KrustyKidd Posted April 27, 2009 Report Share Posted April 27, 2009 Recognizing that Israel, despite the 'he said she said' historical 'he persecuted she stole' crap going back thousands of years, is not going anywhere. It is here to stay and, will use it's superior military force to stop any threat to it's existance. Hence, to use force against it to attempt to sway their resolve is meaningless and, as recently observed in Gaza, has ramifications for those that do and, those who support those who do. If they have to, they will live a life of western first world peoples while Palestinians hate from behind their fourth world political and physical wall. Whether you think that is right or wrong is meaningless as that is the way it is and, will be until something changes for Israel. They will not compromise their security, that is a fact so, any solution must have that security as it's cornerstone. The following is a hard plan that I believe is doable and, has no bullshit clauses and, has prods for both sides to make their peace quickly rather than slowly. It also carries penalties for both sides if they commit unnecessary or, non defensive acts against the other. In short, it has money and land involved from day one. My plan Palestinians elect a government that recognizes Israels right to exist in peace under the UN resolution of 1948 and then, negotiations take place with the following as the goal - to bring about a Palestinian state at peace with Israel as per those boundaries.The UN takes trust of those lands not occupied by Palestinians and, those with Israelis settlers on them begin to pay rent to the UN leaving all in place and taking monies from the rent of that land hold it in trust 50/50 for each party and, while trust is being built over the period of decades returns those lands to Palestinians bit by bit according to agreed upon benchmarks and, withdraws some lands completely off the table if there are transgressions by Palestinians and, takes the funds and awards them to Palestinians if Israel is the culprit. Fifty years from now they could be at permanent peace and all rich. In any case, the accounting will require cooperation that is without precedent and, may even bring about a team effort in itself that leads to a framework of cooperation in itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rue Posted April 27, 2009 Report Share Posted April 27, 2009 I found your response garbled and could not follow it. I am not sure what point you were trying to make. What I can tell you is that when 2 parties conflict, it is irrational and illogical to think you can achieve conflict by asking one party to cease to exist and simply give the other party everything it asks for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrustyKidd Posted April 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 27, 2009 I found your response garbled and could not follow it. I am not sure what point you were trying to make.What I can tell you is that when 2 parties conflict, it is irrational and illogical to think you can achieve conflict by asking one party to cease to exist and simply give the other party everything it asks for. Try reading it again as it is all there and even addresses your point about one party not allowing the other to exist. Basically, the UN takes control of the deputed land complete with those who are presently occupying it, and then, turns the entire matter into a financial issue with rewards and penalties for compliance and inadherence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted April 27, 2009 Report Share Posted April 27, 2009 I guess the whole trouble with this plan is that if we look to 1967, it was Nasser deciding more or less at a whim that the UN forces keeping Arabs and Israelis apart had to go...which paved the way for the 6 Day War...which brings us to today's situation. Who is to say they won't do it again at some point? Should the planet reward Arab aggression by bringing the map to the state it was before they attacked? Seriously. Would you?? As well, when Jordan and Egypt gave up claims to Gaza and the West Bank, they more or less left Israel holding the bag re: the Palestinian Arabs. It is disingenuous to think that the defeated party in a war has much say as to what the victorious party does in this situation. It's sort of like Germany dictating terms post WW2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dub Posted April 27, 2009 Report Share Posted April 27, 2009 Palestinians elect a government that recognizes Israels right to exist the PLO recognized israel's right to exist in 1993. you should read up on your history before coming in here with "a plan". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrustyKidd Posted April 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 27, 2009 the PLO recognized israel's right to exist in 1993.you should read up on your history before coming in here with "a plan". The PLO is not the present government of Palestine, Hamas is. Furthermore, Hamas does not recognize Israel's right to exist. You should read up on current events before castigating others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dub Posted April 27, 2009 Report Share Posted April 27, 2009 The PLO is not the present government of Palestine, Hamas is. Furthermore, Hamas does not recognize Israel's right to exist.You should read up on current events before castigating others. this bit of information shows that the palestinians recognizing israel will do nothing. the settlements have continued to increase under every single israeli government whether the palestinians have accepted israel and the UN resolutions or not. your plan sounds fair however, israel would never accept this plan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrustyKidd Posted April 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 this bit of information shows that the palestinians recognizing israel will do nothing.the settlements have continued to increase under every single israeli government whether the palestinians have accepted israel and the UN resolutions or not. They continue until they stop. Few in Israel believe that the Palestinians will ever seriously take peace in hand so, simply carry on with their reality which is that the land is theirs to use until a different reality takes place. While this certainly enrages the Palestinians, they can, at any time, take peace seriously and stop all action which would leave the onus on Israel to stop the settlements. To place the blame on Israel when there is absolutely no reward for them to stop taking land is to go against common sense. The fact that Israel, when in serious negotiations and agreements gives back lands even when settlers have to violently be evicted escapes you. your plan sounds fair however, israel would never accept this plan. My plan is only a method of keeping score once the two sides agree to serious peace. Israel and, some Palestinian leaders in the past have already done so many times before so, your statement is false and betrays your bigotry in this discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rue Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 (edited) Try reading it again as it is all there and even addresses your point about one party not allowing the other to exist. Basically, the UN takes control of the deputed land complete with those who are presently occupying it, and then, turns the entire matter into a financial issue with rewards and penalties for compliance and inadherence. I apologize. I only meant your introductory comments I got lost trying to follow. The plan you mentioned in my humble opinion I believe is an honest attempt to propose a peaceful and fair resolution for both sides. Sorry I did not mean to diss the plan just show confusion over your intro comments. I appreciate your attempt to provide a positive suggestion and one that tries to be balanced and not take sides. Thank you for that. I respect your efforts for doing that. Edited May 4, 2009 by Rue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrustyKidd Posted May 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 I apologize. I only meant your introductory comments I got lost trying to follow. The plan you mentioned in my humble opinion I believe is an honest attempt to propose a peaceful and fair resolution for both sides. Sorry I did not mean to diss the plan just show confusion over your intro comments. I appreciate your attempt to provide a positive suggestion and one that tries to be balanced and not take sides. Thank you for that. I respect your efforts for doing that. And ..........? We don't have to argue to have something to post. I threw this out as an impartial idea, you have no thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 Finally some one is thinking pragmatically! I have always said this..for instance - give the Palistinians what you give to Israel and there would all be peacefull and shopping at Walmart. First you would have to eject and surpress the international arms dealers first - America would not like that - they like it when one brother is poor and fights with the rich brother - that way they get to sell billions in weapons to the rich counterpart.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borg Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 Finally some one is thinking pragmatically! I have always said this..for instance - give the Palistinians what you give to Israel and there would all be peacefull and shopping at Walmart. First you would have to eject and surpress the international arms dealers first - America would not like that - they like it when one brother is poor and fights with the rich brother - that way they get to sell billions in weapons to the rich counterpart.. Shows how little you know. Hamas leadership demands the destruction of Israel. Give them more and it will only get worse Borg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 Shows how little you know.Hamas leadership demands the destruction of Israel. Give them more and it will only get worse Borg Hamas does desire this I am sure...the only power they have over the Palistinians is to issue welfare cheques..remove that power and dependence on Hamas with a meaningful bribe and the people would toss them out...money is a powerful tool and maybe you are just plain cheap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borg Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 Hamas does desire this I am sure...the only power they have over the Palistinians is to issue welfare cheques..remove that power and dependence on Hamas with a meaningful bribe and the people would toss them out...money is a powerful tool and maybe you are just plain cheap. So cheap I squeak - I keep my cash - never liked giving it out to people who do not appreciate it. Especially those who do not work for it. Borg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 So cheap I squeak - I keep my cash - never liked giving it out to people who do not appreciate it. Especially those who do not work for it.Borg You better not be talking about me dear buddy boy...I employ bureacrats..every penny I have I have earned. AND if you are making reference to me - I am very hard working - and you might just be a bit overly conditioned and prejudice---- You would like me if you met me..and you would approve of my life once you understood who and what I am...in the meantime - dignity and honour - not just for you but for me - we all fight for what is right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borg Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 (edited) You better not be talking about me dear buddy boy...I employ bureacrats..every penny I have I have earned. AND if you are making reference to me - I am very hard working - and you might just be a bit overly conditioned and prejudice---- You would like me if you met me..and you would approve of my life once you understood who and what I am...in the meantime - dignity and honour - not just for you but for me - we all fight for what is right. Ah - you take life too seriously - it could end today - enjoy it. Borg Edited May 5, 2009 by Borg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 Ah - you take life too seriously - it could end today - enjoy it.Borg The sun could go out in the next two seconds also - that is a possible. I live each day as if it is my last - now for some entertainment for you - the other night I sat and listened to a CD just recorded by a very hot and beautiful singer - she cooed the whole project into my ear as I sat at the bar - such great affection - It was as if I was in some movie about heaven - I had an angel under each wing...and being kissed from both sides - Borg - I am enjoying myself - just have to make more money - this poverty adventure is boring....I am not done yet - I am just getting started - and yes - I will enjoy again - and YOU --- will wish you were me for a brief moment - I paid my dues to get into heaven on earth.....keep going - once you learn how to live this life - you will have never ending joy - better late than never my friend... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borg Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 (edited) The sun could go out in the next two seconds also - that is a possible. I live each day as if it is my last - now for some entertainment for you - the other night I sat and listened to a CD just recorded by a very hot and beautiful singer - she cooed the whole project into my ear as I sat at the bar - such great affection - It was as if I was in some movie about heaven - I had an angel under each wing...and being kissed from both sides - Borg - I am enjoying myself - just have to make more money - this poverty adventure is boring....I am not done yet - I am just getting started - and yes - I will enjoy again - and YOU --- will wish you were me for a brief moment - I paid my dues to get into heaven on earth.....keep going - once you learn how to live this life - you will have never ending joy - better late than never my friend... One opening for you - never to be repeated. I am sitting on a rock in the middle of the desert. The wind and dust are blowing fairly hard and I am typing on a laptop on top of a spare tire - my signal goes out over the satellite - yes, I am abusing a position for a moment. The guys are laughing up a storm about a joke that was played on someone a day or so ago - I have them all "bedded and fed" and they are happy for the moment. I have a coffee - not a good one but it is fair - a damned good Players cigarette from Canada in my hand. It is nearly 1600 local. There is a gazelle out there at about 400 yards - we debated eating it - but decided it could live through the day. I just had a call from my wife and all is well. The kids are happy and healthy and I am enjoying this moment of peace and calm immensley. Your comment on truth and responsibility from another thread hit me hard - you have no idea. So I throw a little shit now and again to watch the "regulars" and the "Mr. / Mrs. / Ms. Perfects" on this board spin a little bit. It provides me with some diversion. Been here one year and have one more year to go (voluntary extension - reasons to be kept here) - then I am out of here. But today is a good day. So let's kill them all and let God sort it out. Enjoy Borg Edited May 5, 2009 by Borg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 If I was your dad I would drag you home by the ear immediately. Before you spoke I saw all of this in my minds eye - I knew exactly where you were broadcasting from..I saw everything but the eastern deer - kind of you not to eat the thing...got premium smokes do you - and coffee - ? My spirit hovers in protection - don't kill needlessly and don't use the old crusading Popes material "kill them all and let God sort it out" - Get it done and get home....love to you - and don't kill the deer... It will end well - be confident and when you feel doubt - cast it out...protect yourself..that's an order. Thanks - now get home before I come and drag you home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rue Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 (edited) And ..........?We don't have to argue to have something to post. I threw this out as an impartial idea, you have no thoughts? Lol,. hard to believe I have nothing else to say? I have written many posts on the topic. Not much more to say other then that I appreciated your suggestions and basically agree with them. Key Kidd how many kudos do you want? Lol. Seriously, that may be the problem. We should just stop when we try make sense and recognize each side's rights as best we can. Sometimes the best suggestions need to be kept simple. There is plenty of time for the lawyers to move in and draft these lengthy preambles and heretofor wheretofor rambling treaties. Edited May 11, 2009 by Rue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted May 30, 2009 Report Share Posted May 30, 2009 What I can tell you is that when 2 parties conflict, it is irrational and illogical to think you can achieve conflict by asking one party to cease to exist and simply give the other party everything it asks for.Any negotiation must start with the premise that both parties leave the negotiating table alive and well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted May 30, 2009 Report Share Posted May 30, 2009 Any negotiation must start with the premise that both parties leave the negotiating table alive and well. Palistine wants to see the money - and so does north korea...oooh - they are a nasty bunch - and now they got nukes - so we had better cuddle up and send the little fat guy some cash - once he gets relaxed - we can smother him with a real nice red silk pillow.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrustyKidd Posted May 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 30, 2009 Palistine wants to see the money - and so does north korea...oooh - they are a nasty bunch - and now they got nukes - so we had better cuddle up and send the little fat guy some cash - once he gets relaxed - we can smother him with a real nice red silk pillow.. I would say that the hardest part is to actually have somebody to negotiate with that can speak for all. The next is to get them to define exactly what they wish and, what they will provide in return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted May 30, 2009 Report Share Posted May 30, 2009 I would say that the hardest part is to actually have somebody to negotiate with that can speak for all. The next is to get them to define exactly what they wish and, what they will provide in return. You know the major stumbling block with these people is that we made them wait to long - some have been stressed for so long that even their leaders are suffering from a bitter form of mental illness..and they may not be able to reason. A negotiator would have to be old school - these people do not want some half baked girly man - or newly liberated Condi - Rice type - The east finds it an insult - when you send representatives - that are not traditional and honourable....remember when the Americans sent an openly gay diplomat to Iraq? You can't do that - you either send a tradional or no one - I often wondered why the Americans did not take advantage of someone like Palin - simple - attractive - she would have been useful - but no - they want a more sophisticated rep - the east is not about sophistication - it's about meeting them and getting them to love and trust you ...keep it simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrustyKidd Posted May 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 You know the major stumbling block with these people is that we made them wait to long - some have been stressed for so long that even their leaders are suffering from a bitter form of mental illness..and they may not be able to reason. We? Seems to me that the problem is theirs and 'we' can only try to help.As for the leaders, like leaders everywhere, they pay attention to what keeps them iin power, not what makes sense or, will benefit their countries in the long term. If they cannot come to grips with that then it matters not who we send. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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