Jews fleeing France again

[moderateamericain]

The other ones were convinced by education of the intellectual arguments in favor of Islam, which is the reason for my deep, abiding respect for radical Arab Muslims.

well hold on a second, the Arab world was not always so intolerant, it was not until the coming of Islam that the middle east decended into the barbaric society we see today. Furthermore, ancient cultures like the Persians were far more tolerant then say the Greeks over conquered cultures, even allowing some to keep their native practices. The intolerant culture we see today stems from the fudementalism of Islam, the best thing that could happen for the middle east is the death of the religion of Islam.

[dub]

well hold on a second, the Arab world was not always so intolerant, it was not until the coming of Islam that the middle east decended into the barbaric society we see today. Furthermore, ancient cultures like the Persians were far more tolerant then say the Greeks over conquered cultures, even allowing some to keep their native practices. The intolerant culture we see today stems from the fudementalism of Islam, the best thing that could happen for the middle east is the death of the religion of Islam.

which country has the second largest jewish population in the middle east?

answer: the islamic republic of iran.

this is not about intolerance for jews or christians, this is about intolerance for the zionist ideology.

zionism should be intolerated just as much as wahhabism should be.

the best thing to happen to the middle east is for the west to not support the zionist ideology.

[DogOnPorch]

which country has the second largest jewish population in the middle east?

answer: the islamic republic of iran.

this is not about intolerance for jews or christians, this is about intolerance for the zionist ideology.

zionism should be intolerated just as much as wahhabism should be.

the best thing to happen to the middle east is for the west to not support the zionist ideology.

There are more Iranian Jews living in Israel than Iran.

[dub]

There are more Iranian Jews living in Israel than Iran.

what is your point?

Edited May 20, 2009 by dub

[DogOnPorch]

what is your point?

What's yours?

[dub]

What's yours?

that islam, in general, is tolerant towards judaism and christianity.

it's zionism that they seem to have a problem with.

so what's your point?

[DogOnPorch]

that islam, in general, is tolerant towards judaism and christianity.

it's zionism that they seem to have a problem with.

so what's your point?

The majority left after 1979. Travel permits are now only issued to family members one at a time to discourage further emmigration...especially to Israel. Multiple travel permits to Iranian Jews are almost always denied. The penalty for helping Jews emmigrate to Israel or aiding Israel in any way is...guess what?...death, of course.

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2004/35497.htm

That's pretty tolerant, I guess...

[JB Globe]

There is simply no basis to the idea that Muslim societies are, in the grand scheme of things, inherently more anti-semitic than Christian ones USED TO BE LONG AGO.

The Holocaust did not happen "long ago" in historical terms.

Additionally, antisemitism is still rampant in Christian-majority countries like Russia.

Christians aren't special, sorry to break it to you. They have as much a history of antisemitism as Muslims do.

[JB Globe]

Google Islamic Jewish persecution and Koran/Jews. Officially, they're sub human and that's well before the Palestinian Issue.

No, how about you do your own homework and google it yourself?

While you're at it, read some articles from objective sources on Dhimmi status, and then compare the experience of Jews living under it to the experiences of Jews living in Christian Europe in the Middle Ages. You'll quickly see that up until the last part of this past century it was probably a better idea to live in a Muslim nation than a Christian one, because at least in a Muslim one you had legal rights.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi#Treatment_of_Dhimmis

Dhimmis were allowed to "practice their religion, subject to certain conditions, and to enjoy a measure of communal autonomy" and guaranteed their personal safety and security of property. Taxation from the perspective of dhimmis who came under the Muslim rule, was "a concrete continuation of the taxes paid to earlier regimes"[10] (but now lower under the Muslim rule[11][12][13]) and from the point of view of the Muslim conqueror was a material proof of the dhimmi's subjection.[10] Various restrictions and legal disabilities were placed on Dhimmis, such as prohibitions against bearing arms or giving testimony in courts in cases involving Muslims.[14] Most of these disabilities had a social and symbolic rather than a tangible and practical character.[15] Although persecution in the form of violent and active repression was rare and atypical,[16] the limitations on the rights of dhimmis made them vulnerable to the whims of rulers and the violence of mobs.[17]

While recognizing the inferior status of dhimmis under Islamic rule, Bernard Lewis states that in most respects their position "was very much easier than that of non-Christians or even of heretical Christians in medieval Europe."[18] For example, dhimmis rarely faced martyrdom or exile, or forced compulsion to change their religion, and with certain exceptions they were free in their choice of residence and profession.[19] Yet there were constraints; the Muslims reserved the right to control the military and agriculture, leaving trade and business to the dhimmis.[20]

[JB Globe]

In fact anti-semitism and for that matter prejudice against all other non Muslims including Christians, Bahaiis, Hindus, was and remains an essential element of how Muslim is preached and practiced and to try suggest there is no such thing as anti-semitism in the Middle East, it is all just anti-Israel rhetoric is absurd.

Let's deal with the last bit of that first - please work on your reading comprehension: I never stated there is no antisemitism outside of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, what I said (about 20 times now) is that Islam is no more inherently antisemitic than Christianity.

So basically, Muslims have pretty much the same capacity to be antisemitic as Christians do. Scripture-wise I would argue Christians have more leeway than this, because at least there is legal protection in the Qu'ran, can't say the same about the bible. I don't know what's making people more upset - the fact that I'm arguing against this bogeyman hypothesis of Islam, or that I'm arguing against this myth they've built up about Christianity that it was so much nicer to us Jews than Islam was.

And for the record, this is a view which is shared by Bernard Lewis as well as Jewish historians such as Claude Cahen, Shelomo Dov Goitein and Martin Kramer.

I also share Angus' disdain for some of you trying to hide behind the word "inherent". Talk about a toothless word. What do some of you mean when you say "inherent", do you even know?

Yes, I absolutely know what it means.

Interestingly in Constitutional Law no one has a clue what it means so before you rag on Argus about it, some of you do need to provide a definition that doesn't allow you to have it mean whatever you want it to mean.

in·her·ent - involved in the constitution or essential character of something : belonging by nature or habit.

Meaning that antisemitism is no more characteristic of Islam than it is Christianity.

I may not agree with Argus on many things, but he does not mince his words and I agree with him that mincing words by trying to use words like inherent to putter around an issue and play semantics is pointless in this case.

Actually I'm being pretty straightforward about all of this, maybe this goes back to your reading comprehension again.

[JB Globe]

Here are some web-sites that repudiate the myth that anti-semitism in the Middle East is only related to Israel and being anti-Zionist:

Well, thank you for repudiating that myth I guess, but again, I never made the absolute statement that antisemitism is only related to Is & Pal.

[JB Globe]

The point I'm making is how absurd it is to draw out comparisons from our past to try to excuse their present.

There's a difference between excusing something and putting something in perspective.

What I'm saying is that if the Palestinian-Israeli situation gets resolved peacefully in a way that both sides are mostly happy with, there will be both a regional and worldwide significant decrease in antisemitism in Muslim countries.

I also resent this myth that you seem to subscribe to that Christian countries (or Chrisian-majority countries) were better to Jews than Muslim nations were. You can really only say that about this past half-century and this only happened because of the Holocaust. It took the slaughter of millions to illustrate to Christians where the endgame of antisemitism is, and for them to start making an effort to stamp it out. It didn't happen because a bunch of Christians felt altruistic and went about abolishing it like slavery. Guilt had a lot to do with it, people were ashamed that they subscribed to a way of thinking that had it's endgame in Auschwitz. The cynical view to take would be that Western civilization needed to murder a few million Jews and others before it could take a look at the photographs and think "Oh, this is much more horrible than I thought, we should stop now, I think."

Considering this perspective, I don't see how some of you can sit here and act all high-and-mighty when it comes to the issue of antisemitism in Christianity and Western Civilization.

Edited May 20, 2009 by JB Globe

[dub]

The majority left after 1979.

so did many other jews from other countries. they left because it's a jewish state that gives special privileges to jews. not to mention the monetary compensation offered to a jew who immigrates to israel.

Travel permits are now only issued to family members one at a time to discourage further emmigration...especially to Israel. Multiple travel permits to Iranian Jews are almost always denied.

so what you're saying is that Iran allows travel to israel. thanks for shoving your own foot in your mouth.

the jews in iran have been offered a pretty good compensation to move to israel, but many, even though they're able to immigrate to israel, have decided to remain in iran. what does that tell you about iran and its views on jews?

i'm curious, how much do you know about travel restrictions or immigration restrictions for muslims to israel? or is that the sort of topic that you don't like to talk about?

this post is another reminder that facts keep kicking your ass.

Edited May 20, 2009 by dub

[DogOnPorch]

so did many other jews from other countries. they left because it's a jewish state that gives special privileges to jews. not to mention the monetary compensation offered to a jew who immigrates to israel.

so what you're saying is that Iran allows travel to israel. thanks for shoving your own foot in your mouth.

the jews in iran have been offered a pretty good compensation to move to israel, but many, even though they're able to immigrate to israel, have decided to remain in iran. what does that tell you about iran and its views on jews?

i'm curious, how much do you know about travel restrictions or immigration restrictions for muslims to israel? or is that the sort of topic that you don't like to talk about?

A Jewish family in Iran can only get a single travel permit. Uncle Oli sick in Paris? The whole family can't go...only Aunti Zama. The Iranian government noticed that if you let entire Jewish families out of Iran at the same time, there's a dang good chance theyz ain't comin' back. Sure, some Jews are happy in Iran. But the majority weren't...they left.

Traveling or moving to Israel is against Iranian law if I'm not mistaken...with severe punishment in many cases if caught.

When's the last time you've been to Mecca? I can't go as I'm not Muslim. When's the last time you've been to Israel? Even though I'm not Jewish, I'd be welcomed with open arms. Probably you too...unless they've seen your posts...lol.

[dub]

A Jewish family in Iran can only get a single travel permit. Uncle Oli sick in Paris? The whole family can't go...only Aunti Zama. The Iranian government noticed that if you let entire Jewish families out of Iran at the same time, there's a dang good chance theyz ain't comin' back. Sure, some Jews are happy in Iran. But the majority weren't...they left.

Traveling or moving to Israel is against Iranian law if I'm not mistaken...with severe punishment in many cases if caught.

When's the last time you've been to Mecca? I can't go as I'm not Muslim. When's the last time you've been to Israel? Even though I'm not Jewish, I'd be welcomed with open arms. Probably you too...unless they've seen your posts...lol.

more drivel.

how about an article from bbcnews to kick your ass:

"Whatever they say abroad is lies - we are comfortable in Iran - if you're not political and don't bother them then they won't bother you," he explains.

His customer, middle-aged housewife Giti agrees, saying she can easily talk to her two sons in Tel Aviv on the telephone and visit them.

"It's not a problem coming and going; I went to Israel once through Turkey and once through Cyprus and it was not problem at all," she says.

Gone are the early days of the Iranian revolution when Jews - and many Muslims - found it hard to get passports to travel abroad.

"In the last five years the government has allowed Iranian Jews to go to Israel freely, meet their families and when they come back they face no problems," says Mr Mohtamed.

He says there is also a way for Iranian Jews who emigrated to Israel decades ago to return to Iran and see their families.

"They can now go to the Iranian consul general in Istanbul and get Iranian identity documents and freely come to Iran," he says.

The exodus of Jews from Iran seems to have slowed down - the first wave was in the 1950s and the second was in the wake of the Iranian Revolution.

Those Jews who remain in Iran seem to have made a conscious decision to stay put.

"We are Iranian and we have been living in Iran for more than 3,000 years," says the Jewish hospital director Ciamak Morsathegh.

"I am not going to leave - I will stay in Iran under any conditions," he declares.

[dub]

here is another article about iranian jews which you will not like to see:

Iran's Jews spurn cash lure to emigrate to Israel

ran's Jews have given the country a loyalty pledge in the face of cash offers aimed at encouraging them to move to Israel, the arch-enemy of its Islamic rulers.

The incentives - ranging from £5,000 a person to £30,000 for families - were offered from a special fund established by wealthy expatriate Jews in an effort to prompt a mass migration to Israel among Iran's 25,000-strong Jewish community. The offers were made with Israel's official blessing and were additional to the usual state packages it provides to Jews emigrating from the diaspora.

However, the Society of Iranian Jews dismissed them as "immature political enticements" and said their national identity was not for sale.

"The identity of Iranian Jews is not tradable for any amount of money," the society said in a statement. "Iranian Jews are among the most ancient Iranians. Iran's Jews love their Iranian identity and their culture, so threats and this immature political enticement will not achieve their aim of wiping out the identity of Iranian Jews."

The Israeli newspaper Ma'ariv reported that the incentives had been doubled after offers of £2,500 a head failed to attract any Iranian Jews to leave for Israel.

[DogOnPorch]

dum: more drivel.

US State Dept drivel.

Re: Jews in Iran.

Journeyman Pictures: Jews Undercover: Australia 2004

[CANADIEN]

well hold on a second, the Arab world was not always so intolerant, it was not until the coming of Islam that the middle east decended into the barbaric society we see today. Furthermore, ancient cultures like the Persians were far more tolerant then say the Greeks over conquered cultures, even allowing some to keep their native practices. The intolerant culture we see today stems from the fudementalism of Islam, the best thing that could happen for the middle east is the death of the religion of Islam.

Want barbarism? Ever heard of the Assyrians, the Babylonians, etc? Or the massacr eof most of the Cannanite population by the Israelites under Joshua's? There have been less than a few hundred years of peace in that region oer the last 8 000 years, and you'll fnd a lot moe than you'd think AFTER the Muslim conquest?

Want intolerance? Most Christian and - yes - Jewish populations of the Middle East welcomed the relative religious freedom that resulted from the Muslim conquest in the 7th century. Was a change from the persecution the had endured as the "wrong types" of Christians or "Jesus-killers".

Actually, no need to look further than you.

[DogOnPorch]

duk: ...so did many other jews from other countries. they left because it's a jewish state that gives special privileges to jews. not to mention the monetary compensation offered to a jew who immigrates to israel.

I believe a Jewish non-profit group (Nefesh B'Nefesh) offers grants (up to $10,000 US in rare cases) for Jews to immigrate from US/UK to Israel. That's a bit different than the government. I also see nothing wrong with it. American agencies do the same thing to our doctors/nurses/other professionals all the time.

The big rush by Jews to move to Israel ended quite some time ago. This combined with a typically high Israeli Muslim Arab birth rate will eventually reduce the Jewish majority over time. Some Jewish/Israelis groups are taking action to reverse this. This is what has your Totenkopf in a twirl? Sorry...I guess thems dirty Joooos ain't gunna role over 'n die by default, either.

[Oleg Bach]

The Jews should stop running and stand and join the human race- instead of fleeing to Israel - where in time - they could be betrayed and contained and holocausted once more to appease those that wish to shift all blame and problem to the tradtional scape goats.. IF they are fleeing France because France has displace even their own Christians and Jews with Islamics and gayified secularists..then shame on the worms - the Jews should hold their ground as should the Christians..running - there is no place to go - the running must stop.

[jbg]

The Jews should stop running and stand and join the human race- instead of fleeing to Israel - where in time - they could be betrayed and contained and holocausted once more to appease those that wish to shift all blame and problem to the tradtional scape goats.

The Jews have "been there done that". They "stood their ground" in Europe (or at least 8 million or so did). The ones that fled to the U.S. and Canada (and to a lesser extent Australia and what is now the State of Israel) during the period up to the beginning of WW I are alive; the ones that stayed, by and large, are not.

[jbg]

that islam, in general, is tolerant towards judaism and christianity.

Tolerant under conditions of "dhimmitude".