Doctor assailed for leaving dead man

[jdobbin]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...y/National/home

In a scene that combined tragedy with Monty Python farce, a 77-year-old man in acute respiratory failure turned up at a private medical clinic in Montreal only to be told to wait his turn.

Jean-Jacques Sauvageau waited until his heart stopped and his dentures fell out onto the floor. Even then, the famous doctor who came to tend to him did a cursory exam and didn't try to revive him, leaving him instead before the horrified eyes of fellow patients.

The events were depicted in a report issued yesterday by Quebec coroner Catherine Rudel-Tessier. And the doctor taken to task for his failure to try to resuscitate the patient is private-care crusader Jacques Chaoulli.

This is supposed to be an improvement on public healthcare?

I wonder how this story is being regarded in Quebec?

Edited April 24, 2009 by jdobbin

[Wild Bill]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...y/National/home

This is supposed to be an improvement on public healthcare?

I wonder how this story is being regarded in Quebec itself?

No, this is a story about how ONE private clinic and ONE doctor did a poor job!

If you want, we can google up references to people dying in public hospital emergency rooms. Start with St. Joseph's Hospital in Hamilton, Ontario, if you like.

It is illogical to assume from the actions of ONE doctor and clinic that ALL private clinics would act in this fashion. If we were talking individuals and not clinics you could be accused of racism.

You can't plot a curve from only ONE point!

How would you react if I tarred today's entire Liberal caucus with a brush only deserved by Hedy Fry?

Edited April 23, 2009 by Wild Bill

[segnosaur]

In a scene that combined tragedy with Monty Python farce, a 77-year-old man in acute respiratory failure turned up at a private medical clinic in Montreal only to be told to wait his turn.

This is supposed to be an improvement on public healthcare?

I wonder how this story is being regarded in Quebec itself?

Before you get out the knives, keep in mind that there are some things that aren't exactly mentioned in the article.

- The clinic is described as a 'private medical clinic'. However, how were services paid for at the clinic? If the fees were paid through Quebec's health care plan, then labeling it as a private vs. public health care issue is inaccurate, since that "private" clinic isn't exactly operating under the rules of "free enterprise".

- The article had the lines: ...Sauvageau waited until his heart stopped and his dentures fell out onto the floor. Even then, the famous doctor who came to tend to him did a cursory exam and didn't try to revive him.... From reading that line, it sounds like Sauvegeau knew what was going on with the patient, when he might never have actually seen him or knew what was going on. Furthermore, I do have to wonder about the phrase "cursory exam". How many people in the waiting room had ever seen a doctor determine whether a patient had died?

A couple of years ago, I went to a medical clinic. This was in Ontario, where we have a Liberal government who is intent on protecting 'public' health care. I had a ruptured appendix. I ended up waiting until everyone else in the waiting room (most were there just for flu vaccines) got handled first. I do not blame the clinic however; I recognize that there is a large demand for a service, and the ability to prioritize patients is not necessarily an easy thing to do.

[Smallc]

I would like to remind both of you that almost all (if not all) clinics and hospitals in Canada are private. The clinic was bad....but the clinic down the road from you is just as private.

[madmax]

No, this is a story about how ONE private clinic and ONE doctor did a poor job!

IIRC this the same MD who has been advocating private medicine and has been leading the privatization the health care system. I believe his arguments used to focus on people dying in the waiting rooms of public funded health care, not getting looked at ....

Solution! Pay more and die waiting in his private facility

Edited April 23, 2009 by madmax

[madmax]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...y/National/home

This is supposed to be an improvement on public healthcare?

I wonder how this story is being regarded in Quebec itself?

YUP!!!

In 2005, he made history by persuading the Supreme Court to overturn Quebec's ban on private health insurance.

[segnosaur]

IIRC this the same MD who has been advocating private medicine and has been leading the privatization the health care system. I believe his arguments used to focus on people dying in the waiting rooms of public funded health care, not getting looked at ....

Solution! Pay more and die waiting in his private facility

Ummmm.... This has been pointed out by 2 different posters (myself and Smallc).

Although this clinic may have been considered 'private', fees were still likely paid through Quebec's health care plan. As such, this 'private' clinic shouldn't really be considered typical for a system which is able to freely operate on its own terms (even setting its own fee schedule and charging patients directly.)

Edited April 23, 2009 by segnosaur

[jdobbin]

No, this is a story about how ONE private clinic and ONE doctor did a poor job!

He is one of the chief advocates of private care and the fact that his private clinic performed so poorly is duly noted.

How would you react if I tarred today's entire Liberal caucus with a brush only deserved by Hedy Fry?

It happens every day here.

[bush_cheney2004]

I would like to remind both of you that almost all (if not all) clinics and hospitals in Canada are private. The clinic was bad....but the clinic down the road from you is just as private.

Agreed...the poor chap had to die somewhere.

[tango]

This is some story!

... private health care crusader Jacques Chaoulli.

He left him sitting in the chair, and told the nurse to phone 911 to report the death.

But the 911 operator pleaded with the nurse to try to revive Mr. Sauvageau. Dr. Chaoulli got on the phone and tried to argue the patient was dead; however, the 911 operator insisted.

[Mr. Sauvageau] had been alive just a few minutes earlier. Suddenly, he loses consciousness and his pulse stops. You have to throw yourself on him and get everything going again, and that wasn't done," Ms. Rudel-Tessier said in an interview. "[Dr. Chaoulli] should have done so."

ouch. I'd say he's in big trouble.

Edited April 24, 2009 by tango

[waldo]

Although this clinic may have been considered 'private', fees were still likely paid through Quebec's health care plan. As such, this 'private' clinic shouldn't really be considered typical for a system which is able to freely operate on its own terms (even setting its own fee schedule and charging patients directly.)

and this would account for the (lack of) action/response by private-care advocate, Dr. Jacques Chaoulli?

perhaps you could elaborate on the private system you describe as, "able to freely operate on its own terms (even setting its own fee schedule and charging patients directly.)". Could you cite an example of such a clinic/facility operating in this capacity in your area of the country?

[segnosaur]

Although this clinic may have been considered 'private', fees were still likely paid through Quebec's health care plan. As such, this 'private' clinic shouldn't really be considered typical for a system which is able to freely operate on its own terms (even setting its own fee schedule and charging patients directly.)

and this would account for the (lack of) action/response by private-care advocate, Dr. Jacques Chaoulli?

No, it wouldn't. I was simply pointing out that people characterizing this as a "Private health care is wrong" example are barking up the wrong tree. This "private" clinic was likely acting under the rules of our "public" health care system.

Chaoulli himself may be guilty of having a rotten bedside manner. He may be responsible for medical malpractice (although I doubt it goes that far). But this case is irrelevant in the public vs. private health care debate.

perhaps you could elaborate on the private system you describe as, "able to freely operate on its own terms (even setting its own fee schedule and charging patients directly.)". Could you cite an example of such a clinic/facility operating in this capacity in your area of the country?

No I can't. In fact, MOST clinics right across the country probably operate under the same system... privately owned/run by doctors, but paid for by medicare under the banner of "public" health care, with fee schedules that can't be changed.

[myata]

It may have, very simply, been a sound business decision by Mr Chaouili (whatever). Cost-benefit analysis. 15 minutes of doctor's time (with overheads) vs unknown possibility of patient being restored to life.

Get ready for a fun ride, everybody. Heads or tails.

No, I'm not advocating the status quo. But sheer cutthroat profiteering taking care of our health and lives? I'd think twice.

[Smallc]

No I can't. In fact, MOST clinics right across the country probably operate under the same system... privately owned/run by doctors, but paid for by medicare under the banner of "public" health care, with fee schedules that can't be changed.

Probably all clinics. All hospitals that I know of for example are private not for profit with charitable wings. Most clinics are private...some are for profit...some aren't. We really do have private delivery....we just have a public payment system. I personally like it that way. This doctor though...I don't think I like him.

[Who's Doing What?]

YUP!!!

In 2005, he made history by persuading the Supreme Court to overturn Quebec's ban on private health insurance.

Maybe the old dude didn't look like he could afford to be revived?

[Visionseeker]

It may have, very simply, been a sound business decision by Mr Chaouili (whatever). Cost-benefit analysis. 15 minutes of doctor's time (with overheads) vs unknown possibility of patient being restored to life.

Get ready for a fun ride, everybody. Heads or tails.

No, I'm not advocating the status quo. But sheer cutthroat profiteering taking care of our health and lives? I'd think twice.

Nail, Head, BANG!

One of my father's patients collapsed in a fainting episode. He told everyone in the waiting room with an appointment to come back in the evening (he later tended to them until 2 am) and advised all walk-ins to go to emerg or to come back the next morning.

But the day that a walk-in collapsed in his office is a story still told in that town today. He had two people in the waiting room help carry the young man onto an exam table while the receptionist called for an ambulance. An employee from the dinner across the street came in and explained that the "boy" acted strange right after he'd received his order.

My dad turned to the employee and asked: "Where's my sandwich?"[a lobster salad sandwich he had delivered every tuesday]

The employee muttered with surprise and a little disgust, "at the dinner!"

"Did you handle my order as well as his?" my father asked.

"Yes." Answered the employee.

That cinched it for dad. This was a case of anaphylaxis and after the airway failed to clear following the administration of ephedrine, he performed a trach and the kid survived. That's old school. And that's what medicine is missing today.