In Toronto, people go hungry all the time

[M.Dancer]

Meanwhile ,I still wait for the unemployed ,poverty stricken ,hungry soul to walk into my office looking for work. My shop is on the main drag of town. Where are all these massive amount of the disenfranchised people? Hmm! Maybe I should be advertising for workers at the beer store? Maybe I have it all wrong thinking they should be coming to me! Hmmm

Actually I think much of the pverty in Toronto can be summed up by the fellow who sits on the pavement of the Kitchen Stuff Plus store right beside the sign that says Join Our Team...

[benny]

Actually I think much of the pverty in Toronto can be summed up by the fellow who sits on the pavement of the Kitchen Stuff Plus store right beside the sign that says Join Our Team...

Profiteers enslave people by putting offices/stores in fields.

[M.Dancer]

Profiteers enslave people by putting offices/stores in fields.

This site may be of interest to you...

http://www.deepthoughtsbyjackhandey.com/random2.asp

[benny]

This site may be of interest to you...

http://www.deepthoughtsbyjackhandey.com/random2.asp

No

[CANADIEN]

Saying it for the third time doesn't make it so, especially since you provide no evidence.

When I see a sick man, I kbnow what his problem is... he's sick. I don't need further evidence.

Same when I see dire poverty in the midst of a simingly prosperous society,

[Renegade]

When I see a sick man, I kbnow what his problem is... he's sick. I don't need further evidence.

Same when I see dire poverty in the midst of a simingly prosperous society,

Yes it is clear to me how you look at the situation. Clearly if a doctor saw a sick man he would try and understand why he is sick because all that is visible is a symptom. Solving the problem requires an understanding of the root cause of the symptom.

Unfortunately your superficial conclusion of what the problem is, does nothing to try and address it.

[CANADIEN]

Yes it is clear to me how you look at the situation. Clearly if a doctor saw a sick man he would try and understand why he is sick because all that is visible is a symptom. Solving the problem requires an understanding of the root cause of the symptom.

Unfortunately your superficial conclusion of what the problem is, does nothing to try and address it.

And unfortunatly, when I mentioned government actions have been a contributing factor, you seemingly ignored it.

And unfortunately, calling Harris' cuts a success and saying that poverty is "sometimes" the result of bad choice is not the start of a solution.

Solving a problem starts by seeing there is a problem.

[benny]

What the current economic crisis is showing is that when people cannot be forced any longer to buy in the American dream, they can barely buy food.

[g_bambino]

...saying that poverty is "sometimes" the result of bad choice is not the start of a solution.

Of course it is, Canadien. It will do nobody any good at all if we all have to support individuals who simply won't take responsibility for themselves. Those types need to be first weeded out in order to find the individuals who are truly poor, so they can get the assistance they need.

[benny]

Of course it is, Canadien. It will do nobody any good at all if we all have to support individuals who simply won't take responsibility for themselves. Those types need to be first weeded out in order to find the individuals who are truly poor, so they can get the assistance they need.

The problem is that you, obviously, don't have children in mind when you write "individuals".

[g_bambino]

The problem is that you, obviously, don't have children in mind when you write "individuals".

The first time I wrote the word, or the second? Please be clear.

_[copyedited]

Edited April 30, 2009 by g_bambino

[benny]

The first time I wrote the word, or the second? Please be clear.

_[copyedited]

It is almost impossible to be careful enough before separating children from their "irresponsible" parents.

[g_bambino]

It is almost impossible to be careful enough before separating children from their "irresponsible" parents.

I beg to differ; it is quite easy to see that children are not at fault for the choices of their irresponsible parents, and thus they fall into the second of the categories I mentioned before. Does it not also seem obvious that having parents make better choices would be a net plus for their children?

[August1991]

Hope, or the lack thereof, also comes from the way others treat you.

Maybe this is the problem.

For you and Tango, poverty is a "relative state of mind". If everyone in the neighbourhood has the granite countertop, three car garage and the elevator, then you are poor if you only have Ikea furniture.

-----

The OP started with the claim that "People in Toronto go hungry all the time". I think that's an absolute measure of wealth and not a relative measure.

And I still argue that if anyone is hungry in Canada (other than children or those with mental problems), it is because of bad choices that they made. The poverty in places like China is completely unlike so-called poverty in places like Canada.

[benny]

I beg to differ; it is quite easy to see that children are not at fault for the choices of their irresponsible parents, and thus they fall into the second of the categories I mentioned before. Does it not also seem obvious that having parents make better choices would be a net plus for their children?

The problem is that children would not understand a social worker if s/he says they have irresponsible parents.

[g_bambino]

The problem is that children would not understand a social worker if s/he says they have irresponsible parents.

Maybe they would and maybe they wouldn't. I don't see how it matters, either way.

[CANADIEN]

Of course it is, Canadien. It will do nobody any good at all if we all have to support individuals who simply won't take responsibility for themselves. Those types need to be first weeded out in order to find the individuals who are truly poor, so they can get the assistance they need.

It's merely saying "some are making bad decisions, it's not saying what to do with them.

I'll pass over the use of the term weediing, even though we're talking about humans, not dandelion. And as I have said before, some people need a kick somewhere.

But someone who is poor is poor, no matter how they became poor or whether or not the best way to help them includes a good shake.

[CANADIEN]

Maybe this is the problem.

For you and Tango, poverty is a "relative state of mind".

As I said before, poverty is when someone goes hungry at night and can't find decent lodging. Nothing relative about that.

If everyone in the neighbourhood has the granite countertop, three car garage and the elevator, then you are poor if you only have Ikea furniture.

Not if the appartment is fit for human beings and they can afford three meals a day. And I have not claimed otherwise.

Edited April 30, 2009 by CANADIEN

[benny]

Maybe they would and maybe they wouldn't. I don't see how it matters, either way.

The problem is that you don't see it matters; you risk ruining the life chances of the children of the individuals you deem are irresponsible parents.

[g_bambino]

It's merely saying "some are making bad decisions, it's not saying what to do with them.

But someone who is poor is poor, no matter how they became poor or whether or not the best way to help them includes a good shake.

No, you're right in that I'm not saying what to do with the individuals in particular, but they can't be dealt with until they're found, so I merely wanted to contest that "saying that poverty is "sometimes" the result of bad choice is not the start of a solution". It is a start, though certainly not itself the solution.

I'm not entirely sure that "poor is poor"; August raises a good point in that lack of material goods is sometimes defined as poverty, when it isn't really poverty at all. To my mind, poor equates with a lack of the basic necessities of life: food, shelter, education, and medicine; none of which, fortunately, is unavailable to Canadians.

[g_bambino]

[Y]ou risk ruining the life chances of the children of the individuals you deem are irresponsible parents.

Oh? Please explain how I'm doing such a thing.

[Renegade]

And unfortunatly, when I mentioned government actions have been a contributing factor, you seemingly ignored it.

Government actions are not the cause of poverty. If people are impacted by the changes to the social saftey net, it is because the were already poor enough to require that safety net. The government didn't make them poor it simply helped them mitigate the effects of their poverty. It is up to the discretion of the populace at large to determine how extensive a safety net they want, but they are under no obligation to provide one.

Many people have not fallen into poverty despite a reduced saftey net. That means that there is something different about those who do. Understanding that, will help determine why those people are poor. It isn't necessarily the lack of a government social safety net, as they all operate under the same governmental safety net.

And unfortunately, calling Harris' cuts a success and saying that poverty is "sometimes" the result of bad choice is not the start of a solution.

And how exactly do you know that? For some, acknowledging their past bad choices is the first step on the road to recovering from those choices and making better ones. Poverty which is a result of a bad choice is a hard lesson, but likely a memorable one, so long as one undestands the reason the choice led to the poverty.

Solving a problem starts by seeing there is a problem.

Certainly I understand that there is a problem. It just is not the same problem you see.

[Renegade]

The problem is that you don't see it matters; you risk ruining the life chances of the children of the individuals you deem are irresponsible parents.

Perhaps those irresponsible parents should be precluded from being parents to begin with.

[charter.rights]

Perhaps those irresponsible parents should be precluded from being parents to begin with.

So would you propose sterilization, infanticide, or kidnapping to "preclude" irresponsible parents?

[Muddy]

Another morning here at work and still no long line ups of even one unemployed person looking for work! Am I missing something here? Mean while our food bank is looking for donations! Hmmm...