Evolution classes optional under proposed Alberta law

[g_bambino]

[Y]our side is making the claim there are NO physical factors involved in someone being a homosexual, so you have to prove that there are no physical causes of same-sex attractions to justify a position of discrimination against gays, and psychotherapies like reversion therapy, that is supposed to turn gays straight.....in theory, that is.

My side? Okay, you are clearly not giving your full attention to what I'm saying, seeing as you believe I've adopted the very "my side and your side" mentality that I admonish. Anyone can use anything to discriminate, if they so choose to; if homosexual tendencies are psychological, they can be altered with therapy, if they are biological, they can be altered with drugs. Irrelevant, however, to my point: preaching that your version of the truth is the truth when evidence puts that veracity at least in doubt is a ridiculous thing to do, whether that be the supposed truth about sexual orientation or about the origin of all life, and it is hypocritical for one group to criticise the other for doing the exact same thing. More open-minded people, please, and less zealotry, from all corners.

[WIP]

My side? Okay, you are clearly not giving your full attention to what I'm saying, seeing as you believe I've adopted the very "my side and your side" mentality that I admonish.

You are arguing for the right to teach that homosexuality is 100% choice of aberrant sexual behaviour, and if you're defending their right to do so, I'm going to continue to identify them as your side, since you choose to come to their defense. I'm on the side of those who say that sexual orientation has many physical factors in its makeup, and that people who consider themselves to be gay, should be free to choose same-sex partners without facing abuse, and will be happier if they are able to live life in the way that feels natural for them. So, I'm not gay, but I'm taking their side in this argument, so feel free to call them "my side."

Anyone can use anything to discriminate, if they so choose to; if homosexual tendencies are psychological, they can be altered with therapy, if they are biological, they can be altered with drugs.

Hold on there a minute! If psychotherapy had such a great track record in the first place, antidepressant and antipsychotic drugs would have never been invented; and many gay men and women are happy, creative and productive members of society, so if such a thing as drugs to change sexual orientation are invented, why would you assume that it would be a good idea to give homosexuals drugs to turn them straight?

Irrelevant, however, to my point: preaching that your version of the truth is the truth when evidence puts that veracity at least in doubt is a ridiculous thing to do, whether that be the supposed truth about sexual orientation or about the origin of all life, and it is hypocritical for one group to criticise the other for doing the exact same thing. More open-minded people, please, and less zealotry, from all corners.

I am not open minded about creationism, and likewise, I am not open-minded about teaching that gay or bisexual behaviour is caused 100% by psychological factors. I feel no need to be open-minded to ideas that are not supported by evidence, and are instead contrary to the evidence available!

[g_bambino]

You are arguing for the right to teach that homosexuality is 100% choice of aberrant sexual behaviour...

No.

[Smallc]

A controversial new bill does not give Alberta parents the right to pull their children out of science classes when evolution is discussed, according to Lindsay Blackett, the provincial minister responsible for human rights.

New rules buried in a proposed amendment to Alberta's human rights legislation that extends rights to homosexuals would require schools to notify parents in advance of "subject-matter that deals explicitly with religion, sexuality or sexual orientation." Parents can then ask for their child to be excluded from the discussion.

Premier Ed Stelmach told reporters last week that the provision could be used to pull students out of classes dealing with evolution if parents preferred their kids be taught what's in the Bible instead.

"The parents would have the opportunity to make that choice," he said.

But in an interview with CBC News Monday, Blackett said he has gone through the draft bill and talked to staff in the education and justice departments and concluded that religious beliefs aren't covered.

Proposed Alberta law doesn't make evolution classes optional: minister

Thank God.

Edited May 4, 2009 by Smallc

[catterinax]

Typically, schools teach the latest on any given subject. They also teach students to think critically and decide for themselves what they believe. I don't think children should be "shielded" from any school of thought. Parents can teach their values and also teach their children that others may hold different beliefs / opinions.

[Oleg Bach]

Typically, schools teach the latest on any given subject. They also teach students to think critically and decide for themselves what they believe. I don't think children should be "shielded" from any school of thought. Parents can teach their values and also teach their children that others may hold different beliefs / opinions.

Religious leaders are not up to speed when it comes to creationism - or evolutionism...Scientific types really have not got a graspe on ancient religious rightings....and are so arrogant and prejudice that they do not see that evolution and creation is the same thing...students need highly developed teachers to teach these two concepts - NO SUCH TEACHERS EXIST....either way to teach creationism and evolution ....no matter what the student will be short changed and come out stupid in these regards.

[lictor616]

Religious leaders are not up to speed when it comes to creationism - or evolutionism...Scientific types really have not got a graspe on ancient religious rightings....and are so arrogant and prejudice that they do not see that evolution and creation is the same thing...students need highly developed teachers to teach these two concepts - NO SUCH TEACHERS EXIST....either way to teach creationism and evolution ....no matter what the student will be short changed and come out stupid in these regards.

do us a favor and smoke opium alone in your basement...

stop spewing noisome garbage to those rational "evolutionists" (!!!) among us... sit down quietly and keep your insolent and impudent "creation" cough** ""science"" cough cough** to yourself and other crazed dervishes...

[wyly]

As long as there's provision to not pull kids out against their will, I'm OK. Can't legislate people to be smart and educated no more than to not be stupid. To everybody, their due.

I hope only very few zealots would actually follow, but if not, so be it. Alberta's work force would be less educated and competitive in the modern economy (creative biotechnology, anyone?), so guess we'll have to pick up the slack here in Ontario and Quebec. Ironically, also kind of "natural selection"...

I know that are Universities that will not accept kids into science based programs if they have graduated from Christian academies that deny evolution...so any parent that pulls their kids out takes their chances with that decision...

[geoffrey]

Parents that keep their kids from learning in order to preserve some kind of control over their intellectual development (god forbid the kid is smarter than the parents) should be jailed. Parents shouldn't be able to force their children away from enlightened thinking and towards backwards stupidity.

Kids have more rights themselves than parents have over them. Every kid has the right to a first class education. Not one that is controlled by ignorant rednecks.

You see this kind of ignorance all the time out West, especially here in Calgary. Often I laugh at these people who think they are all so big city, but have their head buried in the Bible all day. While I admire our culture for alot of conservative (non-religious) values out here, the amount of igorance is gigantic.

Not suprised to see this kind of thing in this province.

[wyly]

You see this kind of ignorance all the time out West, especially here in Calgary. Often I laugh at these people who think they are all so big city, but have their head buried in the Bible all day. While I admire our culture for alot of conservative (non-religious) values out here, the amount of igorance is gigantic.

Not suprised to see this kind of thing in this province.

I think it's unique to Alberta, I've spent time in BC and lived in Sask for many years and these ideas just wouldn't be accepted there.

[Smallc]

Well it certainly wouldn't fly in Winnipeg (and so by extension, Manitoba).

[GostHacked]

Screw it, let's make all subjects optional then.

[wyly]

Screw it, let's make all subjects optional then.

well that should ease the overcrowding in Universities...just think of all the creationist and ID puppies who'll fail entrance requirements...I like it....

[Hydraboss]

I know that are Universities that will not accept kids into science based programs if they have graduated from Christian academies that deny evolution...so any parent that pulls their kids out takes their chances with that decision...

Please supply a cite for this. I really want to see how they make that work.

Thanks.

[Smallc]

I'm sorry, but if you don't have biological sciences, you won't be getting into many programs at uiniversity.

[wyly]

Please supply a cite for this. I really want to see how they make that work.

Thanks.

what never attended University?...if a student's course/credit load does not include needed prerequisites for admittance you don't get in...creationism/ID is not accepted as a science prerequisite at any Canadian University, possibly at a Christian academy but then their degree won't be worth much on graduation...

[Hydraboss]

I'm sorry, but if you don't have biological sciences, you won't be getting into many programs at uiniversity.

Oh, I'm well aware of entrance requirements. I'm looking specifically for a cite that shows schools that publish they "will not accept kids into science based programs if they have graduated from Christian academies that deny evolution".

Hell of a statement; I just want to see proof. Cause, a proof is a proof you know.

[Smallc]

Oh, ok, just a misunderstanding then.

[wyly]

Oh, I'm well aware of entrance requirements. I'm looking specifically for a cite that shows schools that publish they "will not accept kids into science based programs if they have graduated from Christian academies that deny evolution".

Hell of a statement; I just want to see proof. Cause, a proof is a proof you know.

"hell of a statement" hardly,it's common practice...I know a very bright graduate of a high school IB program that was refused entry into the College Medicine untill she passed the standard Alberta English 30 course, the IB English 30 was considered insufficient(she upgraded)....if a students prerequiste course doesn't meet the minimum standards you simply don't qualify...if the student doesn't have math 30 forget about any science related degree, don't have Bio 30(which includes TOE) forget about any of the biological sciences...

[Hydraboss]

"hell of a statement" hardly,it's common practice...I know a very bright graduate of a high school IB program that was refused entry into the College Medicine untill she passed the standard Alberta English 30 course, the IB English 30 was considered insufficient(she upgraded)....if a students prerequiste course doesn't meet the minimum standards you simply don't qualify...if the student doesn't have math 30 forget about any science related degree, don't have Bio 30(which includes TOE) forget about any of the biological sciences...

Yup. Hell of a statement.

Of course, since it's such common practice, it shouldn't take you but a second or two to supply a link to some proof. Again, I am well aware of the requirement for 30-level English, math and biology.

Where, again, does it list as a precautionary statement to prerequisite acceptance the

I know that are Universities that will not accept kids into science based programs if they have graduated from Christian academies that deny evolution...so any parent that pulls their kids out takes their chances with that decision...

?????????????????????

While you're at it, would you please give a couple of examples of "Christian academies that deny evolution"? I'm not aware of any, so your help is greatly appreciated.

U of Alberta Science

...can't seem to find anything that backs up your statement.

[wyly]

Of course, since it's such common practice, it shouldn't take you but a second or two to supply a link to some proof. Again, I am well aware of the requirement for 30-level English, math and biology.

U of Alberta Science

...can't seem to find anything that backs up your statement.

you can't find anything because you don't comprehend well apparently.. you say you're aware of the prerequisites for University based on Provincial High School Achievement standards including biology but that means nothing to you? are you being deliberately obtuse? ...

If courses taken at an academy do not meet Provincial standards they will not be accepted as meeting the Admission Criteria of that University. If the student is entering a field of study that does not require that particular criteria it may not matter, chemistry or physics may be substituted for Bio 30...Bio 30 includes TOE and genetics, if a student can get an acceptable grade in a Provicial Exam in Bio 30 denying TOE and genetics or give the correct answers even though he/she doesn't believe it they may get through...but it's unlikey they'll get past a Bio or Archy Prof... If a student is attending an Academy that does not teach a Provincially accepted Bio 30 class they need to upgrade.

While you're at it, would you please give a couple of examples of "Christian academies that deny evolution"? I'm not aware of any, so your help is greatly appreciated.

Christian ID/Creatioinism is not TOE

The following schools accept and teach a literal Genesis - including a six 24-hour day Creation, no death before sin, a global Flood and a young Earth.

Briercrest College and Seminary, Caronport SK

Canadian Union College, College Heights, AB

Historic Baptist Bible College and Seminary, Toronto, Ontario,

Kingston Bible College, Kingston, Nova Scotia

New Brunswick Bible Institute,

Prairie Bible Institute (College and Seminary), Three Hills, AB

not listed are a number of Seventh Day Adventists Acdemies which teach creationism...and likely many more that I can't be bothered to look for...

[Hydraboss]

you can't find anything because you don't comprehend well apparently.. you say you're aware of the prerequisites for University based on Provincial High School Achievement standards including biology but that means nothing to you? are you being deliberately obtuse? ...

If courses taken at an academy do not meet Provincial standards they will not be accepted as meeting the Admission Criteria of that University. If the student is entering a field of study that does not require that particular criteria it may not matter, chemistry or physics may be substituted for Bio 30...Bio 30 includes TOE and genetics, if a student can get an acceptable grade in a Provicial Exam in Bio 30 denying TOE and genetics or give the correct answers even though he/she doesn't believe it they may get through...but it's unlikey they'll get past a Bio or Archy Prof... If a student is attending an Academy that does not teach a Provincially accepted Bio 30 class they need to upgrade.

Christian ID/Creatioinism is not TOE

not listed are a number of Seventh Day Adventists Acdemies which teach creationism...and likely many more that I can't be bothered to look for...

Thank you for all your hard work looking up this information. Would you please:

1) Provide a link to any post-secondary institution that makes reference to the inadmissablity of any particular biology course in any secondary institution (perhaps a program like pre-med or microbiology).

2) Provide a proper link to information where these schools state that they will not meet admission criteria (meaning that their course curriculumn does not meet provincial guidelines and therefore post-secondary requirements).

3) Provide a link to where you found the information (list of schools) that do not meet entrance requirements for post-secondary institutions.

Thanks again.

[Wild Bill]

Thank you for all your hard work looking up this information.

While you're looking that up, you might consider that the chances of someone who denies TOE getting a JOB in the biological sciences is about as likely as someone getting a job as an accountant yet never took any math!

That's the problem with fundamentalist religious doctrines contradicting science. In most scientific areas, the fundamentalist explanations won't work! Try to develop a new flu vaccine without using evolutionist principles and see how far you get.

Moreover, try to inspire someone enough to hire you! Any scientist would have zero confidence that you would be of any use as an employee.

[wyly]

While you're looking that up, you might consider that the chances of someone who denies TOE getting a JOB in the biological sciences is about as likely as someone getting a job as an accountant yet never took any math!

That's the problem with fundamentalist religious doctrines contradicting science. In most scientific areas, the fundamentalist explanations won't work! Try to develop a new flu vaccine without using evolutionist principles and see how far you get.

Moreover, try to inspire someone enough to hire you! Any scientist would have zero confidence that you would be of any use as an employee.

ya...he/she can look up their own links...prerequiste courses needed for University entrance are on any Uni website, grading is done by Provincial Standard Exams, if a graduate does not pass those examinations they don't get in, to pass those exams the school must cover the proper material and if said required materials are omitted for religious or other reasons, acceptance becomes difficult, selective or impossible...needless to say someone who can't comprehend something as simple as that will not be going to University...

Edited May 27, 2009 by wyly

[ToadBrother]

I think it's unique to Alberta, I've spent time in BC and lived in Sask for many years and these ideas just wouldn't be accepted there.

What's really ironic is that Creationism was explicitly rejected here in BC by the Socred government of Bill Vanderzalm, a guy of very distinctly social and religious conservative views.