Pirates are a growing problem!

bush_cheney2004 · April 20, 2009

Many of the pirates are teenagers from fishing and farming communities that can't fish or farm anymore.

Great...then international piracy and kidnapping is the only solution. It's the first thing our ex-farmers think of in Minnesota...international piracy!

If we just kill them all, are we any better than them?
Are we worse?

Better...we would still be alive...they would be dead.

In fact, they have a code of honour about not harming anyone ... or at least they did ...
but likely not anymore.

Then it wasn't much of a code, eh?

It is a unique dilemma facing those who face the pirates.
With no easy solutions.

The solution is easy....just takes more resources.

Life is complex like that and succumbing to immediate revenge-aggression is seldom if ever the best response, unless one is immediately threatened, of course.

Of course...LOL!

But it's pretty much guaranteed to bring the worst consequences.
Now they will kill.

Kissing pirate ass is less acceptable.

Edited April 20, 2009 by bush_cheney2004

benny · April 20, 2009

It is a unique dilemma facing those who face the pirates.
With no easy solutions.

Life is complex like that and succumbing to immediate revenge-aggression is seldom if ever the best response, unless one is immediately threatened, of course.

It is about time Westerners put to use all the movies they like so much to watch where brave people are talking very efficiently to gangsters who hold them at the point of their guns.

tango · April 20, 2009

talking very efficiently

Great idea!

:lol:

pirate update

NATO forces foil pirate attack on tanker

Sun Apr 19, 2009 4:55pm EDT

FACTBOX: Ships held by Somali pirates

12:59pm EDT

Gunmen kidnap two foreign aid workers in Somalia

4:30pm EDT

By Alison Bevege

ON BOARD NRB CORTE-REAL (Reuters) - NATO forces foiled an attack by Somali pirates on a Norwegian oil tanker, and briefly detained seven gunmen after hunting them down under cover of darkness, NATO officials said on Sunday.

It was the latest assault by sea gangs from Somalia who have hijacked dozens of ships, taken hundreds of sailors hostage and made tens of millions of dollars in ransoms -- defying an unprecedented deployment by foreign navies in the region.

The violence has disrupted aid supplies, driven up insurance costs and forced some companies to route cargo round South Africa.

Michael McWhinnie, a spokesman on the Canadian warship Winnipeg, said it, a British naval supply ship and U.S. warship Halyburton all responded after pirates attacked the 80,000-tonne MV Front Ardenne in the Gulf of Aden late Saturday.

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE53I0Q920090419

Edited April 20, 2009 by tango

benny · April 20, 2009

Gunmen kidnap two foreign aid workers in Somalia

The young guns of Somalia are much like the young guys here: they are way too proud to accept help.

Rue · April 20, 2009

true............but if these ship had the ability to blow these maggots out of the water then the pirates would give it up!

The Indian Navy apparently had no problem with your suggestion.

Currently the international law works like this; the navy ship of a particular country can only arrest pirates if they are attacking a ship of its own country, so this is why when the Canadian navy ship caught the pirates trying to attack the Norweigan ship they could not arrest the little douche bags.

All they can do is get rid of their guns and weapons and send them on their way at the present time.

However if those same douche bag pirates had civilians as hostages they are allowed to kill them to save the hostages.

The reason this current idiocy exists because there is no international law as to piracy. For there to be one, a treaty would have to be drafted and then signed by nations before parties to that treaty could then enforce the international laws set out in the treaty as to piracy-until that happens, a navy ship can only arrest pirates attacking its own nation's ships and remember many ships carry flags of convenience such as Panama which has far less regulations then say France or the U.S. and so the French Navy could not arrest douche bag pirates attacking a Panama flag ship even if it is full of French crew.

To date the pirates who have been killed by the French, and Americans were killed because they had hostages and India blew up a pirate ship precisely because it was attacking an Indian ship.

Now I know some of you believe we need an international law that would allow navies to blow the pirates out of the waters.

I would imagine if this ever does lead to an international treaty the treaty would state pirates should only be killed if endangering hostages or as a last resort and instead the navy must take all steps to try first capture the pirates given the fact we are such civilized people.

That said here's a hint, don't go near an Indian, French or American ship.

One reason why ships do not carry armed crews is because the ship owners can't get insurance if they do this.

Speak to Lloyd's. I do not make the underwriting rules.

Personally I would arm the ships with some ex soldiers.

However from what I understand most ports of call's countries won't allow merchant ships to enter if they are armed-unless of course they change their domestic laws.

One thing is for sure. The law as it is, is a joke.

When a bunch of douche bags can hijack a huge ship with a couple of grenade launchers its ridiculous.

For those that feel sorry for the pirates I have this to say-they hijack ships bringing food to starving people-save your tears for the people whose food they robbed.

In the interim the question is will any nation go into Somalia and blow up some pirate sites. Don't count on it. No one wants the political and moral baggage associated with such a move and the outcries that poor innocent people were killed forced to piracy because they were starving or in the alternative innocent fisherman were killed mistaken as pirates.

Edited April 20, 2009 by Rue

benny · April 20, 2009

remember many ships carry flags of convenience such as Panama which has far less regulations then say France or the U.S. and so the French Navy could not arrest douche bag pirates attacking a Panama flag ship even if it is full of French crew.

So, Paul Martin and his three sons are really the big fishes we should go after here since the Canadian Navy would not been allowed to catch the little fishes attacking ships belonging to Canada Steamship Lines.

GostHacked · April 20, 2009

The straight between Indonesia and Malaysia is much worse than whatever those Somalis are doing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piracy_in_the_Strait_of_Malacca

benny · April 20, 2009

The straight between Indonesia and Malaysia is much worse than whatever those Somalis are doing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piracy_in_the_Strait_of_Malacca

In terms of historical (commercial and military) significance, no strait will ever comes close to the Istanbul strait.

jbg · April 21, 2009

Currently the international law works like this; the navy ship of a particular country can only arrest pirates if they are attacking a ship of its own country, so this is why when the Canadian navy ship caught the pirates trying to attack the Norweigan ship they could not arrest the little douche bags.
All they can do is get rid of their guns and weapons and send them on their way at the present time.

However if those same douche bag pirates had civilians as hostages they are allowed to kill them to save the hostages.

The reason this current idiocy exists because there is no international law as to piracy. For there to be one, a treaty would have to be drafted and then signed by nations before parties to that treaty could then enforce the international laws set out in the treaty as to piracy-until that happens, a navy ship can only arrest pirates attacking its own nation's ships and remember many ships carry flags of convenience such as Panama which has far less regulations then say France or the U.S. and so the French Navy could not arrest douche bag pirates attacking a Panama flag ship even if it is full of French crew.

This is Exhibit "A" as to what is wrong with multilateralism and so-called "international law". The pirates have such ridiculous constraints.

benny · April 21, 2009

This is Exhibit "A" as to what is wrong with multilateralism and so-called "international law". The pirates have such ridiculous constraints.

The term "the law" signifies the principles upon which society is based, designating a mode of collective conduct based upon a set of prohibitions. However, the rule of the law conceals an inherent unruliness which is precisely the violence by which it established itself as law in the first place. "At the beginning" of the law, there is a certain "outlaw", a violence which coincides with the act itself of the establishment of the reign of the law... The illegitimate violence by which law sustains itself must be concealed at any price, because this concealment is the positive condition of the functioning of the law.

The authority of the law stems not from some concept of justice, but because it is the law. Which is to say that the origin of the law can be found in the tautology: "the law is the law". If the law is to function properly, however, we must experience it as just. It is only when the law breaks down, when it becomes a law unto itself, and it reaches the limits of itself, do we glimpse those limits and acknowledge its contingency by reference to the phrase "the law is the law". In other words: The Law (makers) cannot and should not question itself. Forget about wishing more laws because laws have necessarily an obscene side to them.

http://www.lacan.com/zizekchro1.htm

jbg · April 21, 2009

The term "the law" signifies the principles upon which society is based, designating a mode of collective conduct based upon a set of prohibitions.

Agreed. Except there are requirements as well as prohibitions, to make sure that everyone contributes to society. Otherwise we'd have nothing but indolent freeloaders and no producers, and everyone would be impoverished or starving.

However, the rule of the law conceals an inherent unruliness which is precisely the violence by which it established itself as law in the first place. "At the beginning" of the law, there is a certain "outlaw", a violence which coincides with the act itself of the establishment of the reign of the law... The illegitimate violence by which law sustains itself must be concealed at any price, because this concealment is the positive condition of the functioning of the law.

Could you clarify or are you just babbling?

Without rule of law you simply have violence, whether you call it legitimate or illegitmate.

The authority of the law stems not from some concept of justice, but because it is the law. Which is to say that the origin of the law can be found in the tautology: "the law is the law".

That's about as coherent as "a proof is a proof".

[if] law is to function properly, however, we must experience it as just. It is only when the law breaks down, when it becomes a law unto itself, and it reaches the limits of itself, do we glimpse those limits and acknowledge its contingency by reference to the phrase "the law is the law". In other words: The Law (makers) cannot and should not question itself. Forget about wishing more laws because laws have necessarily an obscene side to them.
http://www.lacan.com/zizekchro1.htm

Obviously you are way too intelligent for me to understand.

benny · April 21, 2009

Could you clarify or are you just babbling?

I'm just pasting.

jbg · April 21, 2009

I'm just pasting.

Huh?

benny · April 21, 2009

Huh?

Cut and paste.

jbg · April 21, 2009

Cut and paste.

What is the significance of what you cut and pasted? Do you understand it? I don't.

benny · April 21, 2009

What is the significance of what you cut and pasted? Do you understand it? I don't.

The law is internally, constitutively divided. Law is split between the external social law and the obscene superego supplement. Superego is the necessary, unavoidable underside of the social laws that hold together the community. Nevertheless, law can serve potentially liberatory ends. It can work as a repository for aspirations for something better.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/t576781u81nj6m4h/

Oleg Bach · April 21, 2009

Who gives a damned about a few round faced Somalis puttering about in an inflateable - as if they are a threat...a full size ship is the high ground at sea - mount one 50 calibre machine gun on the highest point - hire ONE expert at a thousand dollars a weak plus a bonus - and perch him on top of the ship - Once the pirates appear - hail them once to turn away - and if they don't === boom boom boom gone....This is not a big deal - these pirates for the most part are half starved teen agers with one adult leader....keep this simple - when they approach - give them a choice - turn away - or be chopped to bits by a thousand rounds of lead. Politicans are attempting to become heros and want the P R that pirates provide - give no booty to pirates and no glory to some cheeze ball leader that gives orders to kill them - just kill them quietly and don't make it public - Problem solved ========================and send Somali some damned food.

benny · April 21, 2009

Who gives a damned about a few round faced Somalis puttering about in an inflateable - as if they are a threat...a full size ship is the high ground at sea - mount one 50 calibre machine gun on the highest point - hire ONE expert at a thousand dollars a weak plus a bonus - and perch him on top of the ship - Once the pirates appear - hail them once to turn away - and if they don't === boom boom boom gone....This is not a big deal - these pirates for the most part are half starved teen agers with one adult leader....keep this simple - when they approach - give them a choice - turn away - or be chopped to bits by a thousand rounds of lead. Politicans are attempting to become heros and want the P R that pirates provide - give no booty to pirates and no glory to some cheeze ball leader that gives orders to kill them - just kill them quietly and don't make it public - Problem solved ========================and send Somali some damned food.

If so, expect holes in hulls.

Oleg Bach · April 21, 2009

If so, expect holes in hulls.

The hole has to be below the water line...also - you do not let them get that close - You have a powerful public address system and a message in their native tounge - turn about or die....a rocket propelled grenade is short range - and the arms carried by these pirates are not powerful enough - a ship can limp back to port - they can not.....You have to make it public....come near our ships and you die - BUT that would be politically incorrect - and the UN - would say we are tramatizing the poor pirates... :lol: ...........Kill them - give them a choice - behave or die...I would say that's fair - our cops on our streets give our population the same choice - show a weapon - and they shoot you - that keeps sane people behaving well. Pirates are sane.

benny · April 21, 2009

The hole has to be below the water line...also - you do not let them get that close - You have a powerful public address system and a message in their native tounge - turn about or die....a rocket propelled grenade is short range - and the arms carried by these pirates are not powerful enough - a ship can limp back to port - they can not.....You have to make it public....come near our ships and you die - BUT that would be politically incorrect - and the UN - would say we are tramatizing the poor pirates... ...........Kill them - give them a choice - behave or die...I would say that's fair - our cops on our streets give our population the same choice - show a weapon - and they shoot you - that keeps sane people behaving well. Pirates are sane.

When Thetis dipped Achilles in the river Styx, she was certain he would become war-proof.

Oleg Bach · April 21, 2009

When Thetis dipped Achilles in the river Styx, she was certain he would become war-proof.

Put some armour on the heal....we know better now...Pirates like terrorist depend on the manipulation of our emotion and fear...just like politicans..just like being in a court room - ONCE they discover you are fearless - they are powerless.

benny · April 21, 2009

Put some armour on the heal....we know better now...Pirates like terrorist depend on the manipulation of our emotion and fear...just like politicans..just like being in a court room - ONCE they discover you are fearless - they are powerless.

Yes, we are so very old pirates and they are so very young ones.

JB Globe · May 6, 2009

If these people are desparately poor where are they getting their rather sophisticated radar, navigation and fighting equipment from?

I wasn't making the point that personal poverty is primarily driving Somali piracy, although it would be hard to find a pirate who was born wealthy.

My point is that a failed state with no ability to enforce a non-existent legal system that has valuable cargo moving past it, and has a history of warlord in-fighting is a breeding ground for pirates.

The failed state is the root of the problem, the personal poverty is just the ammunition that keeps the ranks of the pirates steady.

And btw - the pirates were initially tied to warlords, who sent gunmen to the coast to find fishermen to captain the boats. The warlords put up the startup money and as the pirates started to catch a few Yemini fishing boats, they used the ransom money to buy better equipment to take on larger boats, which netted more money, which eventually allowed them to nab things like GPS devices. Eventually, the pirates grew so strong they could break their warlord connections and operate independently.