadays, therefore should I learn French or another language?

Do you have any clue as to why people bother learn another language?

Generally people learn the language that is the majority language and is the language of commerce of a country.

Canada is not Europe. With Europe being a multitude of smaller COUNTRIES COULD make it beneficial to learn other languages.

This NOT the case in Canada.

CANADIEN · May 30, 2009

Canada is not Europe.

It's Canada. Time you realize it.

Machjo · May 30, 2009

The extremes are equally bad on both sides.
But in terms of recent policies, the North American Neo-Cons (Republicans and modern Conservatives) are more xenophobic than NDP'ers, Liberals and Democrats.

According to that logic, if my neighbour murders someone, then it's OK for me to steal a chocolate bar because it's not as bad as murdering someone?

Whether the right or the left is more xenophobic is irrelevent. A zenophobe is a zenophobe. Let's say in an election you had a choice between a cosmopolitan right-winger who wanted freer immigration, labour-movement between borders, less militarism, more free trade, etc. and a left-winger who wanted to close all borders. Which would you vote for? The left-winger just because he's left? Somewhat biassed don't you think?

To take a more concrete example, let's say it was a vote between the Greens and the NDP? The Green Party in Canada is in fact a relatively right-wing party, yet far more cosmopolitan than the NDP. Same with some members of the Libertarian Party, depending on the specific type of libertarianism of that particular libertarian.

You seem to be biassed in your attempt to suggest that Zenophobia is only marginal in the left and completely permeates the right. We find freedom from zenophobia, and intense zenophobia, on both sides, depending on the person concerned.

benny · May 30, 2009

Now, to what will no doubt surprise you, but not those who know me... If it had been me, the Ottawa Hospital and the Queensway-Carleton hospital would be primarilly English-speaking. The existence of the Montford Hospital is sufficient for most of the health needs of Ottawa's French-language population, and besides the concentration of service there would result in a better service.

To me, for a hospital, being able to say it is a bilingual institution allows an access to a larger pool of personnel.

Machjo · May 30, 2009

You had to go back a quarter century to find a quote from some organization I've never heard of to try and support your point? LOL
You know damned well you could find worse quotes from many present day Quebec artists, writers, intellectuals, union leaders and politicians.

A quarter century is not a long time. Just this morning in fact. In the world of language policy, it can take a generation for the policy to take effect, So in the context of language, policy, that's just this morning.

And the British Council receives most of its funding from the British Government. And if you want something more recent:, how about this statement from the UK PM in 2008:

http://www.britishcouncil.org/new/press-of...ative-20080123/

Linguistic Imperialism at its best. Canada's CIDA is just more subtle about it; you have to look around in book stores abroad to find its involvement in this.

And I'm not denying that we can hear and read the same kinds of comments in French. I'm just saying it's alive and well in English. Look at this too. from 2003 I believe:

http://www.tesolislamia.org/articles/TEML.pdf

and

http://www.basic-english.org/institute.html

All involving the exploitation of English to benefit the English-speaking peoples unfairly on the world stage. And yes, we find the same kind of thing in English, equally reprehensible. I'm ust saying that French-speakers have not monopolized this domain and English speakers are just as involved in it as French-speakers are.

Leafless · May 30, 2009

The hospitals in ottawa existed BEFORE Mike Harris. :lol:

But were amalagated (with the exception of the Montfort) under Mike Harris in order to SAVE money.

I don't see how the fact that all Ottawa hospitals are affiliated to the one University providing medical training in Ottawa is relevant, but who cares.

The University of Ottawa is touted as a bilingual university but is biased in favour of the minority French language.

I see this as a conflict of interest.

As for Grace Hospital: are you arguing that there is no sufficient health services in English in Ottawa?

The city of Ottawa is only 15% French speaking, why shouldn't there be services in the English language.

CANADIEN · May 30, 2009

But were amalagated (with the exception of the Montfort) under Mike Harris in order to SAVE money.

See, you can get facts once in a while.

The University of Ottawa is touted as a bilingual university but is biased in favour of the minority French language.
I see this as a conflict of interest.

Yep, equal status is bias. But well, you got one fact right earlier...

The city of Ottawa is only 15% French speaking, why shouldn't there be services in the English language.

Now, would I say or think there should not be public services in English in Ottawa? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Now, if you think that the closing of the Grace Hospital means that health services in English in Ottawa are insufficient, feel free to show how.

Machjo · May 30, 2009

I don't hate Quebecers.
But I do know Quebecers hate White, English speaking Canadians and is proven by their separatist ideologies.

They recognize that the White English speaking culture is a different culture and have developed their culture with civil liberities that are avaiable to all Canadians.

They hate us on that level because due to the nature of their dying language cannot compete with the English language and rather than assimilate choose to threaten separation because of it.

But I do hate corrupt politics and politicians forcing English speaking Canadians to bow to the cultural ideologies of sore losers resulting in the oppression and discrimination of White English speaking Canadians.

Canada's official multicultural policy creates another level of oppression and discrimination against White, English speaking Canadians.

I do know and have already indicated that in a previous post.

But it is not I who is leader of the oppositon party running making racist statements and saying "calling the ability to speak both official languages is the essence of being Canadian" when Ignatieff knows full well it is Francophones who are the majority that make up the tiny 17% of Canadians who are bilingual who speak both official languages of Canada.

First off, you're totally stereotyping Quebecers and insulting their culture, and then pretend to like them. yeah right.

It really is a shame that you have such an insulting view of us, because I do agree with some of your points on some occasions, yet can't support you because of your motives. Even on the few points we can agree on, we disagree fundamentally on why we support that view.

Generally speaking, I would be more inclined to support someone I disagree with but whom I consider well-intentioned, than someone I agree with but whose motives I question.

My opposition to official bilingualism stems to some degree from a moderately libertarian view of the world. Yours seems to stem out of a belief that all Quebecers hate Engish-speakers, that all Quebecers oppose freedom, and that the very roots of French cultures oppose it. Have you never heard of Descarte, Montesquieux, Rousseau, etc.

Compare that to Carlyle. I actually like many of Carlyle's ideas, though they certainly are critical (in many cases legitimately so in my opinion) of democracy. Should I take Carlyle and stereotype all Englishs-speakers? Or what about that Reformer who'd trampled on a Quebec flag under Manning's leadership?

Sure there's igotry in Quebec, but now you seem to be saying that ALL French_Quebecers are like that.

Leafless · May 30, 2009

It's Canada. Time you realize it.

You go and tell that to Quebec.

It's time you realized your federal government is dysfunctional and corrupt.

Machjo · May 30, 2009

You go and tell that to Quebec.
It's time you realized your federal government is dysfunctional and corrupt.

Not all in Quebec are sovereigntists.

By the way, I'm curious. You complain alot, but what are youre recommendations other than that everyone else should just assimilat to your culture?

CANADIEN · May 30, 2009

You go and tell that to Quebec.

Right now, I am saying it to the guy who would deny me my identity as a Canadian. That would be YOU.

It's time you realized your federal government is dysfunctional and corrupt.

I know there's dysfunction and corrupt behaviour. respect for the rights of Canadians is not a sign of it, on the contrary. Edited May 30, 2009 by CANADIEN

Leafless · May 30, 2009

360']
See, you can get facts once in a while.

This coming from a French propagandist. What a joke.

Yep, equal status is bias. But well, you got one fact right earlier...

Minorities do not control the majority except in Canada.

Ask Quebec.

Now, if you think that the closing of the Grace Hospital means that health services in English in Ottawa are insufficient, feel free to show how.

I don't think that is any of your buisness as it is the majority English speaking tax payers of Ottawa and tax payers of Ontario who should be calling the shots rather than corrupt politicians who think Ottawa hospitals are created and should be run by Utopian idealist.