In Toronto, people go hungry all the time

[g_bambino]

Right. And that's just as much nonsense, imo.

Good thing, then, that your opinion isn't fact.

[Muddy]

I have people who claim to be hungry stepping into my shop begging for money for food. Now I hate to see folks go hungry so instead of handing them a tooney as requested I offer them a meal. I keep juices and frozen dinners along with a microwave in my office. I am willing to feed people. Not one of these bums have ever accepted my offer. The other people who get under my skin are those who come in with a card and a trinket begging for money. On the card it explains they are deaf. I ask them if they read lips. If affirmative I tell them to get a job! People with worse problems are productive members of society.If people spent as much effort working or looking for work as they do bumming they would be better off.

look at Toronto. They have more people working in the homeless industry than they have homeless. They even pay people to pretend the are homeless.

Her is a quick start to feeding and caring for these bums ,er I mean homeless. We have lots of unused military barracks in this country. Gather the tramps , er I mean homeless and put them into these camps ,feed them ,school them and nurse them back to health. Yes against their will if neccessary. If some are to mentally sick they should be incarcerated in a mental facility where they can be humanely cared for and maybe even nursed back to health.

But what we are doing now sure does not work. All we are doing is making being a bum respectable.

[CANADIEN]

There is no reason to go hungry. Get a job. Manage your prioritys.

Get a job, right? Most of the increase in usage of Food Banks in the late 1990's came from people WORKING FULL TIME at minimum wage. In one pathetic case a few years back, families of soldiers in Alberta has to rely on a food bank. There are food banks in universities.

[CANADIEN]

The other people who get under my skin are those who come in with a card and a trinket begging for money. On the card it explains they are deaf. I ask them if they read lips. If affirmative I tell them to get a job!

So, next time you put a job wanted ad and a deaf person comes in applying, you'll hire him/her, right?

People with worse problems are productive members of society.

Indeed, you're a proof of it.

[Wild Bill]

So, next time you put a job wanted ad and a deaf person comes in applying, you'll hire him/her, right?

Indeed, you're a proof of it.

As I said before, one side believes that all such people are on the level and the other side doesn't believe that ANY of them are honest!

This 'digital' way of thinking is simply illogical. It's been my experience that honesty has little or nothing to do with someone's character. There are lazy and crooked rich people and there are honest and hard working poor people.

However, if someone thinks that ALL poor people are honest and ALL rich people are crooks then I know of some swamp land in Florida they may want to buy...

[Muddy]

Get a job, right? Most of the increase in usage of Food Banks in the late 1990's came from people WORKING FULL TIME at minimum wage. In one pathetic case a few years back, families of soldiers in Alberta has to rely on a food bank. There are food banks in universities.

Like I said ,when people have choices to make and they have limited money,beer or food, well heck Mildred we can get free food. Food banks are a self perpetuating industry. Now if people were screened for need at food banks I would be more supportive. In our town volunteers quit who deliver for the food banks. Car sitting in the drive way and beer being consumed along with the unwashed next generation being trained to follow in their parents footsteps.

[Muddy]

Get a job, right? Most of the increase in usage of Food Banks in the late 1990's came from people WORKING FULL TIME at minimum wage. In one pathetic case a few years back, families of soldiers in Alberta has to rely on a food bank. There are food banks in universities.

Like I said ,when people have choices to make and they have limited money,beer or food, well heck Mildred we can get free food. Food banks are a self perpetuating industry. Now if people were screened for need at food banks I would be more supportive. In our town volunteers quit who deliver for the food banks. Car sitting in the drive way and beer being consumed along with the unwashed next generation being trained to follow in their parents footsteps.

[Muddy]

So, next time you put a job wanted ad and a deaf person comes in applying, you'll hire him/her, right?

Indeed, you're a proof of it.

To address your question ,would I hire a deaf person. Sure why not if they qualify and are able to do the job they are hired for. I have hired people who have physical handicaps.

As for your last comment! Was that a personal shot? Is that allowed on this forum. I really don`t care I just would like to know the rules before I address your comment.

[CANADIEN]

To address your question ,would I hire a deaf person. Sure why not if they qualify and are able to do the job they are hired for. I have hired people who have physical handicaps.

As for your last comment! Was that a personal shot? Is that allowed on this forum. I really don`t care I just would like to know the rules before I address your comment.

People who have nothing better to do in life than to engage is generalizing cr*p like blaminjg the poor and the hungry for their condition to the tune of "if only they were not guzzling beer" have a great deficiency in logic and plain decency. Feel free to take that fact personnally, or even to report me if you think I am breaking this forum rules. It will not change my opinion.

[CANADIEN]

Like I said ,when people have choices to make and they have limited money,beer or food, well heck Mildred we can get free food. Food banks are a self perpetuating industry. Now if people were screened for need at food banks I would be more supportive. In our town volunteers quit who deliver for the food banks. Car sitting in the drive way and beer being consumed along with the unwashed next generation being trained to follow in their parents footsteps.

Am I right in assuming that the families or SOLDIERS who had to rely on food banks did so because they were just lazy drunks? Nothing to do with low salaries and lack base-related earning possiblities for the soldiers' spouses.

News to you. Food banks usually DO screen people for eligibility.

According to the (Toronto) Daily Bread Food Bank, almost half of the users of their services are immigrants; perhaps their bad decision was to come here after all. And i wonder how many Muslim or Jewish immigrants actually buy beer instead of food. Almost half of the users have a serious illness or disability, more than a third are chldren... their bad decision was? Users spend on avarage 77% of their income on housing... the recommended pecentage is 30%.

[tango]

My Mrs. who has a more social conscience than I gives to our local food bank. My question is why is there such a big parking lot for their clients ? Why do they have such nice cars? Food banks are a self perpetuating industry. Welfare cheque is in , lets see now! I can buy beer ,take in a movie, designer jeans or food! Heck I can get free food!

There is no reason to go hungry. Get a job. Manage your prioritys.

Whose cars? The volunteers?

I have a problem with the logic that says we make the children go hungry because their parents are bums/alcoholics/drug addicts/criminals.

It is the kids who really suffer, and then we have a new generation of unemployables.

I think it would be a very noble experiment to raise all people out of poverty by redistributing wealth, and then see how many social problems disappear.

Kids who are hungry do not learn well. One of the most successful impacts on academic performance is a school food program.

We don't have to analyze and speculate about the social problems. Just feed people properly, especially children, and see if it makes a difference.

Personally, I favour school food programs.

Edited April 19, 2009 by tango

[CANADIEN]

Whose cars? The volunteers?

I have indeed seen the "huge" (30, 40 cars ?) a the Daily Bread main DISTRIBUTING facility (that's where they receive and re-distribute the food at the local food banks). That building is huge, and that's what is needed to accept all the food being donated. That kind of bulding, in an industrial area, does come with wide parking space. But perhaps Muddy's fears would be less if the central point for the reception of food and its re-distribution was in a suburn bungalow with no parking space? Just asking.

[tango]

To address your question ,would I hire a deaf person. Sure why not if they qualify and are able to do the job they are hired for. I have hired people who have physical handicaps.

As for your last comment! Was that a personal shot? Is that allowed on this forum. I really don`t care I just would like to know the rules before I address your comment.

You told that deaf person to "Get a job", so the question is not would you hire a deaf person. The question is 'would you hire THAT person?' If you wouldn't, chances are no one else would either.

Pretty difficult for the low skilled people who live in poverty, often due to illness, mental illness or disability, to "Get a job", when highly skilled people often can't, especially right now.

[tango]

I have indeed seen the "huge" (30, 40 cars ?) a the Daily Bread main DISTRIBUTING facility (that's where they receive and re-distribute the food at the local food banks). That building is huge, and that's what is needed to accept all the food being donated. That kind of bulding, in an industrial area, does come with wide parking space. But perhaps Muddy's fears would be less if the central point for the reception of food and its re-distribution was in a suburn bungalow with no parking space? Just asking.

Ya ... but where would the volunteers park their big cars?

[tango]

Who are the poor in Canada?

http://www.thestar.com/comment/article/166353

Frances McNutt, a Scarborough mother with four young children under the age of 12, is struggling to get by on social assistance. But after the Ontario government claws back the National Child Benefit Supplement from her meagre payment and she pays her $990 rent, she is left with only $122 to feed and clothe her children and herself until the middle of each month when her $300 child-support cheque arrives.

After six years on welfare, McNutt is trying to get back on her feet by taking job training and doing volunteer work, but she admits it's hard.

McNutt is just one of the 5.3 million hidden faces of poverty in Canada. Tragically, the number of people living in poverty has grown – not dropped – in recent years despite economic boom times in many parts of this nation. Those good times, though, have bypassed many Canadians. Today, one in six Canadians, including 1.2 million children, live a miserable existence on incomes well below anyone's definition of poverty.

Welfare + child support x4:

$16,944 ($1,412/mo)

Minimum wage:

$17,992 ($1,499/mo)

And see StatsCan table here:

http://www40.statcan.gc.ca/l01/cst01/famil19a-eng.htm

Canada has made a concerted effort, and had some success in raising some seniors out of poverty. However, the same effort and success is not apparent for families with children, especially single moms.

[Muddy]

Ok girls and boys ,I will share with you a story. I was born poor and my old man had departed the picture. I quit school and went to work at grade six. I was a lousey student anyway. But my mentors were family. we never begged, we turned our hand to anything. There was no subsidized houseing. We lived in third floor flats and shared the bathroom with other tenants. I thouhght our landlord was rich. I wanted what that man had. But I worked hard,nose to the grind stone, took risks, married a great gal.Although I am pushing the ancient category I still rise every morning and am the first one in the shop and thats after working out for an hour at the gym. I do public service through my service club that I have been a member of for 25 years. I work with my regimental association helping wounded soldiers or ones who find themselves in difficulty out of no fault of their own.

My poor old hard working Mom was a die hard communist ,she thought by taking from the rich you could make people equal! You can`t! And yes in between I did a stint in the army where I got educated enough to know I was not going to bend a knee to anyone. I know what it`s like as a kid to go to bed hungry.To not have socks in your rubber boots and have the crotch out of your trousers. When we made being poor respectable we took away the hunger to suceed with honest toil. We have created gettoes with government houseing. Places that breed crime. where you have to belong to a gang to survive. Yet stupid do gooders want to build more public houseing ! Why? To create more gettoes? You know it`s OK to fail! We all do. But it is insane ,to follow the same mistakes. I have never passed a beggar who was bumming,without asking if they would like me to buy them a meal. I have never had one say yes. People in my community know me ,so your estimation of me means nothing to me.

They know when it comes to fund raiseing for causes in my community I am the go to guy.

The best favour we can give someone sometimes is a swift kick in the slats to get them motivated.

I will horse whip someone who steals from my garden ,but I will never refuse a hungry person a meal.

Moral,of my story, envy and greed are great motivaters to rise above the station your born into, but you must do it honestly. We are taking the gonads out of the mass` by telling them boo hoo you poor soul. You can`t function you imbecile without the work of a social worker.

We were once a hard working people! We are now a nation of navel gazers blaming everything but ourselves for our problems. At my great age ,if everything I have of value disappeared, I would either have a job tomorow or I would be creating one. If you feed a man a fish he eats for one day. If you teach him to fish he will be disappointed at that career choice. Look to what services or products are going to be needed tomorow. THINK BIG!

Help people up! Steady them on their feet. Then for crying out loud make them walk.

[tango]

Ok girls and boys ,I will share with you a story. I was born poor and my old man had departed the picture. I quit school and went to work at grade six. I was a lousey student anyway. But my mentors were family. we never begged, we turned our hand to anything. There was no subsidized houseing. We lived in third floor flats and shared the bathroom with other tenants. I thouhght our landlord was rich. I wanted what that man had. But I worked hard,nose to the grind stone, took risks, married a great gal.Although I am pushing the ancient category I still rise every morning and am the first one in the shop and thats after working out for an hour at the gym. I do public service through my service club that I have been a member of for 25 years. I work with my regimental association helping wounded soldiers or ones who find themselves in difficulty out of no fault of their own.

My poor old hard working Mom was a die hard communist ,she thought by taking from the rich you could make people equal! You can`t! And yes in between I did a stint in the army where I got educated enough to know I was not going to bend a knee to anyone. I know what it`s like as a kid to go to bed hungry.To not have socks in your rubber boots and have the crotch out of your trousers. When we made being poor respectable we took away the hunger to suceed with honest toil. We have created gettoes with government houseing. Places that breed crime. where you have to belong to a gang to survive. Yet stupid do gooders want to build more public houseing ! Why? To create more gettoes? You know it`s OK to fail! We all do. But it is insane ,to follow the same mistakes.

Yes we made big mistakes in the 60's and 70's, putting public housing all in the same place. Some of them still exist but they are being gradually replaced by units reserved for that purpose in a variety of locations.

We have always had public housing of some kind. They used to call them the "poor houses" or "workhouses".

I have never passed a beggar who was bumming,without asking if they would like me to buy them a meal. I have never had one say yes.

Funny ... I've never had one say no when offered food.

People in my community know me ,so your estimation of me means nothing to me.

They know when it comes to fund raiseing for causes in my community I am the go to guy.

The best favour we can give someone sometimes is a swift kick in the slats to get them motivated.

I will horse whip someone who steals from my garden ,but I will never refuse a hungry person a meal.

Moral,of my story, envy and greed are great motivaters to rise above the station your born into, but you must do it honestly. We are taking the gonads out of the mass` by telling them boo hoo you poor soul. You can`t function you imbecile without the work of a social worker.

We were once a hard working people! We are now a nation of navel gazers blaming everything but ourselves for our problems.

Are you speaking for yourself? Because that certainly does not describe all of us.

At my great age ,if everything I have of value disappeared, I would either have a job tomorow or I would be creating one. If you feed a man a fish he eats for one day. If you teach him to fish he will be disappointed at that career choice. Look to what services or products are going to be needed tomorow. THINK BIG!

Help people up! Steady them on their feet. Then for crying out loud make them walk.

Except the ones who are disabled, or partially so. Except the ones with mental illness. Except the ones caring for those. Except the single moms with young children. Except those with addictions, because no one will hire them anyway. Pretty much nobody will hire any of these people.

Just who are all these people that you think exist who are so "unmotivated"?

I only see people in poverty from those groups above, unemployable in today's world.

Of course, that can change and is changing right now as so many thousands are being laid off ... due to greed-induced short-sightedness in the corporate world.

I agree that people need a hand up, and in fact 80% of people on welfare are off and working within 2-3 years. Most of these are single moms.

However, the people left who are not employable, on welfare or on disability, are doomed to harsh poverty, though they are the most vulnerable and the least capable among us.

Why do we doom such people to hunger? It just doesn't seem right to me.

[g_bambino]

I have indeed seen the "huge" (30, 40 cars ?) a the Daily Bread main DISTRIBUTING facility... That building is huge, and that's what is needed to accept all the food being donated.

Actually, I volunteered at the Daily Bread Food Bank for a couple of years when I was in high school; the building on Lakeshore in Toronto was huge, but it certainly wasn't full of food. Most of the space was empty. The only time I saw the place close to full was at around Thanksgiving. While that illustrated to me that generosity generally only blossoms in people when its expected of them - ie. during the holidays - another revelation was that the number of people coming to collect food also increased at the same time, and the majority of those individuals did not seem to be starving, exactly. I couldn't understand why I was volunteering my time to provide food for families that came well dressed in winter clothing - replete with knit hats and matching mittens - pushed their healthy enough looking kids around in strollers, and carted boxes of free food off in their minivan. I didn't exactly expect a parade of Dikensonian characters in tattered rags to come shuffling through, but what I did see was disillusioning, to say the least; a blatant abuse of a system by people who could too easily bat away any questioning of their motives by simply stating that they were poor and hungry. Everyone - outwardly, at least - just believed them, said "awwww", and handed away free food.

[g_bambino]

We have always had public housing of some kind. They used to call them... "workhouses".

Indeed, there used to be such things. Interesting label for them, though; seems quaint and anachronistic today because nobody would dream of running a place called a "workhouse", what with its implications of forced labour and human rights abuse. Expect people to work for the housing they receive? Why, what a shockingly outdated concept!

Tango, I think the point you keep evading is the one that Wild Bill touched on: poverty isn't a black and white issue; there are many different scenarios and situations that each call for a different response. I don't think anyone is saying here that people with disabilities should be put on the street and told to fend for themselves (though, that's essentially what the government here in Ontario did when it closed mental health institutions, all in the name of human rights, ironically). Rather, I think most are rightly suspicious of anyone who simply walks up with hand extended and says "gimme!" My parents' stories, Muddy's tale, and countless others, I'm sure, show that "poor" does not always equal "victim"; in fact, today, in this part of the world, it rarely, rarely does. People, instead, have become spoiled, and whereas one used to be taught to work hard to improve one's situation, the instruction now is to turn to someone else to do it for you. Of course, who tells us to do that but the very ones who make their living "providing" for the so-called destitute? So, now it's "social housing" - housing given away by society - rather than "workhouses" - housing obtained through work. Kind of telling, isn't it?

[Wild Bill]

I think it would be a very noble experiment to raise all people out of poverty by redistributing wealth, and then see how many social problems disappear.

It's been tried a number of times and its never worked. Soviet Russia was a good example. With wealth redistribution schemes comes a loss of incentive. Capable people who create wealth tend to stop trying. So there's little or no new wealth created.

Contrary to the belief of many socialists, those folks who create businesses along with new technologies and better efficiencies don't do it simply because they are genetically programmed. You can't take them for granted.

Once you turn the shoe factories over to the workers somehow you always produce fewer and fewer shoes. You never see new shoe machines, just old ones continually being patched together to keep working.

The story of "The Little Red Hen" is quite valid and is never addressed in socialist schemes. As the 'system' keeps deteriorating the blame games start. Rather than accept that the initial premises were flawed the blame is given to "evil greedy people". Eventually the state feels forced to use more and more power to MAKE people work!

Talk to anyone who escaped from East Germany. They didn't make their stories up!

This is not to say that our own system couldn't use some improvement and a bit more "heart". We've never really had a capitalist system. When our politicians can rig the game by definition it's no longer a free trade system. And those politicians rarely rig the game for the people's benefit.

I think if you ever had the power to wave a magic wand and make the world over to your simplistic ideals you would actually be causing even more heartache and pain.

[tango]

Indeed, there used to be such things. Interesting label for them, though; seems quaint and anachronistic today because nobody would dream of running a place called a "workhouse", what with its implications of forced labour and human rights abuse. Expect people to work for the housing they receive? Why, what a shockingly outdated concept!

Tango, I think the point you keep evading is the one that Wild Bill touched on: poverty isn't a black and white issue; there are many different scenarios and situations that each call for a different response. I don't think anyone is saying here that people with disabilities should be put on the street and told to fend for themselves (though, that's essentially what the government here in Ontario did when it closed mental health institutions, all in the name of human rights, ironically). Rather, I think most are rightly suspicious of anyone who simply walks up with hand extended and says "gimme!" My parents' stories, Muddy's tale, and countless others, I'm sure, show that "poor" does not always equal "victim"; in fact, today, in this part of the world, it rarely, rarely does. People, instead, have become spoiled, and whereas one used to be taught to work hard to improve one's situation, the instruction now is to turn to someone else to do it for you. Of course, who tells us to do that but the very ones who make their living "providing" for the so-called destitute? So, now it's "social housing" - housing given away by society - rather than "workhouses" - housing obtained through work. Kind of telling, isn't it?

Are you sure the ones who walk up and say "gimme" are the poor and not just crooks? Maybe we're just not talking about the same people. I'm talking about families who do not have enough to eat, mothers who have to lock their cupboards because their teenaged sons will eat a week's food in a day (because they need it, but she can't afford it).

I think the problem is that the ones who are perhaps conning people are not really the poor, but that's who people want to think the poor are, so they dismiss the truly impoverished based on a stereotype that does not represent the poor.

If you can dismiss them all as crooks, you can feel satisfied with allowing them only welfare/disability benefits that keep them hungry.

Unfortunately, the truly needy suffer the disdain of otherwise decent people, because those decent people allow themselves to believe that the nastiest among the panhandlers represent all poor people.

You just gave an example of a well dressed woman with a minivan going to the food bank.

You may be right that she's a rip off artist. However, it's also possible that she just lost her job and doesn't have enough food. Maybe her EI is delayed, as it usually is. Maybe we shouldn't jump to conclusions ... or maybe she's one of the ones people like to include in stereotypes so they can more easily dismiss all poor people.

[Borg]

http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/619275

Poorest families go hungry all day

MICHAEL STUPARYK/TORONTO STAR

Patricia McKenzie, 38, waits her turn at east-end Agnes MacPhail food bank. She says she can't remember the last time she had fresh food. (April 15, 2009)

Defining poverty

BY THE NUMBERS

50%

of families delayed paying bills when faced with food shortages

22%

of families, in the past 12 months, used food banks in the areas studied

Study measures depth of poverty in Toronto

Apr 16, 2009 04:30 AM

Joseph Hall

Patty Winsa

Staff Reporters

Patricia McKenzie has no cable or Internet. She doesn't even have a television.

She has had to give them up for a far more basic staple: Food.

An unemployed 38-year-old, McKenzie says she has gone days without eating and has often had to choose between paying the rent and paying for groceries.

Thus, the Dawes Rd. resident likely would find no surprises in a new University of Toronto study that suggests two out of three families in the city's lowest-income neighbourhoods are unable to even get enough to eat.

...

While McKenzie, who was waiting outside the Agnes McPhail food bank at Main St. and Danforth Ave. yesterday, has no children, she says she has often sacrificed food for her husband, who is ill.

"I go without fresh food or vegetables all the time," says McKenzie, who can't recall the last time she has had either. She lives mostly on canned food. No eggs. No milk. No cheese.

Why can't people on disability, EI, etc. get enough money to live without hunger?

Why can't people making over $1m a year give up a little so those who live in poverty can live without hunger?

Perhaps some of that money wasted in places like Africa would be better spent at home

Borg

[CANADIEN]

Indeed, there used to be such things. Interesting label for them, though; seems quaint and anachronistic today because nobody would dream of running a place called a "workhouse", what with its implications of forced labour and human rights abuse. Expect people to work for the housing they receive? Why, what a shockingly outdated concept!

Tango, I think the point you keep evading is the one that Wild Bill touched on: poverty isn't a black and white issue; there are many different scenarios and situations that each call for a different response. I don't think anyone is saying here that people with disabilities should be put on the street and told to fend for themselves (though, that's essentially what the government here in Ontario did when it closed mental health institutions, all in the name of human rights, ironically). Rather, I think most are rightly suspicious of anyone who simply walks up with hand extended and says "gimme!" My parents' stories, Muddy's tale, and countless others, I'm sure, show that "poor" does not always equal "victim"; in fact, today, in this part of the world, it rarely, rarely does. People, instead, have become spoiled, and whereas one used to be taught to work hard to improve one's situation, the instruction now is to turn to someone else to do it for you. Of course, who tells us to do that but the very ones who make their living "providing" for the so-called destitute? So, now it's "social housing" - housing given away by society - rather than "workhouses" - housing obtained through work. Kind of telling, isn't it?

Indeed, it is not black and white. Why then the quasi0automatic assumption by some that, unless one has a disability, being poor isnecessarily the result of bad choices and that most people with not enough to eat are scam artists of some sort or lazy drunks.

[Charles Anthony]

Guys,

There is toooo much quoting going on. Stop re-copying the entirety of someone else's post in your quotation. Please review these threads:

Using the [ Quote ] Feature: Avoid using more too many quotes!

Trim Your Posts and Quotes -- Don't just hit "Reply"

which go through details on how to tidy up the formatting.

Some members have had trouble with the forum editing functions. Make sure that you have JavaScript turned on in your browser. Many of the advanced editing features require it. If you need help editing your posts, do not hesitate to ask through this Personal Messaging function.

Ch. A.

[Muddy]

well here I am at work after a good work out at the Gym. This is my regular start of the day ,six days a week. I do not have anyone standing in front of the shop when I come in looking for work! Why is that? Where are these poor people?When I was 14 I wanted a job in this particular shop. Every morning for a week I made the owner move me aside with the comment I told you yesterday I don`t have a job for you. Finally he invited me in for a coffee. He asked me what I thought I could do for him? I created a job. I got 20 cents a hour and was glad of it. Where are all these unemployed who should be knocking on my shop door? Wakey ,wakey you poor souls! Get your ass in gear if you want work!