Alberta Employment Rate in Freefall

[madmax]

JOBS GOING GOING GONE!!!

When it comes to employment, new figures from Statistics Canada show that Alberta has fallen further and faster over the past six months than any other province.

Between October 2008 and March 2009, Alberta lost more than 73,000 full-time jobs. This was partially offset by an increase in part-time employment (22,000 jobs) - but left Alberta with a net loss of 51,400 jobs over the period.

Between March 2008 and March 2009, the number of unemployed people in Alberta has jumped by 72 per cent - the highest increase in the country.

Regardless, people in Ontario are still being lured by recruiting firms to work in Alberta. Its absurd to hear recruiters tell you that the people in Alberta are too lazy to do the work.

[tango]

Quite a comedown for Alberta.

As a one industry province, it's very vulnerable to the current economic collapse.

Idle steel and auto factories buy no fuel.

Alberta is also vulnerable long term, because 'dirty oil' is now a hard sell.

[ToadBrother]

Quite a comedown for Alberta.

As a one industry province, it's very vulnerable to the current economic collapse.

Idle steel and auto factories buy no fuel.

Alberta is also vulnerable long term, because 'dirty oil' is now a hard sell.

Sure makes all those years of the rest of the country being constantly told by that idiot drunk Ralph Klein that Alberta was being soundly financially managed. The reality is that obscenely high oil prices were the only reason Alberta was in such good shape. Take away those oil prices, and the whole house of cards comes down.

[Smallc]

I'm sure this is somehow the rest of Canada's fault as well.

[tango]

I never had any sense of the extreme resentment of Alberta cons against the rest of Canada until discussion boards. I'm not sure I wanted to know either.

And why is it that unions and workers of all kinds are just supposed to 'suck it up', when the high paid people whine like stuck pigs at a little hit to their wallet? It's just so disgusting.

It makes no sense. I'm more and more inclined to believe we truly need to rein in the high rollers. They have no commitment to country, to people, only moneymoneymoney in their own pocket.

I wonder if it is finally sinking in out there that Alberta is dependent for its welfare not only on the fortuitous presence of oil, but also on the presence of industries and cars to use that oil ... in the east.

[Smallc]

I never had any sense of the extreme resentment of Alberta cons against the rest of Canada until discussion boards.

I sincerely hope that it is simply an internet population thing. I mean, I love Alberta...just as I love the rest of Canada. I hope, given that Albertans seemed to be very proud of their country (according to that poll) less than one year ago, that they still feel that way. I will give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that they do love Canada and that they don't hate the rest of us simply because they have more money and they have to share it.

[Alta4ever]

Funny you are using the numbers for spring break up (last weeks of feb begining of march). Lots of pinks go out at the time due to road bands with in 2 months most go back to work. But what would people from outside the province know of this.

[Hydraboss]

When I worked for a huge multi-national based out of Texas (O&G), even THEY didn't understand what break-up was. I had to drive around in the Chinchaga (Northwestern Alberta) with their head engineer for a week before he realized why rig counts drop at that time. The company that I work for just laid off about another 1300 workers (approx. 600 are in our drilling-related divisions) and when things pick up in late May or June, they'll be back.

I never had any sense of the extreme resentment of Alberta cons against the rest of Canada until discussion boards. I'm not sure I wanted to know either.

I sincerely hope that it is simply an internet population thing.

The extreme resentment in Alberta for the east is quite real. Depends when you ask and what the person's financial status happens to be. There are so many non-Albertans working in this province that it's hard to get a true picture, but when you've lived here all your life and "the east" takes a huge portion of the paycheck that's meant for your family and gives it to another province - then you'll see resentment if not true hatred surface. The non-Albertan workers tend to be the first ones laid off, and if they haven't made the choice to move here (families and all) then they're actually just travelling workers that go back home when they lose their jobs. The ones that have made the move hold no resentment towards the ROC (generally speaking) until finances hit the rocks. Then they'll even talk down about their home provinces being "leeches".

The "polls" that were held are accurate only so far as the time and place they were held. Was everyone working when asked the questions?

that they don't hate the rest of us simply because they have more money and they have to share it.

The hatred is not for people, it's for areas of the country that take out money and the government that gave it to them. Personally, I don't know enough people currently living in the east to have made a decision on whether of not I love them, hate them or anything else. I do, however, have an absolute disgust for the province of Kwebek and their financial take-take-take attitude. This is all about money. Why do people from all over the country move to Alberta? Because we have the best weather? Because they want to be sent up north to live in a camp in the Birch Mountain Project? Bitscho Lake project? They like living in a buddy's basement for three years? No. They move here for money to better their lives and the lives of their families. It's all good until someone takes that money.

Whether or not you choose to believe it, that "resentment" you sense, hear and read about is reality. You probably wouldn't see it too much on a one week trip, but it's alive and well. You think I'm "extreme"? I'm normal in the majority of coffee rooms in this province (the NDP city of Edmonton exempted). Just stroll in and mention that the feds are increasing equalization payments from Alberta to wherever, and watch the anger get real big, real quick.

[Hydraboss]

I wonder if it is finally sinking in out there that Alberta is dependent for its welfare not only on the fortuitous presence of oil, but also on the presence of industries and cars to use that oil ... in the east.

Our oil is not dependant on anything in the east. The Alliance pipeline goes south and then east, and if Canada doesn't buy it, America will gladly use it up. The "dirty oil" BS doesn't mean a thing when gas goes from $1.99 in Washington State to $3.50 a gallon. They couldn't care less where the product comes from, as long as it keeps coming. There are more than enough industries and vehicles in the States to use up every last drop of oil we produce.

California alone would gladly purchase every single last CF of natural gas we produce as well, and that would just be to run their air conditioners. Alberta does not need to rely on a damn thing from eastern Canada. Neither does BC. Neither does Saskatchewan.

Without us you'd be hurting. Not the other way around.

[Smallc]

Without us you'd be hurting. Not the other way around.

Except that outside of the minds of a few, we are all part of one country under a maple leaf. We are all Canadians. I know enough people from different parts of the country and though they may say negative things about another part of the country, they, unlike you, realize that we are all Canadian.

[Hydraboss]

Except that outside of the minds of a few, we are all part of one country under a maple leaf. We are all Canadians. I know enough people from different parts of the country and though they may say negative things about another part of the country, they, unlike you, realize that we are all Canadian.

Yes, we're all technically Canadian but that only goes so far. When it's starts impacting the ability for little Jack or Jane to play hockey this year or for Mom to be able to drive the new Envoy, then it's all out war against whoever is taking the money off the paycheck.

The core disagreement here, as you and others stated in another thread, is that people like me believe that when we work for a paycheck it's ours, whereas you and others believe that it belongs to all of the country. Until that basic belief is addressed, this type of battle will continue without end. The rest of the comments that follow with this type of conversation are simply semantics.

[Smallc]

Until that basic belief is addressed, this type of battle will continue without end.

It has been addressed. Albertans by a large majority love Canada as proven in the poll taken less than a year ago. Albertans love this country whether or not you personally do.

The battle is over:

Constitution Act, 1982, Part III

EQUALIZATION AND REGIONAL DISPARITIES

Commitment to promote equal opportunities 36. (1) Without altering the legislative authority of Parliament or of the provincial legislatures, or the rights of any of them with respect to the exercise of their legislative authority, Parliament and the legislatures, together with the government of Canada and the provincial governments, are committed to

( a ) promoting equal opportunities for the well-being of Canadians;

( B ) furthering economic development to reduce disparity in opportunities; and

( c ) providing essential public services of reasonable quality to all Canadians.

Commitment respecting public services (2) Parliament and the government of Canada are committed to the principle of making equalization payments to ensure that provincial governments have sufficient revenues to provide reasonably comparable levels of public services at reasonably comparable levels of taxation. (96)

Edited April 18, 2009 by Smallc

[ToadBrother]

Yes, we're all technically Canadian but that only goes so far. When it's starts impacting the ability for little Jack or Jane to play hockey this year or for Mom to be able to drive the new Envoy, then it's all out war against whoever is taking the money off the paycheck.

The core disagreement here, as you and others stated in another thread, is that people like me believe that when we work for a paycheck it's ours, whereas you and others believe that it belongs to all of the country. Until that basic belief is addressed, this type of battle will continue without end. The rest of the comments that follow with this type of conversation are simply semantics.

Here's the reality. That paycheque exists solely because there is a larger society stable enough to permit you a regular job. In short, you owe that society some portion of the cheque, because without it, there would be no job, there would be no pay, there would likely not even be money in the sense we've come to expect.

Taxes are a part of life. They have been a part of life pretty much since the beginning of civilization (prior to that, the notion of private property didn't really exist in a meaningful sense). If you don't like paying taxes, then I suggest you head off to Somalia, though I suggest you'll end up spending a fair chunk of your pay on the private army.\

Other than that, suck it up. You owe the greater society your contribution, period. You do have the opportunity every few years to elect a representative. If you feel your taxes are too high, let them know that. This is a democracy, the majority rule, within certain limits.

[tango]

When I worked for a huge multi-national based out of Texas (O&G), even THEY didn't understand what break-up was. I had to drive around in the Chinchaga (Northwestern Alberta) with their head engineer for a week before he realized why rig counts drop at that time. The company that I work for just laid off about another 1300 workers (approx. 600 are in our drilling-related divisions) and when things pick up in late May or June, they'll be back.

The extreme resentment in Alberta for the east is quite real. Depends when you ask and what the person's financial status happens to be. There are so many non-Albertans working in this province that it's hard to get a true picture, but when you've lived here all your life and "the east" takes a huge portion of the paycheck that's meant for your family and gives it to another province - then you'll see resentment if not true hatred surface. The non-Albertan workers tend to be the first ones laid off, and if they haven't made the choice to move here (families and all) then they're actually just travelling workers that go back home when they lose their jobs. The ones that have made the move hold no resentment towards the ROC (generally speaking) until finances hit the rocks. Then they'll even talk down about their home provinces being "leeches".

The "polls" that were held are accurate only so far as the time and place they were held. Was everyone working when asked the questions?

The hatred is not for people, it's for areas of the country that take out money and the government that gave it to them. Personally, I don't know enough people currently living in the east to have made a decision on whether of not I love them, hate them or anything else. I do, however, have an absolute disgust for the province of Kwebek and their financial take-take-take attitude. This is all about money. Why do people from all over the country move to Alberta? Because we have the best weather? Because they want to be sent up north to live in a camp in the Birch Mountain Project? Bitscho Lake project? They like living in a buddy's basement for three years? No. They move here for money to better their lives and the lives of their families. It's all good until someone takes that money.

Whether or not you choose to believe it, that "resentment" you sense, hear and read about is reality. You probably wouldn't see it too much on a one week trip, but it's alive and well. You think I'm "extreme"? I'm normal in the majority of coffee rooms in this province (the NDP city of Edmonton exempted). Just stroll in and mention that the feds are increasing equalization payments from Alberta to wherever, and watch the anger get real big, real quick.

To me this just means that Albertans do not respect their obligations as part of Canada.

Love it or leave it, eh?

And I assure you, we Easterners do take it very personally. The venom from some Albertans is absolutely shocking to us, and very ... um ... tacky.

Edited April 18, 2009 by tango

[ironstone]

Sure makes all those years of the rest of the country being constantly told by that idiot drunk Ralph Klein that Alberta was being soundly financially managed. The reality is that obscenely high oil prices were the only reason Alberta was in such good shape. Take away those oil prices, and the whole house of cards comes down.

No one should gloat about Alberta's problems.Try and remember how all of those billions upon billions of right-wing petro dollars have been flowing out of Alberta and propping up much of the rest of the country.Think of socialist Quebec for one.How about the Atlantic provinces?Modern Canada has always had an enormous,bloated federal public service.A lot of the funds to keep this juggernaut going come from.......Alberta.How about all the money wasted on politically correct initiatives like bilingualism and multiculturalism?Yup,Alberta again.

[Hydraboss]

Here's the reality. That paycheque exists solely because there is a larger society stable enough to permit you a regular job. In short, you owe that society some portion of the cheque, because without it, there would be no job, there would be no pay, there would likely not even be money in the sense we've come to expect.

Taxes are a part of life. They have been a part of life pretty much since the beginning of civilization (prior to that, the notion of private property didn't really exist in a meaningful sense). If you don't like paying taxes, then I suggest you head off to Somalia, though I suggest you'll end up spending a fair chunk of your pay on the private army.\

I understand the reality of paying taxes very well. Perhaps more so than a great portion of Canadians. Never have I complained about paying them (I've complained lots about the amount of them like most Canadians).

What fuels anger is not the paying of taxes, but the uneven distribution and contribution that my province makes for the rest of the "country". In effect, I (and many like me) pay far more than anyone in the east. Our money goes out, but little comes back. The harder I work, the more that someone in Kwebek gets without having to work for it.

And I assure you, we Easterners do take it very personally.

I could not care less if I tried. It actually makes me smile quite a bit.

The venom from some Albertans is absolutely shocking to us

About time.

and very ... um ... tacky.

Once again...I could not care less.

Other than that, suck it up. You owe the greater society your contribution, period.

I assure you, the contribution from my family's income is far, far greater than the vast majority of Canadians. This is not a boast; it is a fact. My personal contribution every month would make most people's mortgage payment and then some.

[Molly]

But even you, Hydraboss, must admit that a healthy portion of the venom coming from Alberta is just a filthy habit in the style of 'Damn the CPR!'

Some portion of the bitching is justified-- I could even say well justified, because the (tyranny of the) majority really comes from a position of blissful unawareness of western concerns and/or hardships. It can be very difficult to break through central Canadian complacency and self-importance to create awareness that Canada extends far beyond, and is much more diverse than the GTA.

But some of it is just bitching for the sake of bitching. Alberta is a far shot from 'picked on'.

[Smallc]

I could even say well justified, because the (tyranny of the) majority really comes from a position of blissful unawareness of western concerns and/or hardships.

I still say that it is far less justified now. I really don't see any ignoring of this part of the country from any level of government right now and I haven't seen it since the turn of the century (when I started following politics).

[Molly]

Um ... let's just say that I saw enough of it before the turn of the century to last me a lifetime.

Honestly, you really only have to watch the NEP saga one time. I have a lot of sympathy with that sensitivity, and the long-standing anger that rose from it. (The most dramatic incident, but still only one instance on a long list.)

I have a standing theory that the real reason the long gun registry hits such a nerve has much less to do with guns than it has to do with reasonable comments/proposals/objections being dismissed out of hand- damn the torpedoes and call you a name. You don't really p*** people off by honestly disagreeing with them. You rile them by dismissing their POV as irrelevant. It has a familiar feel to it.

[jdobbin]

But even you, Hydraboss, must admit that a healthy portion of the venom coming from Alberta is just a filthy habit in the style of 'Damn the CPR!'

You still have people like that and still cursing the CPR.

I know some Canadian veterans who still won't drink Coke because when they were in England during the war it was reserved for U.S. soldiers. My grandfather would stick to Pepsi based on that decision Coke made in the war.

Some people will never vote for the Liberals based on Trudeau and that might be passed on to generations who never ever knew the man.

Edited April 19, 2009 by jdobbin

[Hydraboss]

Um ... let's just say that I saw enough of it before the turn of the century to last me a lifetime.

Honestly, you really only have to watch the NEP saga one time. I have a lot of sympathy with that sensitivity, and the long-standing anger that rose from it. (The most dramatic incident, but still only one instance on a long list.)

I have a standing theory that the real reason the long gun registry hits such a nerve has much less to do with guns than it has to do with reasonable comments/proposals/objections being dismissed out of hand- damn the torpedoes and call you a name. You don't really p*** people off by honestly disagreeing with them. You rile them by dismissing their POV as irrelevant. It has a familiar feel to it.

Molly, you're theory is dead on. Not in all cases, but many. Western Canada's POV has been non-existent for so many years (more than my lifetime) that federal intervention is accepted only when it is made law. Even then, not always.

There are now, and always will be, those who deny the impact of the NEP out here. It matters not if they come up with a thousand versions of history; it has put a "permanent" sever in the "cross-country cord". Some of us watched our familly, friends and neighbors lose everything. Whether of not the NEP caused this, it's legacy will never be forgotten.

You still have people like that and still cursing the CPR.

I know some Canadian veterans who still won't drink Coke because when they were in England during the war it was reserved for U.S. soldiers. My grandfather would stick to Pepsi based on that decision Coke made in the war.

Some people will never vote for the Liberals based on Trudeau and that might be passed on to generations who never ever knew the man.

Dobbin, you are correct on the second point (I'm not familiar with the first). Trudeau was the closest thing to a war criminal that western Canada has ever seen. Now, before you get your panties in a knot, I'm not saying he killed anyone or anything as ridiculous as that. I am saying, though, that I personally know people that would have put a bullet in the man from close range given the chance. There were those that openly cheered when the news showed coverage of the train carrying his coffin. Can't say as I blame them.

These are not light words, nor are they exagerations. They are true. This is the extent to which the Liberals and their policies are outright hated in Alberta. Extreme? Absolutely. Will the tradition continue? Absolutely.

[tango]

No one should gloat about Alberta's problems.Try and remember how all of those billions upon billions of right-wing petro dollars have been flowing out of Alberta and propping up much of the rest of the country.Think of socialist Quebec for one.How about the Atlantic provinces?Modern Canada has always had an enormous,bloated federal public service.A lot of the funds to keep this juggernaut going come from.......Alberta.How about all the money wasted on politically correct initiatives like bilingualism and multiculturalism?Yup,Alberta again.

source?

Because I think this is bunkum, even racist, propaganda.

Show me how the rest of us give 'poor alberta' such a hard time to warrant the contempt we hear from there?

Facts, man. I'm not interested in opinions that are nothing more than prejudice.

Alberta gets my sympathy when Albertans stop disrespecting the rest of Canadians.

Edited April 19, 2009 by tango

[Molly]

Aye, Hydraboss. From where I sat- just across the border in oilpatch Saskatchewan, the anger was directed specifically at Trudeau, and more generally at that central Canadian complacency and overwhelming sense of entitlement- less at the Liberal party.

My own feelings about Trudeau are mixed. I admire some of his actions, but his grasp of and concern for the well-being of Canada ended at Wawa. The fact is Mulroney wasn't better on that front, and this current Conservative flock, the pendulum overswing, aren't even mainstream at home.

I'd happily have Chretien back, warts and all. (What odds that much of Canada would?)

[Molly]

This is a definite thread hijack here, but 'Alberta' is developing a serious reputation for being out-and-out obnoxious- rude, obstructive, arrogant, no pretence to either civility or rationality.... no pretence to fair play. A bit of a snarling dog, aware only of the moment... tied absolutely to the conduct/attitudes of our current federal government, particularly to the most odious, off the edge parts of it...

(This too shall pass.)

I say this not to offend, but to ask whether Albertans are aware of it, and if so, whether they cultivate it (I suspect they do. Some anyway.) , to suggest that it also invites a lot of blowback, since so much of politics is emotional and reactionary, and to wonder why it would be so cultivated? Fact is, it's running provincial credibility into the dumpster.

[ironstone]

source?

Because I think this is bunkum, even racist, propaganda.

Show me how the rest of us give 'poor alberta' such a hard time to warrant the contempt we hear from there?

Facts, man. I'm not interested in opinions that are nothing more than prejudice.

Alberta gets my sympathy when Albertans stop disrespecting the rest of Canadians.

Wow!Are you saying that you have no idea that Canada has been divided along "have"and "have-not" provinces?Let me explain it to you.Some provinces ,mainly Alberta,Ontario and sometimes British Columbia have typically had stronger economies than the rest of the country.By a system of this thing called "transfer payments" money goes from the "haves" to the "have-nots".And how is my previous post in any way,shape or form racist?How would you feel if most of your hard earned money went to someone that will likely never carry their own weight?Quebec got something like 7-8 billion dollars in transfer payments last year.

Typical.You don't like my opinion so you start with the names.The left has such a difficult time with honest debate.

[edit] Equalization payments in Canada – 2007-08

($ millions)

NL PE NS NB QC MB SK BC Total

Equalization 477 294 1,465 1,477 7,160 1,826 226 - 12,925

Per capita $938 $2,118 $1,564 $1,968 $931 $1,543 $230 $0 -

[edit] Criticisms

Equalization payments have mostly been criticized by leaders and residents of the wealthy provinces. The premiers of oil-rich Alberta and of Ontario, with its large manufacturing and service sectors, have criticized a perceived drain on local finances. However, money is collected for equalization payments by federal taxation and is collected regardless of whether or not the province is a 'have' or 'have not' province. The difference is whether the provincial government receives money from the federal treasury. Residents of Alberta and Ontario are not necessarily taxed more by the federal government. However, since those provincial governments receive less total dollars per capita from the federal government than 'have not' provinces, they are required to collect more taxes from their residents than otherwise would be required if the equalization program did not exist.

Normally, under the equalization scheme, equalization payments go down a dollar for every dollar increase in a province's treasury. Under the current formula, a have-not province loses a dollar in equalization for every dollar it makes from royalties off the sale of its natural resources, therefore creating a disincentive for developing those resources. An exception is the deal struck by Danny Williams, the premier of Newfoundland and Labrador, for their natural resource exploration and revenues. Typically a 'have-not' province, they are exempt for a period of time from the traditional calculations.

A March 2007 paper published by the Fraser Institute questioned the constitutionality of the equalization payment system.[3]