Rantisi Killed

[remrem]

It is just in that Rantisi has been killed in Gaza City. His car was booby trapped or missiles were fired at the vehicle, sources haven't confirmed yet. This is just a few weeks after Sheik Yassin the former leader of Hamas was killed. This is just one more step in Israel's complete disregard of reality and the continuing unilateralism that I'm sure will just lead to a continuing of oppression and terror, mostly started by Israel. The fact that so many Palestinian civilians have been killed and wounded in the Occupied Territories is the problem. With U.S. backing Israel has the green light to go in and destroy and run over everything in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. But this is just another day in the life of occupation by and oppressive force.

Remi

[KrustyKidd]

I thought Hamas was a terrorist organisation. Scince you feel it is not, what type of organisation is it?

[d4dev]

What makes you feel that Hamas is a terrorist organization? Because the US and Israel say so?

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear all,

The standard definition of terrorism is: (Party A has a problem with Party . Party A attacks Party C in the hopes that Party C will influence Party B to cease conflict with, submit to, or surrender to Party A.

I should think that Hamas fits this description.

Terror takes many forms, but the standard seems to be fear, specifically the fear of random death. Britain in WWII, under Arthur 'Bomber' Harris, thought that 'terror bombing', or the mass random killing of civilians, would cause the German people to cease abetting the Nazi war machine. He was wrong. Just as Osama, Yassin, Rantisi, Uzi Landau and Sharon are/were wrong.

[d4dev]

The standard definition of terrorism is: (Party A has a problem with Party . Party A attacks Party C in the hopes that Party C will influence Party B to cease conflict with, submit to, or surrender to Party A.

That terrorist definition would then include the US' invasion of Iraq, Israel's subjugation of the Palestinians, the Cold War, probably every conflict in the world today and in the past.

[Sully]

Hmmmm whats makes the sensible people of this world think that Hamas is a terrorist organization?

Hmmmmm tough one there, I can really not think of anything other than the taking credit, time and time again for the suicide bombings of innocent Israeli women and children.

How silly of me thats really nothing isn't it...........

Oh and I mean how dare we label people who hijack commercial airliners terrorists, all they really want to do is live out their life's dream of becoming a "Steward." Even for those few days of scaring innocent passengers s!@tless, they got to feel what it was like to live a dream.

Sounds stupid doesn't it, YES I KNOW, just like many things on this thread.

[d4dev]

Hmmmmm tough one there, I can really not think of anything other than the taking credit, time and time again for the suicide bombings of innocent Israeli women and children.

Then how about killing of little children and civilians by the Israeli army?

Oh and I mean how dare we label people who hijack commercial airliners terrorists, all they really want to do is live out their life's dream of becoming a "Steward." Even for those few days of scaring innocent passengers s!@tless, they got to feel what it was like to live a dream.

Hamas hijacking a commercial airline? When did that happen? In your dreams?

Sounds stupid doesn't it, YES I KNOW, just like many things on this thread.

Ummm, yes, that about sums it up.

[Sully]

Then how about killing of little children and civilians by the Israeli army?

Hmmmm well lets point out some facts here.

1.) Israeli's are not DIRECTLY targeting INNOCENT women and children, unlike the HAMAS.

2.) Unfortunately you cannot see that the tactics that HAMAS and many other terrorists employ. They locate their operations in the middle of neighbourhoods and citizens in order to spoil an attack from Israel. Thankfully that does not work and unfortunately innocent people will pay the price. Of course the Palestinians do garner support from people like you, cause you only see their side in the fight, you see what they want to see. "Neighbourhoods Attacked" aka Hamas base of operations that they knowingly located in areas of numerous citizens.

3.) How many times have the strikes by the Israeli's resulted in the death of Hamas leaders, lots and that means they are getting results and have every right as a sovereign nation to protect themselves and prevent future attacks.

Why don't you go hang out at an Israeli cafe for the afternoon, we will see how enjoyable that cup of coffee is, who knows you could be the next target.

Hamas hijacking a commercial airline? When did that happen? In your dreams?

Hmmmmm when did I ever mention Hamas hijacking airlines, did I miss something here!!!!!!

Ummm, yes, that about sums it up.

It does sum it up, if you cannot call Hamas a terrorist organization (very silly if you cannot) then what would you call people who hijack planes. I am very curious!!!!

[Black Dog]

1.) Israeli's are not DIRECTLY targeting INNOCENT women and children, unlike the HAMAS

No they are INDIRECTLY targeting INNOCENT women

and children by carrying out operations that will inevitably result in civilian deaths.

2.) Unfortunately you cannot see that the tactics that HAMAS and many other terrorists employ. They locate their operations in the middle of neighbourhoods and citizens in order to spoil an attack from Israel. Thankfully that does not work and unfortunately innocent people will pay the price. Of course the Palestinians do garner support from people like you, cause you only see their side in the fight, you see what they want to see. "Neighbourhoods Attacked" aka Hamas base of operations that they knowingly located in areas of numerous citizens.

WTF do you expect? that they'll set up in the middle of a field with a big sign saying "missles go here?" "Hamas base of operations"? Like traffic and apartments buildings?

3.) How many times have the strikes by the Israeli's resulted in the death of Hamas leaders, lots and that means they are getting results and have every right as a sovereign nation to protect themselves and prevent future attacks.

First, the (illegal) assasinations tend to result in large numbers of civilian casualties. Even if they do accomplish their objective of killing Hamas leadership, the inevitable civilian casualties caused by the IOF's heavy handed tactics feed anti-Israel sentiment and push more people to groups like Hamas.

The simple fact that the number of Israeli deaths on Sharon and Likud's watch have far exceeded the number of Israeli deaths in the previous 35 years seems to indicate the repressive and heavy-handed tactics aren't working.

Why don't you go hang out at an Israeli cafe for the afternoon, we will see how enjoyable that cup of coffee is, who knows you could be the next target.

Sure. But first, why don't you hang out in a Ramallah cafe, assuming you can get through the check points, past the wall, avoid the bulldozers destroying homes. And make sure you steer clear of any wheelchair bound septegenarians, lest a helicopter gunship launch rockets to take out such a dangerous target.

[Sully]

No they are INDIRECTLY targeting INNOCENT women and children by carrying out operations that will inevitably result in civilian deaths.

No s#$t we know this already, but Palestinians can thank their leaders for the killing of innocents. Israel's intentions are not to kill innocent, but it will happen. In that part of the world its C'est la vie. Sad but true.

WTF do you expect? that they'll set up in the middle of a field with a big sign saying "missles go here?" "Hamas base of operations"? Like traffic and apartments buildings?

Yes I expect that they would have billboards and men flaggin the choppers down. So blame the Hamas for locating their operations there. I know you would love the Israeli's to just take attack after attack and sit idle, but I am all for supporting the Israelis in retaliating harder at defined targets.

First, the (illegal) assasinations tend to result in large numbers of civilian casualties. Even if they do accomplish their objective of killing Hamas leadership, the inevitable civilian casualties caused by the IOF's heavy handed tactics feed anti-Israel sentiment and push more people to groups like Hamas.

The simple fact that the number of Israeli deaths on Sharon and Likud's watch have far exceeded the number of Israeli deaths in the previous 35 years seems to indicate the repressive and heavy-handed tactics aren't working.

Illegal as deemed by who the UN, hahah the UN is a joke when it comes to dealing with world issues, they are a figure head with no real power. Canada went in illegally to former Yugoslavia, we were really wrong to, not at all. The UN already has too much blood on its hands to condemn any action of Israel (Rwanda)

Do you realize that Hamas is not interested in a peaceful settlement with the Israeli's they want all Israeli's pushed into the sea and gone for good. Do you really think that many Palestinians were on the fence about possibly supporting Israel, hahahahah. Hate for Israel is rampant among people over there, killing their muderous leaders is the only thing they can do when everyone wants them dead.

Sure. But first, why don't you hang out in a Ramallah cafe, assuming you can get through the check points, past the wall, avoid the bulldozers destroying homes. And make sure you steer clear of any wheelchair bound septegenarians, lest a helicopter gunship launch rockets to take out such a dangerous target.

No thanks, that part of the world loves violence, and personally thats not my thing. No I do not want to be seated in front of a weapons cache that fronts as a peaceful Ramullah cafe. I do not want to be blown to bits when the Israeli's come to exterminate vermin and bombs that are to be used against them in the future. Sorry I ll take trips to the Caribbean first. Palestine is not on my top ten vacation spots.

[d4dev]

Sully, I suggest you read a little bit about Israel's history. That's all I can say. You say that Palestinians hate Israel, and that's obvious. Israel was carved out forcibly from Arab land. Israel does not have a right to exist. At the time of the creation of Israel, and agreement was reached in which Palestinians were supposed to have their separate government, and the extent of the land that they would get was far more than what they are getting now. Israel later backtracked on all those agreements, tried to resettle the Palestinians by force, barricaded their lands, and killed their people.

In my opinion, Hamas is not a terrorist organization, it is a freedom movement.

We have been fed loads of Western propaganda all our lives. Every time a suicide bombing occurs, the news is flashed all over the media. But not so when Israeli soldiers kill a child, or maim a civilian.

I urge you to find out the facts of the matter for yourself. Instead of relying on tv, search the internet and you will find things you never imagined would be true.

[Sully]

Thanks for the History lesson but do realize that the Hebrew people were the first to settle that area many many many many years ago, before Arabs. Looks like you need to look through your history books. I mean I am no Biblical Scholar or preacher here, but I do know that Bible is roughly 2000 years old and the Hebrew, Jewish people were there in those lands well before the Arabs.

Secondly I am glad to see that you think that Hamas is a group of freedom fighters thats wonderful, I would love for you to state the Ideological and Philosophical basis for their founding please. Let all of us on this board watch you post those. Hey no sugar coating it either. I mean I can see a group who is hell bent on destroying the Jewish people until they are completely eliminated, yes thats a wonderful group. They got my support oh, and yes you have to love those suicide bombings they do too, I mean they practically wrote the book on those. Great work Hamas you bunch of freedom fighters guys.

[d4dev]

Thanks for the History lesson but do realize that the Hebrew people were the first to settle that area many many many many years ago, before Arabs. Looks like you need to look through your history books. I mean I am no Biblical Scholar or preacher here, but I do know that Bible is roughly 2000 years old and the Hebrew, Jewish people were there in those lands well before the Arabs.

That is no reason why Arabs should be forcibly made to give up their lands to create Israel. And your post does not make sense anyway.

Because Hebrews were the first to settle there, you are advocating that Israel has a right to exist? That's laughable. As laughable as saying that Canadians/Americans should be evicted from North America and the land be handed over to the natives because they were the first to settle there.

[Sully]

That is no reason why Arabs should be forcibly made to give up their lands to create Israel. And your post does not make sense anyway.

Because Hebrews were the first to settle there, you are advocating that Israel has a right to exist? That's laughable. As laughable as saying that Canadians/Americans should be evicted from North America and the land be handed over to the natives because they were the first to settle there.

Here I ll explain it to you, I would think it would be great if those two groups could get along, they won't thats a fact of life. You brought up the historical facts and I am explaining to you that just like you think the Palestinians have a right to live there, I advocate the same for the Israelis. You cannot even compare the issue of Native Americans to that conflict over there.

As for your support of Hamas (as you see them Freedom Fighters), I am asking you to enlighten us with their background, what is that they believe, their ideologes and goals. I want you to show people on this board what it is that you support. I know that Hamas is determined to make sure there is no peace, that there will never be an Israeli state, they will coerce their own children to suicide bomb, they will continue to suicide bomb.

Here is a clear depiction of Hamas thinking:

Hamas offers believers a clear vision of a Palestinian state from the Mediterranean Sea to the Jordan River, its way of life grounded in the values and principles of Islam. Hamas uses antiquated European anti-Semitic terminology to describe the Jews and Israel and expects to fully eliminate them from the Middle East by violent means.

[August1991]

Sully, I'll answer your post in another thread.

This is not because I dislike this thread but because its name "Rantisi Killed" is misleading. The issue is much more serious.

[d4dev]

Here I ll explain it to you, I would think it would be great if those two groups could get along, they won't thats a fact of life. You brought up the historical facts and I am explaining to you that just like you think the Palestinians have a right to live there, I advocate the same for the Israelis. You cannot even compare the issue of Native Americans to that conflict over there.

Why can't we compare North America to the middle east? Because you say so?

As for your support of Hamas (as you see them Freedom Fighters), I am asking you to enlighten us with their background, what is that they believe, their ideologes and goals. I want you to show people on this board what it is that you support. I know that Hamas is determined to make sure there is no peace, that there will never be an Israeli state, they will coerce their own children to suicide bomb, they will continue to suicide bomb.

It's very simple, Sully. Hamas wants their land back. They want to have their own independant country, and refuse to recognise the state of Israel.

Compare the situation to the communist revolution in China/Russia, albeit with a different ideology. The only difference is that the Chinese and the Russians were fighting against their own countrymen, whereas Hamas considers Israeli Jews to be foreigners who have occupied their land.

Here is a clear depiction of Hamas thinking:

Hamas offers believers a clear vision of a Palestinian state from the Mediterranean Sea to the Jordan River, its way of life grounded in the values and principles of Islam. Hamas uses antiquated European anti-Semitic terminology to describe the Jews and Israel and expects to fully eliminate them from the Middle East by violent means.

You now why it's anti-semitic? Because Israel is a Jewish state. If Israel was a Christian or a Buddhist state, Hamas would have been anti-Christian or anti-Buddhist.

Here, religion is not important. The hate is country specific, not religion specific. What is important is that Arab land was forcibly confiscated and a new state carved out of it.

Obviously, it was the design of the British to create a puppet state in the middle east so that they could intervene there whenever they wanted to. It was also to ensure a steady supply of oil. It was to ensure that Arab countries never become strong, to keep them occupied with regional strife that would sap their energies. The British have done this all over the world, in all their colonies. We have the Israeli question, Iraq which was divided to create Kuwait, India which was partioned into Pakistan....the list could go on.

It was an imperialistic decision that formed Israel, one that should have no place in the modern world.

[Sully]

Why can't we compare North America to the middle east? Because you say so?

No not because I say, its just simply looking at the situations and seeing that it would be comparing apples to oranges.

Here are a few glaring differences:

1.) Religion

2.) Scope of the war

3.) History

4.) Killing is not rampant here in N/A when fighting over land

5.) The number of people involved (Millions)

6.) Lack of authority and control on one side of the equation

7.) Different factions within each group have their own agendas and will not compromise until those agenda are completed.

8.) Each group has religious zealots

the list can go on and on.......

It's very simple, Sully. Hamas wants their land back. They want to have their own independant country, and refuse to recognise the state of Israel.

Compare the situation to the communist revolution in China/Russia, albeit with a different ideology. The only difference is that the Chinese and the Russians were fighting against their own countrymen, whereas Hamas considers Israeli Jews to be foreigners who have occupied their land.

Hey I am not doubting they want what they believe to be their land back. I just find it strange that you view Hamas as a group of freedom fighters, rather that what they truly are. But then would you agree with aboriginals performing suicide bombings here is North America in order to reclaim their land, its easy for us so far removed from the situation to pass judgement. But I know that the targeting of innocent people is wrong there as it would be wrong here. Do you support Hamas and all they stand for?

You now why it's anti-semitic? Because Israel is a Jewish state. If Israel was a Christian or a Buddhist state, Hamas would have been anti-Christian or anti-Buddhist.

Here, religion is not important. The hate is country specific, not religion specific. What is important is that Arab land was forcibly confiscated and a new state carved out of it.

Are you serious when you say religion is not important? Wow thats naive. I wish that were the case but I am sure if religion was not an issue then there would be peace as unfortunate as that sounds. Yes you are right they would hate any religion, because of what is dictated by their leaders perverted view of their religion. But the vast majority of Muslims have a distaste for Jewish people, this view is not isolated to Palestine. Go perform a survey in Muslim countries see what reaction you get by asking the question "As a Muslim what are your views of the Jewish people", see if you make it out alive for asking that question. I mean really which side do you think that Middle Eastern countries support, Israel or Palestine? Do we even need to answer that one.

Why do you think that Mel Gibsons movie has been breaking box office records over in those areas its allowed to play. Because they like that the movie is "suppose" to be anti-semitic because of all the hoop-la before its release. I mean these places were not suppose to allow a movie with a prophet in it to be shown on the silver screen, hmmmm looks like they let that one slide, I wonder why?

Without a doubt the purpose of the Bristish Empire was to control the wealth of those places to benefit England. Yes those are facts, but that was then this is now. Tell me what is so beneficial to setting up Israel. Puppet state eh! Every country has their hands in the Middle East. Ever wonder why Germany, France and Russia vehemently opposed the war in Iraq. Yup you guessed it France, Russia and Germany had their companies inside Iraq making money. Wow lucky for us the Europeans are above all those simple issues of wealth and make decisions solely on sound principles.

I am not necessarily agreeing with the way Israel was carved out the existing land, but I have no problem with their existence, they are here now and I support them.

[August1991]

Sully, my answers are next door.