Michael Ignatieff in Hamilton

[WIP]

Now it's 100%.

If you live in Hamilton, and vote Conservative, you're a fool! And I don't mean that just because Tories have never had any chance of winning inside city limits; I have voted for the Tories over my lifetime also -- the simple fact is that the open trade agreements brought in by Mulroney, and expanded under Chretien, have gutted heavy industry in Southern Ontario! Right now, new unemployment claims in Hamilton have doubled from this time last year, and the shoe still hasn't dropped because employees on furlough at Stelco, and on strike at National Steel Car, will never get back to their old jobs. They will either have to manage on an early retirement, or go to work at Tim Hortons - where half of the people in this city seem to be employed these days!

[capricorn]

The parts of Canada that don't like Liberals are ironically the ones who in recent times did best under them.

You must send that line to Ignatieff. It fits right in with "the Liberals built this country".

We live in such an amazing place, to say that any place has been destroyed by a government is laughable.

I doubt Venezuelans would agree.

[Wild Bill]

If you live in Hamilton, and vote Conservative, you're a fool! And I don't mean that just because Tories have never had any chance of winning inside city limits; I have voted for the Tories over my lifetime also -- the simple fact is that the open trade agreements brought in by Mulroney, and expanded under Chretien, have gutted heavy industry in Southern Ontario! Right now, new unemployment claims in Hamilton have doubled from this time last year, and the shoe still hasn't dropped because employees on furlough at Stelco, and on strike at National Steel Car, will never get back to their old jobs. They will either have to manage on an early retirement, or go to work at Tim Hortons - where half of the people in this city seem to be employed these days!

I live in Stoney Creek, one of those 'conquered' suburbs forced to amalgamate with Hamilton 'cuz it never could handle its own finances. That's the real reason Harris forced us together, despite the fact that it was the suburbs that voted for him and Hamilton would never give him any voter support. The province just didn't want to have to bail Hamilton out!

I've been here since 1960 and all these years I've watched as Hamilton blithely assumed that heavy manufacturing would be here forever and did DIDDLYSQUAT to diversify its economy!

I was a salesman for most of those years with the electronics high tech industry, riding the wave from when the microcomputer chip was first introduced in the late 70's. There were ZERO customers worth paying an outside sales call! I had more accounts in Stratford or Peterborough! Not just the big cities like Toronto, Mississauga or Kitchener/Waterloo had manufacturers buying parts in volume. Even the small towns and boroughs had some respectable industry.

Hamilton had a few guys who fixed cell phones or whatever and needed $5-$10 of parts once in a while!

The world changed and Hamilton ignored it. Finally the bottom fell out and Hamilton is left with little or nothing.

You blame it all on the Conservatives?

Unbelievable!

[Radsickle]

Maybe you just didn't have much luck in Hamilton...

[g_bambino]

The Tory party of old was much more respectable than this `alliance' of far-right yokels and cynical right-of-centre citizens. Harper's conservatives are fringe elements of the right wing trying to rebrand itself as the new and old conservatives... Tories used to appeal to every province, not just Alberta.

I have to agree with that summary.

[Smallc]

I have to agree with that summary.

I do to. That party never would have lied about the Constitution and Parliament the way that this party did. It will be a long time before I forgive them for that.

[August1991]

It is the Liberal party that was in power through most of the countries history.

Our country's history is longer than the federal Liberal party.

A protestant from France started the Quebec colony. A presbyterian from Scotland created a Canadian State. Neither were Liberals.

----

When Ignatieff says that the Liberal Party made Canada, he sounds like an arrogant fool - the precise contrary to his claim of being a "public intellectual". Ignatieff is no Trudeau.

The Liberals have made a grave error in choosing Ignatieff as their leader. Then again, it may turn to something good. The federal Liberals will have to live without power and decide what they are.

Edited May 29, 2009 by August1991

[Radsickle]

Hey August.... Blah blah blah....

[Smallc]

Hey August.... Blah blah blah....

+ 1 000 000

[August1991]

Hey August.... Blah blah blah....

Blah, blah? We'll see. The Tory attack-Ignatieff ads didn't appear from nowhere. The ads were the product of testing and focus groups.

---

But more relevant in this thread is that Michael Ignatieff is his own worst enemy.

The Liberal Party seems to have chosen Ignatieff out of desperation because they believe that Ignatieff is another sophisticated Trudeau who will bring them back to power. Well, Ignatieff is no Trudeau. This finesse won't pass.

The Liberal party needs time to rethink itself.

[WIP]

I live in Stoney Creek, one of those 'conquered' suburbs forced to amalgamate with Hamilton 'cuz it never could handle its own finances. That's the real reason Harris forced us together, despite the fact that it was the suburbs that voted for him and Hamilton would never give him any voter support. The province just didn't want to have to bail Hamilton out!

I've been here since 1960 and all these years I've watched as Hamilton blithely assumed that heavy manufacturing would be here forever and did DIDDLYSQUAT to diversify its economy!

Up until this year, a lot of people living in Stoney Creek, Ancaster, Dundas or Glanbrook, were working in Hamilton, but paying their property taxes in those nice new suburbs. I was doing it myself, until circumstances forced me to move closer to work 10 years ago. But, that flight to the suburbs that affects many cities, allows many who depend on the city for their livelihood, to escape the corresponding tax burden.

In Hamilton, commercial taxes were raised over the years to make up for the shortfall in property taxes. Unfortunately this left Hamilton with one of the highest commercial tax rates in Canada, and was a big reason why the city has not attracted much light manufacturing to make up for the decline in heavy industry over the last 25 years.

But why should we be losing our manufacturing anyway? Why is a major steel manufacturing operation being allowed to close, violating the terms of the purchase agreement that U.S. Steel made when they bought Stelco?

The world changed and Hamilton ignored it. Finally the bottom fell out and Hamilton is left with little or nothing.

You blame it all on the Conservatives?

Unbelievable!

The world didn't just change by accident! The conservative pro-business policies that promoted unbridled free trade are forcing us to compete with Third World labour. I guess that's what conservatives consider adapting to a changing marketplace!

[Keepitsimple]

By my calculations, Liberals have held power for 84 years, Conservatives for 55 years. While it is true that Liberals have been the dominant party of the 20th century in Canada, the Conservative Party had an even more dominant hold on power between confederation and 1920. I think it's fair to say that politics is a pendulum and circumstances can cause it to swing either way for periods of time. Interestingly, much of the "total years in power" for the Liberals were attained through Mackenzie King who served 21 years as Prime Minister. He must have been an amazing politician.

Much of the information on King's personal life can be sourced to the diaries he kept from 1893 until his death in 1950. One biographer has collectively described these diaries as "the most important single political document in twentieth-century Canadian history,"[30] as, in addition to the unique insight on King's private life they provide, the directions and motivations of the Canadian war efforts and other events are described in detail.[31]

Mackenzie King was a cautious politician who tailored his policies to prevailing opinions. "Parliament will decide," he liked to say when pressed to act.

Privately, he was highly eccentric with his preference for communing with spirits, including those of Leonardo da Vinci, Sir Wilfrid Laurier, his dead mother, and several of his Irish Terrier dogs, all named Pat. He also claimed to commune with the spirit of Franklin Delano Roosevelt, American president and close friend.[32] He sought personal reassurance from the spirit world, rather than seeking political advice. Indeed, after his death, one of his mediums said that she had not realized that he was a politician. King asked whether his party would win the 1935 election, one of the few times politics came up during his seances. His occult interests were not widely known during his years in office, and only became publicized later, and have seen in his occult activities a penchant for forging unities from antitheses, thus having latent political import. In 1953 Time Magazine stated that he owned – and used – both a Ouija board and a crystal ball. In the 1970s biographers used the extensive diaries he kept during most of his life to delve deeper into his occult activities. One person he held seances with was Canadian Artist Homer Watson.

King never married, but had several close female friends, including Joan Patteson, a married woman with whom he spent some of his leisure time.

Some historians have interpreted passages in his diaries as suggesting that King regularly had sexual relations with prostitutes.[33] Others, also basing their claims on passages of his diaries, have suggested that King was in love with Lord Tweedsmuir, whom he had chosen for appointment as Governor General in 1935.[34]

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Lyon_Mackenzie_King

Edited May 29, 2009 by Keepitsimple

[KingIggy]

I hope some brave journalist asks Ignatieff "Who built Canada?"

I would love to see him try to defend his answer that a political party built the Country, namely the Liberals. Or maybe Ignatieff would change his answer to suit the audience. This has been known to happen.

And to smallc. The fact that the Liberals were in power most years since Confederation does not make them the pillar of the federation.

In reality, what does Ignatieff know about the Liberals he leads? Ten general elections were held during his absence. What does he know about the twists and turns the party took, and their ups and downs during the three decades he lived outside Canada? Even Bob Rae has a better understanding of what the Liberals are about.

Xenophobic Neo-Con rightwingers of the North (AKA Harper Supporters) are so glad to Americanize Canada according to Republican philosophy (militarism, tax cuts, war on drugs, big debt) yet they start bashing those who DARED to reside in America as soon as their esteemed parliamentary power is threatened.

LOL !!!

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Neither the Conservatives or the Liberals have the handle natural ruling party. They certainly don't deserve it if they did. What most nations really need is to take a few steps away from nationalism and stop fearing the real world. The real game is simple, the nation that can convert the most resources into usable products wins. Now here in Canada we have resources out the ass, yet we lack to a large degree the ability to manufacture anything. Our normal course of action is to ship out raw material and bring in finished products. This may work fine for a colony feeding a large market wise civilization but it doesn't really work in the best interests of the colony.

We need to wake up and smell the coffee. This is one of those magical moments where the government is hell bent of spending money and there is a real desire to build some infrastructure. Now is the tie to invest in some secondary industrial development.

[August1991]

Xenophobic Neo-Con rightwingers of the North (AKA Harper Supporters) are so glad to Americanize Canada according to Republican philosophy (militarism, tax cuts, war on drugs, big debt) yet they start bashing those who DARED to reside in America as soon as their esteemed parliamentary power is threatened.

As much as I disagree with Rick Salutin, he said it best in his column today:

The ads show him in a clip: “You have to decide what kind of America you want ... It's your country just as much as it is mine.” This is not an isolated aberration. In a New York Times article just five years ago, he wrote “we,” meaning Americans, six times in a single paragraph, and throughout.

That's pretty blatant misrepresentation and raises the question: Why did he do it, repeatedly?

...

He could say: It was immature and dishonest but I thought it would help me get ahead in the United States. He said something like it to Peter C. Newman in 2006. Then he might benefit from the silly old saw that says “It takes a big man to admit he's wrong.” No matter how lame his answer, he'd still have his political ace in the hole: He's not Stephen Harper.

G&M

There you have it. Ignatieff's one remaining claim to fame: He's not Stephen Harper. IOW, this is a competition of negatives and Ignatieff will have to split the anti-Harper vote with Duceppe and Layton.

----

The world didn't just change by accident! The conservative pro-business policies that promoted unbridled free trade are forcing us to compete with Third World labour. I guess that's what conservatives consider adapting to a changing marketplace!

WIP, I don't want to derail this thread but following your logic, it was wrong that bank tellers lost their jobs to the competition of lower cost ATMs. If a computer can do a job more cheaply than a person, would you forbid computers? Edited May 29, 2009 by August1991

[Jerry J. Fortin]

WIP, I don't want to derail this thread but following your logic, it was wrong that bank tellers lost their jobs to the competition of lower cost ATMs. If a computer can do a job more cheaply than a person, would you forbid computers?

So why does this cost me more than a teller did. Now I get a freaking bank tax or "service fee" just for the privilege of using a card so that the bank can SAVE money?

[Wild Bill]

Up until this year, a lot of people living in Stoney Creek, Ancaster, Dundas or Glanbrook, were working in Hamilton, but paying their property taxes in those nice new suburbs. I was doing it myself, until circumstances forced me to move closer to work 10 years ago. But, that flight to the suburbs that affects many cities, allows many who depend on the city for their livelihood, to escape the corresponding tax burden.

In Hamilton, commercial taxes were raised over the years to make up for the shortfall in property taxes. Unfortunately this left Hamilton with one of the highest commercial tax rates in Canada, and was a big reason why the city has not attracted much light manufacturing to make up for the decline in heavy industry over the last 25 years.

But why should we be losing our manufacturing anyway? Why is a major steel manufacturing operation being allowed to close, violating the terms of the purchase agreement that U.S. Steel made when they bought Stelco?

The world didn't just change by accident! The conservative pro-business policies that promoted unbridled free trade are forcing us to compete with Third World labour. I guess that's what conservatives consider adapting to a changing marketplace!

Suburbanites working in Hamilton? Yeah, maybe one or two!

Go down to the QEW every morning and see the traffic jamups of people driving to Toronto for their jobs and coming back at quitting time. Hamilton is a bedroom community for Toronto. The proof is there right before your eyes. The suburbs have not been getting their jobs from Hamilton since the 1950's!

Commercial taxes were raised because Council was afraid to raise residential taxes! A lot more votes at risk from homeowners! This accelerated the businesses closing down on Burlington Street. Now we have very little commercial tax base to tax! Hamilton has perhaps the highest commercial taxes of any similar city in Canada. A business would need its head read to locate in Hamilton.

Why should we be losing our manufacturing base? No one says we should! I'm just saying it would have been smart of Hamilton to pay attention 20 years ago and diversify its economy, instead of playing ostrich with its head in the sand, sitting around wondering when Inglis was going to come back!

I guess that's what we call a Liberal approach!

[Oleg Bach]

Hamilton reminds me of what the worst parts of Detroit became - It's a deadish town - wonder if Ignatieff can bring them what they need --------------------culture..and not a damned sports team...wonder how much class this liberal has - or is he all book wormish and sterile?

[WIP]

Suburbanites working in Hamilton? Yeah, maybe one or two!

Stelco had over 20,000 plant employees about 25 years ago; that's why I was speaking in past tense. Most of the steelworkers were living on the Mountain or in the suburbs. So, for decades, Stelco, Dofasco, Firestone, John Deere, and other factory employees were working in the city, but paying their taxes elsewhere.

Go down to the QEW every morning and see the traffic jamups of people driving to Toronto for their jobs and coming back at quitting time. Hamilton is a bedroom community for Toronto. The proof is there right before your eyes. The suburbs have not been getting their jobs from Hamilton since the 1950's!

And a lot of people in Toronto wanted amalgamation for the same reason -- because there are so many commuters driving into the city to work, and going back home to the suburbs (or trying to!)

Commercial taxes were raised because Council was afraid to raise residential taxes! A lot more votes at risk from homeowners! This accelerated the businesses closing down on Burlington Street. Now we have very little commercial tax base to tax! Hamilton has perhaps the highest commercial taxes of any similar city in Canada. A business would need its head read to locate in Hamilton.

I know! But if they raised municipal property taxes, that would have only driven down the value of real estate and reduced homebuilding up on the Mountain. Amalgamation helped to spread the urban tax burden a bit, but Harris's other scheme of making welfare a municipal obligation is a deathknell for older, industrial cities that have a burden not shared by suburban communities.

We all pay for the building of new highways, such as the 403 Extension, to make it cheaper for commuters to drive farther and pollute more -- so why shouldn't the welfare burden also be a shared provincial or federal responsibility?

Why should we be losing our manufacturing base? No one says we should! I'm just saying it would have been smart of Hamilton to pay attention 20 years ago and diversify its economy, instead of playing ostrich with its head in the sand, sitting around wondering when Inglis was going to come back!

There is corruption and incompetence at every level of government -- right now it's on parade, being led by Stephen Harper and Jim Flaherty; the point is that most developed and developing nations, aside from Canada and the U.S., have a national, coordinated strategy for industry and manufacturing. The U.S. seems to have deliberately allow their manufacturing base to die off under Republican rule, and Canada hasn't been a whole lot better! Right now, we have a Prime Minister, who is from the resource-rich part of the country, and is focused on the wants and needs of the oil industry and other resource companies. There is very little evidence that they care about the central part of Canada, or manufacturing. And with no Federal leadership on this issue, there is little or nothing a city government can do to change the situation. Just look at Bob Wade's example for instance. He thought he knew everything when he was mayor of Ancaster - a village with rapidly growing subdivisions to increase the tax base. As soon as he took his great political skills to Hamilton, he was worse than useless, and unable to stop the decline.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Stelco had over 20,000 plant employees about 25 years ago; that's why I was speaking in past tense. Most of the steelworkers were living on the Mountain or in the suburbs. So, for decades, Stelco, Dofasco, Firestone, John Deere, and other factory employees were working in the city, but paying their taxes elsewhere.

And a lot of people in Toronto wanted amalgamation for the same reason -- because there are so many commuters driving into the city to work, and going back home to the suburbs (or trying to!)

I know! But if they raised municipal property taxes, that would have only driven down the value of real estate and reduced homebuilding up on the Mountain. Amalgamation helped to spread the urban tax burden a bit, but Harris's other scheme of making welfare a municipal obligation is a deathknell for older, industrial cities that have a burden not shared by suburban communities.

We all pay for the building of new highways, such as the 403 Extension, to make it cheaper for commuters to drive farther and pollute more -- so why shouldn't the welfare burden also be a shared provincial or federal responsibility?

There is corruption and incompetence at every level of government -- right now it's on parade, being led by Stephen Harper and Jim Flaherty; the point is that most developed and developing nations, aside from Canada and the U.S., have a national, coordinated strategy for industry and manufacturing. The U.S. seems to have deliberately allow their manufacturing base to die off under Republican rule, and Canada hasn't been a whole lot better! Right now, we have a Prime Minister, who is from the resource-rich part of the country, and is focused on the wants and needs of the oil industry and other resource companies. There is very little evidence that they care about the central part of Canada, or manufacturing. And with no Federal leadership on this issue, there is little or nothing a city government can do to change the situation. Just look at Bob Wade's example for instance. He thought he knew everything when he was mayor of Ancaster - a village with rapidly growing subdivisions to increase the tax base. As soon as he took his great political skills to Hamilton, he was worse than useless, and unable to stop the decline.

That really is the point isn't it, the fact that the politicians are usually behind one eight ball or another, and rarely in the right position to do the right thing. I agree that our problems stem from a lack of economic diversification. Now some folks will say that is the fault of the investment community, but I will whisper a little secret here. Foreign investment is designed to bring profits out of the nation where operations are conducted and bring those profits to the home nation of the corporation. They will go to great lengths to accomplish this.

What we need is a viable secondary industrial complex of an home grown nature. We need to format our efforts to take advantage of our own natural resources instead of letting other take that advantage away from us. We need a "buy Canadian" program that supports jobs at home and profits being plowed back into local economies. There all lots of ways to do this will protecting the ownership from foreign control such as coops and the like. This isn't rocket science folks, but it does touch on big business turf and that means dealing with all the lobby groups and special interest that go with them. There is a darn good reason that these things are simply not done and that is because it cuts the big players out of the deal. Its like standing up to the mob in some regards.

[Wild Bill]

There is corruption and incompetence at every level of government -- right now it's on parade, being led by Stephen Harper and Jim Flaherty; the point is that most developed and developing nations, aside from Canada and the U.S., have a national, coordinated strategy for industry and manufacturing.

I'm certainly not trying to defend Harper, but a man in a minority government can't possibly be expected to be as effective as those who enjoyed over a decade of majority rule.

You are so fixated on blaming Tories that you seem incapable of considering Hamilton's own faults. How about Bob Morrow? What the hell did he do to diversify Hamilton's economy? He was in for a LONG time!

Look at the typical Hamilton councilor and you can see who REALLY is to blame for Hamilton's plight! Watch a council meeting on the local cable channel. It doesn't sound like a effective municipal government in session. It sounds like a friggin' steel company union/management negotiation meeting!

Hamilton has gotten what it deserved. The best thing for the suburbs would be to be allowed to de-amalgamate. If there is a single success story for the suburbs where they got better services and/or lower taxes I've yet to hear it. Let Hamilton go on it's own. They can look to the likes of Sam Merulla for their salvation!

[WIP]

That really is the point isn't it, the fact that the politicians are usually behind one eight ball or another, and rarely in the right position to do the right thing.

If they actually want to do the right thing! Most politicians just want to do whatever will increase their odds of winning the next election.

I agree that our problems stem from a lack of economic diversification. Now some folks will say that is the fault of the investment community, but I will whisper a little secret here. Foreign investment is designed to bring profits out of the nation where operations are conducted and bring those profits to the home nation of the corporation. They will go to great lengths to accomplish this.

That would be great news if they were actually headquartered in the countries where they conduct their business operations from, but it seems that a good chunk of the profits are going to places like the Cayman Islands - where companies like Coca-Cola, Oracle, Intel and Del Monte, are registered for tax purposes. http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206...&refer=home

But, even if we were dealing with honest businessmen who brought their profits back home, that still doesn't make up for the loss of jobs at the factories which have been closed and outsourced to China and India; and it also effects the secondary market of suppliers that provided products and services for these manufacturing operations here.

What we need is a viable secondary industrial complex of an home grown nature. We need to format our efforts to take advantage of our own natural resources instead of letting other take that advantage away from us. We need a "buy Canadian" program that supports jobs at home and profits being plowed back into local economies.

Canada is not likely going to be able to go it alone and support its own domestic manufacturing needs; but before GATT, NAFTA and the FTA, trade agreements were bilateral, like the Auto Pact, which created a North American auto manufacturing strategy. When the FTA and NAFTA were first proposed, under Reagan/Mulroney, the main argument that their supporters used was that North America needed to set up a trading block to counter the E.U. and the ASEAN in Asia. So what happened to the North American trading block that was supposed to protect North American interests and promote our industry and stop the flood of Japanese imports? It turned into a flood of Chinese imports!