Canada's immigration policy.

[Visionseeker]

I acknowledge that the development and adoption of Official Bilignualism is an act of pure political expediency in an attempt to bribe Quebec to stay in Canada. It's success in that respect is hard to measure, though I'm guessing the results are likley mixed, with Official Bilingualism having baught some Sovereigntists to the federalist camp, though obviously not all.

Wow! What a terribly unepathetic, anglo-centred view of the policy. Official bilingualism is a policy that ensure that 1 in 4 Canadians can speak to their government in their own language. No more, no less.

Personally though, I'm revulted by language policies based on purely political considerations, with little to no thought put into the question of how efficiently it will improve communicability at the grassroots. By the way, a few scholarly publications I've read acknowledge the purely political motivation behind it.

If by political motivations you mean that the state has pandered to a substantial minority by virtue of committing to speak to it and allowing it to speak back, then I say guilty. But how is this a crime? What is unconscionable about this?

Also, my statement that most Canadians probably support it in no way implies that they necessarily know what they are supporting, other than a well-marketted 'Canadian identity'.

I won't hazard to guess why most Canadians support it. But I'm glad they do. For it speaks to the basic civility that is the Canadian experience.

[g_bambino]

Official bilingualism is a policy that ensure that 1 in 4 Canadians can speak to their government in their own language. No more, no less.

But, then, if there wasn't an element of Quebec appeasement behind the implementation of Official Bilingualism, why is the policy so biased as to exclude everyone who's "own language" isn't French or English? Must it not become Official Multilingualism? There are more than 200,000 Hindi speaking individuals in Brampton, Ontario, who don't get to speak to their government in their own language. (I am merely and somewhat playing devil's advocate here; I don't have the answers myself, and am intrigued to hear what others think.)

[Visionseeker]

But, then, if there wasn't an element of Quebec appeasement behind the implementation of Official Bilingualism, why is the policy so biased as to exclude everyone who's "own language" isn't French or English? Must it not become Official Multilingualism? There are more than 200,000 Hindi speaking individuals in Brampton, Ontario, who don't get to speak to their government in their own language. (I am merely and somewhat playing devil's advocate here; I don't have the answers myself, and am intrigued to hear what others think.)

The Government of Canada has been taking steps to address service provision to non-official language communities. Those steps have necessarily been limited to outreach activities, but represent significant overtures nontheless.

That the critical mass of French-Canadians reside in the province of Quebec should not lead us to believe that bilingualism is a Quebec thing. Bilingualism isn't about provinces, it's about the individual right to speak to your national ancestral government in your own language. French has been a fact in what we call Canada since the 1600s. While English made its appearence in the late 1700s, it wasn't until the mid-1800s that English out numbered the French in the group of colonies.

In the ensuing 100 years, the English majority tired many tactics to extinguish the French fact. All of these attempts failed. Then, some started to say "If we can't beat them, then lets ask them to join us" and lo and behold, bilingualism was born.

[Oleg Bach]

You come here - you abide by the rules and laws of your adopted national family - these laws are communicated for the most part in English - speak English or get your own nation!

[CANADIEN]

You come here - you abide by the rules and laws of your adopted national family - these laws are communicated for the most part in English - speak English or get your own nation!

Geez, when my ancestors were getting off the ship in Quebec city or Port Royal in the 17th century, they look for the custom officers who were suppoed to remind them they had just landed in a British posession... and they looked, and they looked, and they looked.

Or maybe they only arrived after 1760.

:lol:

Edited May 30, 2009 by CANADIEN

[benny]

You come here - you abide by the rules and laws of your adopted national family - these laws are communicated for the most part in English - speak English or get your own nation!

...you abide by the rules and laws of your adopted state which contains several nations speaking different (official) languages.

[Oleg Bach]

...you abide by the rules and laws of your adopted state which contains several nations speaking different (official) languages.

Call me a nationalist if you must - I guess that's illegal these days with all of you globalist types attempting to take over the planet - wait a second benny - the planet is mine - you had better learn to speak earthling - or I am sending you back to the dark side of the moon!

[benny]

Call me a nationalist if you must - I guess that's illegal these days with all of you globalist types attempting to take over the planet - wait a second benny - the planet is mine - you had better learn to speak earthling - or I am sending you back to the dark side of the moon!

If the planet is yours, care a bit more for it.

[Oleg Bach]

If the planet is yours, care a bit more for it.

I'm doing my best - I could use your help benny - just planted some growth on my tar roof patio - It does not take anymore than a love of all life forms and nature - if we all knew what a heavenly garden it was - all would be well - best I can do is let out the secret information - that we have died and are in heaven - or hell - your choice.

[benny]

I'm doing my best

How can you be so sure of that!?

[Oleg Bach]

How can you be so sure of that!?

I am not - If I did my very best - it would be scarey - the world is not ready for the likes of me - and I will in time pass out of this place - without doing my best - unless you truely demand the best - then - I may consider taking a chance - the best are usually destroyed - and I like it here.

[Oleg Bach]

How can you be so sure of that!?

I am not - If I did my very best - it would be scarey - the world is not ready for the likes of me - and I will in time pass out of this place - without doing my best - unless you truely demand the best - then - I may consider taking a chance - the best are usually destroyed - and I like it here.

[Oleg Bach]

How can you be so sure of that!?

I am not - If I did my very best - it would be scarey - the world is not ready for the likes of me - and I will in time pass out of this place - without doing my best - unless you truely demand the best - then - I may consider taking a chance - the best are usually destroyed - and I like it here. Just staying alive is the best that we all can do - it's our duty - to be like little ants and do our best - collectively the ant hill is built - "if you want wisdom - go to the ant" - You will notice that one digs - doing a partial job - then gets fleeting - and runs to the next hole to continue - another ant comes in to finish what the previous started - they are unconscious individually - but collectively they have a purpose - and they get the job done.

[benny]

Just staying alive is the best that we all can do - it's our duty

I could understand that if we were all Russians living under Putin's rules.

[Machjo]

Wow! What a terribly unepathetic, anglo-centred view of the policy. Official bilingualism is a policy that ensure that 1 in 4 Canadians can speak to their government in their own language. No more, no less.

Tu a sans doute remarqué que j'avais tapé la phrase 'le Bilinguisme Officiel' comme un nom propre, en faisant référence à la politique telle qu'elle est définie en ce moment, par opposition au bilinguisme officiel comme phrase comme phrase commune. Bien que je je soutient le bilinguisme officiel, pour la raison que tu a mentionné ci-dessus, je ne soutiens pas le Bilinguisme Officiel tel qu'il est défini actuellement à cause de son inefficacité absurde.

And this is what we read from 'Language Policies in Education' (ISBN 970805836011), a scholarly book designed as a textbook for graduate and post-graduate studies in language education:

From the essay 'Language Policies in Canada' (chapter 4 of the book above) by Barbara Burnaby, University of Newfoundland states (p.66):

Throughout the 1960s, the "quiet Revolution" in Quebec entailed demands for the French language rights stipulated in the British North America Act (Neatby, 1992). In 1963, the federal government established the Royal Commission on Bilingualism and Biculturalism to look at relations among linguistic groups in the country; its main result was the declaration in 1969 of English and French as Canada's official languages. The Official Languages Act made English and French the languages of the federal parliamentand bureaucracy, creating the Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages, and establishing rules for language rights in education....

You'll notice how all this was sparked by the Cultural Revolution, a political shift in the country. On the next page, she goes on to reference the shift from official biculturalism to multiculturalism while keeing bilingualism, this shift resulting from a backlash against official biculturalism from minority culturla groups. And referencing the 1980's, at the bottom of the same page, she states:

From this point, the conflict began to change in character.Going into the 1980's, the federal government's political struggle with Quebec and other francophone populations expanded from language... to include the soverignty of Quebec.

It's clear from her words that she does not view this as a natural evolution of the culture but rather as actions and strategic reactions in a political struggle. I'm not taking sides here, as both sides are at least partially at fault (it takes two to tango), but merely pointing out that it is a simple reaction to political coflict and nothing more. I remember reading similar comments in another book on socio-linguisitcs referring Quebec a few years ago, published by Oxford University Press, titled Introduction to Socio-linguistics, but I don't know where that book is right now, but essentially it also suggested that Official Bilingualism was a purely strategic move.

If by political motivations you mean that the state has pandered to a substantial minority by virtue of committing to speak to it and allowing it to speak back, then I say guilty. But how is this a crime? What is unconscionable about this?

No crime, and not unconscionable. What I am saying though is that English Canada did not just walk in with arms wide open to embrace French Canada. It granted Official Bilingualism as a short-term politically expedient strategy to soothe tensions between linguistic groups. To this extent, the English-speakers are partially at fault for this conflict for not granting decent rights to Francophones previously. But then they're doubly at fault for having overreacted when the kettle overflowed by adopting a highly inefficient policy making bilingualism required from coeast to coast to coeast when in fact we do have clear linguisic regions. Would it not save alot of money to simply have federal bilingualism or even more in parliament, but regional administrative unilingualism elsewhere?

I won't hazard to guess why most Canadians support it. But I'm glad they do. For it speaks to the basic civility that is the Canadian experience.

Connait-tu le français, Visionseeker?

[Machjo]

The stupidity is in actually believing this is just semantics. Those who think that French is not a Canadian language like English is, that French-speaking Canadians should be treated like second class citizens without their rights as Canadians, who wants Quebec out, and who believe that French-speakers outside Quebec are all from Quebec, and that they belong only im Quebec, those people who would tell you in public "speak Canadian" - these people are not engaging iin a semantic exercise. And neither do I.

Speak Canadian? I thought they said "speak white"? That's the term I'd heard once for daring to speak French, in the national capital of all places. Now I don't necessarily support that the local government have two official languages (waste of money), but it's a shame that we have so many francophobic bigots who oppose official bilingualism for the wrong reason: zenophobia.

[Machjo]

But, then, if there wasn't an element of Quebec appeasement behind the implementation of Official Bilingualism, why is the policy so biased as to exclude everyone who's "own language" isn't French or English? Must it not become Official Multilingualism? There are more than 200,000 Hindi speaking individuals in Brampton, Ontario, who don't get to speak to their government in their own language. (I am merely and somewhat playing devil's advocate here; I don't have the answers myself, and am intrigued to hear what others think.)

forget Hindi, that's a recent addition. What about Nunavut. According to Statscan 2006, 8% of their population assessed themselves as knowing neither English nor French.

Ah, but French-speakers had the political clout to start the Quiet Revolution. Imagine if a few people in nunavut tried the same. They'd get nowhere. Not european enough I guess.

[Machjo]

The Government of Canada has been taking steps to address service provision to non-official language communities. Those steps have necessarily been limited to outreach activities, but represent significant overtures nontheless.

That the critical mass of French-Canadians reside in the province of Quebec should not lead us to believe that bilingualism is a Quebec thing. Bilingualism isn't about provinces, it's about the individual right to speak to your national ancestral government in your own language. French has been a fact in what we call Canada since the 1600s. While English made its appearence in the late 1700s, it wasn't until the mid-1800s that English out numbered the French in the group of colonies.

In the ensuing 100 years, the English majority tired many tactics to extinguish the French fact. All of these attempts failed. Then, some started to say "If we can't beat them, then lets ask them to join us" and lo and behold, bilingualism was born.

If you take this principle to the extreme, then Canada would need hundreds of official languages. Expensive proposition there. What I see as the problem is a conflict between rights and efficiency. The fewer the languages, the more efficient it is. But also the fewer the official languages, the greater the risk of the marginalization of other groups.

I believe the most efficeint way of balancing this conflict would be through one official language, but one designed to be easy to learn. As only one official language, it would meet the criterium of efficiency. Yet by being designed to be easy to learn, it would also meet the criteium of justice and equity, giving access to all.

Such a strategy would need to be implemented incrementally over time though, and so official bilignalism in French and English, though neither the most efficient nor most just of policies, sits in the middle as not the most inefficient or unjust policies either.

[benny]

Now I don't necessarily support that the local government have two official languages (waste of money), but it's a shame that we have so many francophobic bigots who oppose official bilingualism for the wrong reason: zenophobia.

The Olympic Games are the most famous temporary immigration I can think of and having English and French at the local government levels allows a city to organize them much more appropriately.

[Machjo]

You come here - you abide by the rules and laws of your adopted national family - these laws are communicated for the most part in English - speak English or get your own nation!

I'm not necessarily opposed to Quebec sovereignty, as long as it's a civil separation. With attitudes like yours, I don't blame Quebec for wanting to separate.

I agree that immigrants should learn the national language of their future host country, and I also agree that a common language ought to be the goal. In the meantime, though Canada is officially bilingual, and has never been totally English speaking from the start. Fine revision of history there.

If English were easy to learn, maybe I could agree with you. But it's a bloody mess, and so most Quebecers could not learn it well. They have rights in their province too.

[Machjo]

Wow! What a terribly unepathetic, anglo-centred view of the policy.

And just a point about l'anglocentrisme. Ma langue maternelle est le français.

[CANADIEN]

Speak Canadian? I thought they said "speak white"? That's the term I'd heard once for daring to speak French, in the national capital of all places. Now I don't necessarily support that the local government have two official languages (waste of money), but it's a shame that we have so many francophobic bigots who oppose official bilingualism for the wrong reason: zenophobia.

I have heard both. The last one who tried the "Speak Canadian", as a joke mind you, had his ears rining for three weeks.

[Machjo]

The Olympic Games are the most famous temporary immigration I can think of and having English and French at the local government levels allows a city to organize them much more appropriately.

So what about the Beijing Olympics? Should just have been in Chinese?

I'm not sure what you're getting at? If you mean that the Olympics should be in the local vernacular, then what I just typed above is in fact what you're suggesting. If it shold be in all major world languages, then are you suggesting that Vancouver should adopt upteen official languages just for the Olympics?

It's one or the other. Unless we have a world language? Some think it's English, and to some degree it is, at least for native speakers and the elites.

[Machjo]

I have heard both. The last one who tried the "Speak Canadian", as a joke mind you, had his ears rining for three weeks.

Interesting. First time I'd heard speak Canadian. The speak white comments were not meant as a joke. Man, the ignorance of some people. Can't they see that language has no necessary link to race?

And as for Canada, it's but a baby in diapers among nations, the French and English languages having set foot on this soil just this morning in historical terms.

[benny]

I have heard both. The last one who tried the "Speak Canadian", as a joke mind you, had his ears rining for three weeks.

When the phone rings, it may be Statistics Canada calling. This Agency is fighting prejudices by systematically asking if one wants to answer in English or in French, especially when the answer may be obvious.