Public Education

lukin · May 11, 2009

I would just like to know what everyone thinks of the quality of education being delivered in our public schools these days. Please share your opinions whether you live in a city or a small town, with reference to all grades starting at kindergarten.

I don't want this to become a teacher bashing discussion. We all know there are good teachers and not-so-good teachers, much like any profession.

A problem that I have is that it seems that some school divisions are being run like companies, without having the best interests of students in mind.

Edited May 11, 2009 by lukin

M.Dancer · May 12, 2009

My daughter is in grade 4 french immersion. SHe is thriving, being challenged and taking risks. I am quite happy with her teacher and the school but I have to say the riding and polo programme is completely lacking

Trax · May 12, 2009

I am concerned. There are several things that appear odd to me. There seems to be huge differences between schools so I am not sure if the system is quirky or if the issues are school based.

Molly · May 12, 2009

I'm a definite 3-R's afficionado-- competence there opens the door to all other competencies-- and so, I am also worried.

While it is possible to come out of the system here with an extraordinary education, it is also possible to go through the motions, complete the necessities, and be granted the same credentials while having recieved an apallingly deficient education.

IMO, that's a very, very big problem. It is a terrible disservice to students to move them on without firmly establishing competence enough to face the next step. That applies from the first day of juniour kindergarten to the last day of those extra years of high school, spent picking up a few more credits.

Wild Bill · May 12, 2009

I would just like to know what everyone thinks of the quality of education being delivered in our public schools these days. Please share your opinions whether you live in a city or a small town, with reference to all grades starting at kindergarten.
I don't want this to become a teacher bashing discussion. We all know there are good teachers and not-so-good teachers, much like any profession.

A problem that I have is that it seems that some school divisions are being run like companies, without having the best interests of students in mind.

I can only speak for my own two daughters, who both attended a nearby school. One girl just finished her first year of University, the other is finishing Grade 7.

What struck me with both of them was how most of their teachers were computer illiterates! Two principals in a row even had to have their secretaries (secretaries! Can you believe it! How 1980!) retrieve their emails for them.

I've learned long ago that you can't fight these sorts of situations. I made sure of my daughters' computer literacy on my own. Both of them had a mouse in their hand by the time they were 3! By kindergarten they not only could play many computer learning games that schools did not offer till at least grade 3 but they had no problem booting up the games themselves, with no adult supervision. By the time they were required to do research and write essays they were masters of "google", cut and paste, sharing files with their friends and knowing what magic 'bad word" would get a balky printer to work!

Even the teacher in charge of what the school calls a "computer class" never really impressed me. Perhaps I'm just naive but I always thought that those in the 'knowledge industry' would have embraced computers like a duck loves water. There are a few new teachers that are competent, mostly fresh out of teacher's college and forced to take supply and part-time jobs until some of the older Luddites die off.

Perhaps it's always been this way. Anyhow, as I said there's no point in fighting. My priority was and is my own children and it was not that great an effort on Mom and Dad's part to make sure they were properly prepared for modern times.

Oleg Bach · May 12, 2009

It will be amuzing if there is a collapse in the infrastructure and a power failure - and a shortage of batteries...wonder what the hand writing will look like of these grand computer literates? Will it look like the chicken scratched letter written by OJ Simpson? May as well start implanting the computer literates with chips and screw solar panel to their heads...I am impressed with a person that can scribe by hand...and not as impressed by a two fingered key board clicker.

Wild Bill · May 12, 2009

It will be amuzing if there is a collapse in the infrastructure and a power failure - and a shortage of batteries...wonder what the hand writing will look like of these grand computer literates? Will it look like the chicken scratched letter written by OJ Simpson? May as well start implanting the computer literates with chips and screw solar panel to their heads...I am impressed with a person that can scribe by hand...and not as impressed by a two fingered key board clicker.

Well, I appreciate those who have either set of skills! However, computers are obviously here to stay and my point was that my daughter's grade school teachers were at least 25 years behind the times. Horsemanship was once an almost universal skill to greater or lesser degree but a driver's license is more useful to most folks today.

I'm impressed by those who can scribe by hand too. It just seems that my daughters' teachers are not comfortable with anything more advanced than a feather pen!

Oleg Bach · May 12, 2009

Even and old guy like me can figure out the basics - I can run a multi-track recording program - and I am thankful I took typing in school...as for those that need a second party to retrieve e-mail...well that's just plain lazy. I still can not cut and paste because it is of little use to me - so I did not bother learning - all teachers and principles should have basic computer skills...nothing fancey but at least be able to send or recieve and electronic letter.

lukin · May 12, 2009

Much research has proven that too much time spent on computers is re-wiring children's brains in a negative way. I understand your point Wild Bill. However, I do agree with Oleg. Kids only need to be taught basic computer skills. Knowing how to do a power point in Grade 3 is unnecessary as it takes away from the basic skills that are needed. A teacher friend of mine who has been teaching for many years tells me that kids can't do nearly as much academically nowadays as they could 20 years ago. She said textbooks, such as math, have become severely watered down. There is too much "How do you feel" instead of "What do you think?" in today's education. I think public education is doing a a great disservice to today's youth. I tend to put the blame at the shoulders of provincial departments of education. Parents need to wake up and start demanding more and better.

Wild Bill · May 13, 2009

Much research has proven that too much time spent on computers is re-wiring children's brains in a negative way. I understand your point Wild Bill. However, I do agree with Oleg. Kids only need to be taught basic computer skills. Knowing how to do a power point in Grade 3 is unnecessary as it takes away from the basic skills that are needed. A teacher friend of mine who has been teaching for many years tells me that kids can't do nearly as much academically nowadays as they could 20 years ago. She said textbooks, such as math, have become severely watered down. There is too much "How do you feel" instead of "What do you think?" in today's education. I think public education is doing a a great disservice to today's youth. I tend to put the blame at the shoulders of provincial departments of education. Parents need to wake up and start demanding more and better.

Lukin, academic abilities have been declining for far longer than 20 years! It seems to have been a trend that began in the late 50's and early 60's. I graduated high school in 70-71. I was one of the last students to take 4 years of Latin. By my Grade 13 it was discontinued. I would have liked to have taken Greek but that was axed the year before I got to high school.

In Grade 11 we once had a 'spare' due to a teacher illness where we were supervised by a teacher in her final year before retirement. She had started teaching high school at the start of WWII. To kill the time she asked us if we'd be interested in taking an English Comprehension and Grammar test that she used to give students in the late 40's and early 50's.

We thought it was a great lark! Those were hippy days and like all teenagers we were quite cocky, believing that we would ace her test, since we were obviously much smarter and more 'advanced'.

The results knocked us off our high horses very quickly. The class average on the test was Grade 8 and we had some students as low as Grade 6!

Those were the preliminary years of the Hall-Denison Report. I really think that did quite a bit of damage to the students of the newer generations. Just as we were graduating there was the beginnings of the trend to abandon essay answers and just mark with point form or even "multiple guess". Much easier and faster to mark but of course it de-emphasized critical thinking in favour of mere rote learning.

I was lucky in that my daughters were and are quite bright. Judging by them and others like them in their peer group it seems that the upper portion of the Bell Curve learn well regardless of or even despite the nature of the "system". The bottom of the curve has always had special dispensations made and frankly, lower expectations.

It's the median portion of the Curve that suffers, IMHO. Their lack of basic skills are obvious to those of us from older generations. Fortunately, a return to some phonics in our area has helped reverse some of the poor results.

During my work career I was always impressed at how people much older than me may have never gone to high school and yet had already learned much by grade 8 that many younger people never saw until university.

I don't know where the trend will eventually take us. Already it would seem that many students can drop science as soon as those beans in the jar full of tissue paper have sprouted and died! Math skills have dramatically dropped. It's not the computer anymore than it was the calculator. You have to know what you want to do before you can use a tool to do it more quickly. My kids never were drilled in multiplication tables. I constantly find myself in situations where they can't follow me with doing simple math in my head.

Meanwhile, my brother-in-law gave up teaching and went into real estate. He just became too discouraged when he wasn't allowed to fail any of his Grade 8 students. His principal was bucking for a school board position and didn't want any bad vibes among the parents that might have caused him political problems. So kids who were far behind the needed standards were promoted anyway. They then became the high school's problem and no longer the principal's!

Edited May 13, 2009 by Wild Bill

lukin · May 13, 2009

Very interesting and level headed post Bill. Grammar nowadays is absolutely poor. Basic math skills, like knowing the times tables aren`t even expected anymore. This is a result of so-called "educational experts" :rolleyes: telling teachers that drill and practice is wrong. There are plenty more serious issues with public education. I'm very discouraged Bill. Afterall, these students represent our future. Something needs to seriously change.

Do you see change for the better with regards to public education ever happening, Bill?

Here is an interesting 50 year history of public education. It's all too true.

http://thelondonfog.blogspot.com/2009/01/5...-education.html

Edited May 13, 2009 by lukin

August1991 · May 13, 2009

I don't want this to become a teacher bashing discussion. We all know there are good teachers and not-so-good teachers, much like any profession.
A problem that I have is that it seems that some school divisions are being run like companies, without having the best interests of students in mind.

Companies?

It is impossible to discuss public education in Canada without discussing the iron control of teachers' unions and provincial ministries of education.

With unions, seniority decides absolutely everything. The consequences, over time, are horrendous.

My daughter is in grade 4 french immersion. SHe is thriving, being challenged and taking risks.

I have heard that this is a common way in English Canada to avoid the problems of unions and seniority. In general, French immersion has become a younger, parallel school system, accessible to more sophisticated parents.

In Quebec, about 30% of parents send their children to private secondary schools, subsidized by the State. This too is a way to avoid the problems of the existing school system.

Wild Bill · May 13, 2009

Companies?
It is impossible to discuss public education in Canada without discussing the iron control of teachers' unions and provincial ministries of education.

With unions, seniority decides absolutely everything. The consequences, over time, are horrendous.

Good point! It seems like teachers are trying to have it both ways, claiming to be professionals like engineers and doctors while going to rallies where they sing "Solidarity Forever" with Sid Ryan and Buzz Hargrove!

They have always been rabidly against any sort of standardized testing, claiming that it is not a good yardstick for a student when everyone knows the real reason is that it is about the only way to highlight somewhere with bad teaching!

Their Association in Ontario claims that they are self=policing yet only a handful of teachers lose their license, far less than you would expect from an organization of that size.

Still, the Ministry is not part of the Union and much of the "silliness" seems to come from them.

M.Dancer · May 13, 2009

.
I have heard that this is a common way in English Canada to avoid the problems of unions and seniority. In general, French immersion has become a younger, parallel school system, accessible to more sophisticated parents.

In Quebec, about 30% of parents send their children to private secondary schools, subsidized by the State. This too is a way to avoid the problems of the existing school system.

Same unions...same senority issues....probably better motivated teachers though.

But yes it is a way to send your children to a better school. We had a chice iof 3 schools. RC, English public and Immersion. We chose the immersion for good reasons and my daughter loves it. My daughters school ranks high in Toronto in academics, sports and parent involvement.

The down side is though, my wife and I used to be able to talk about her in front of her in french...now she corrects our grammar...My SOn starts french immersion next year in Senior Kindergarten....he has a natural ability with language, loves rhyming games...I expect he will buck the trend for boys (they don't do as well as girls in immersion.

The upside of the immersion is my daughter's class has only 2 boys in it...meaning the boys do not dominate the airtiime the way they do in a class that has gender parity...

BubberMiley · May 13, 2009

This thread has a lot of impressions that kids are less intelligent than years past, but little hard data. I can do the same, but my impressions are the opposite.

If you compare today's curricula to years' past, like, say, Grade 12 Pre-Calculus Mathematics compared to the old Math 300 of the 1960s and 70s, it's no comparison. There is way more calculus and it is by no means easier.

Kids do learn differently now, but that is more another product of technology. Rather than learn rote facts and dates and regurgitate them, they are expected to process volumes of information, pick out what's important, and form conclusions themselves. As a result, they are much better than previous generations at problem-solving.

And in terms of grammar and punctuation, previous generations were certainly no better. Overall literacy, I think, has greatly improved over time.

I think teachers do wonders considering the obstacles they face and the limited resources. I can't think of a worse fate than to have to guide a bunch of middle-schoolers through a math curriculum.

Things can always be improved, but we're certainly doing fine. So well, in fact, that many other countries (like China) have cut deals with our provincial governments to get our teachers and curriculum programs in their countries.

punked · May 13, 2009

Much research has proven that too much time spent on computers is re-wiring children's brains in a negative way. I understand your point Wild Bill. However, I do agree with Oleg. Kids only need to be taught basic computer skills. Knowing how to do a power point in Grade 3 is unnecessary as it takes away from the basic skills that are needed. A teacher friend of mine who has been teaching for many years tells me that kids can't do nearly as much academically nowadays as they could 20 years ago. She said textbooks, such as math, have become severely watered down. There is too much "How do you feel" instead of "What do you think?" in today's education. I think public education is doing a a great disservice to today's youth. I tend to put the blame at the shoulders of provincial departments of education. Parents need to wake up and start demanding more and better.

Actually what research really says is computers don't change the quality education or learning. However they do increase attendance. Your teacher friend just hates change nothing has really changed as far as challenge and so on goes.

Muddy · May 13, 2009

Of course my opinion comes from my own limited education. Although I quit school in grade six these are my observations watching my children and now grandchildren tackle school. I think computers are a marvelous thing , but I have great concern for kids who do not have basic math skills , spelling, and legible hand writing. Canadian history is being lost also. I think prekindergarten is a rip off. It insures our children will get not one but two years of finger painting and sandbox. This was a make work program for teachers and a cop out for parents who should be nurturing their children.

I have better math skills and spelling skills than most who have gone through the system? Why is that when I never completed grade school? Could it be,because we were not passed automatically to the next grade? Failure was not such a bad ego buster as we may think. On that subject of failure , it is part of life. It should be taught as well as success. We all face it in life. If children are passed on when they are not ready they will eventually crash into a wall. It is an injustice to pass kids through the system when they do not have the skills to tackle the next grade. Teaching should be a calling ,not a union job. I had the benafit of teachers who cared enough to teach me how to fail as well as succeed.

I look back on life and am proud of my success and the failures that have educated me.

Molly · May 13, 2009

Overall literacy has improved?

I can't agree with that at all. Perhaps reduced expectations have made standards easier to achieve...

Anecdotally... my own children hated having me review their homework, since I was the only person they dealt with who demanded accurate spelling, decent grammar, and defensible punctuation.

The number of young people I've dealt with- my childrens peers and associates, friends and neighbours- whose literacy skills were poor to non-existent, convinces me that there is something seriously wrong with the way good old readin' and writin' are being presented. When a young woman, upon recieving her high school diploma, enrols in a library-offered basic literacy program; when a 15 year old baby-sitter can't read a story to a toddler; when I am begged for my services as a tutor for a grade 7 student because he can't read any of his textbooks; when it comes as an epiphany to the 8-year-olds I'm helping that letters are actually representatiions of sounds.... these things do not suggest 'improved overall literacy' to me.

Jerry J. Fortin · May 13, 2009

Overall literacy has improved?
I can't agree with that at all. Perhaps reduced expectations have made standards easier to achieve...

Anecdotally... my own children hated having me review their homework, since I was the only person they dealt with who demanded accurate spelling, decent grammar, and defensible punctuation.

The number of young people I've dealt with- my childrens peers and associates, friends and neighbours- whose literacy skills were poor to non-existent, convinces me that there is something seriously wrong with the way good old readin' and writin' are being presented. When a young woman, upon recieving her high school diploma, enrols in a library-offered basic literacy program; when a 15 year old baby-sitter can't read a story to a toddler; when I am begged for my services as a tutor for a grade 7 student because he can't read any of his textbooks; when it comes as an epiphany to the 8-year-olds I'm helping that letters are actually representatiions of sounds.... these things do not suggest 'improved overall literacy' to me.

My two cents worth is that the system of public education is not a bad thing. In fact, I believe it to be a good thing. Can it take a little upgrading? Sure it can, but please keep in mind that the cost of doing so is already very high. If we decide to "fix" the system it will coast a lot of money. Having said that, I do believe that it is an investment worth making.

madmax · May 13, 2009

School Boards trustees in Ontairo have NO input. They are a waste of time and money. A group of people elected to chickennod to government decisions. To pretend to be part of a process.

Ontario Schools have been destroyed since the Mike Harris era. They have never found their way back to teaching. The input comes from higher ups, how decide that computers skills are more important then being able to spell or write. Cursive in newspeak.

Kids are quick learners, pick up the technological gadgets faster then most adults. I have yet to find the "Principals' that Wild BIll speaks of where they don't know how to use a computer. I find that very very hard to believe. So little is not done without the computer in a school system. Schools believe that every student has a computer at home and internet. I find these assumptions disgusting and arrogant. It would be great if it were true. I have seen kids crying because a hand coloured document should have been done with a colour printer. The project was completed and the child had no access outside of school for such technology, let alone afford colour ink cartridges. What the hell is our education system thinking. Certainly not about the life situation of every student.

Harris created a bunch of baby sitters instead of teachers, and McGuinty has given them the bottle.

However, teaching "technology" is the least of our problems. Students coming in with Cell phones and text messaging throughout class is problematic. Yes, Technology brings many new problems. Today in Technology classes, Teachers cannot remove the cell phone from the students possession. They can ask them to turn it off. Isn't that nice.

The Rules don't come from the Unions, they come top down from the Provincial Government. They need to come bottom up with parental input.

Ain't gonna happen.

The facilities in shools today are alot better then in my era.

And When Wild Bill went to school, indoor toilets didn't exist yet. He was tipping outhouses

Muddy · May 13, 2009

The incompetence started long before Harris , I witnessed the never fail policy in the 60`s. and 70`s. Blaming Harris is a bugaboo catch all for the left. Teachers could have fought with their Union for educating our children .Instead they fought for their own needs first. Teaching is no longer a calling as it once was.

Wild Bill · May 13, 2009

I have yet to find the "Principals' that Wild BIll speaks of where they don't know how to use a computer. I find that very very hard to believe. So little is not done without the computer in a school system.

Would you like their names?

BubberMiley · May 15, 2009

Overall literacy has improved?
I can't agree with that at all. Perhaps reduced expectations have made standards easier to achieve...

That’s a lot of anecdotal information that can easily give you a skewed picture of the overall reality. While there are no data (that I know of) that accurately compare reading levels from, say, 70 years ago to now, there are data that compare Canada to other countries in the world today. In that regard, we’re doing okay, which is probably an indication that our teachers and school boards and departments of education are making good use of the scarce resources we give them.

http://www4.hrsdc.gc.ca/[email protected]?iid=81#M_4

And in terms of reading levels in the old days, sometimes I can’t believe how long they gave people to read simple lines of dialogue in silent movies. I’ll have read it six times already before they move on. And I wouldn’t be surprised if the text-messaging kids of today are even faster at reading than I am. They are certainly asked to process a lot more information in a much shorter time than I had to do when I was a kid.

Edited May 15, 2009 by BubberMiley