capricorn Posted April 5, 2009 Report Share Posted April 5, 2009 Refusing to issue a passport? Excuse me, but if he's a Canadian citizen, get off the pot and issue the (bleep)ing passport. It may or may not help him get out of there, but it IS his right. I don't think being a Canadian citizen automatically gives you a right to a passport. For example, if the authorities have proof that a parent involved in a custody battle plans to kidnap his/her children and flee the country, should the passport be issued? If a person has been charged with a serious crime, should that person be issued a passport which could enable fleeing the country before trial? Some rights are not absolute. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdobbin Posted April 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 5, 2009 (edited) If a person has been charged with a serious crime, should that person be issued a passport which could enable fleeing the country before trial? What crime? What about habeus corpus? What about the right of return of a citizen? If this guy shows up at the border, you think he should be turned away? That is unprecedented. How is this decision being made? Are you satisfied that the government is acting accordingly with no evidence needed to do it? Has he had his citizenship stripped away? On what basis? Where is the CSIS or RCMP reports? They say they have nothing. Where is government report? Why are we not demanding his arrest in Canada is he is a threat to the world? Edited April 5, 2009 by jdobbin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capricorn Posted April 5, 2009 Report Share Posted April 5, 2009 What crime? What about habeus corpus? I was responding to Molly's comment about the right to a passport and not about this particular case. Courts have been known to request defendants to turn over their passport if there is a flight risk. The right to a passport is not absolute. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdobbin Posted April 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 5, 2009 Courts have been known to request defendants to turn over their passport if there is a flight risk. The right to a passport is not absolute. That's all well and good. The issue now is whether the government has the right of refusing a Canadian right of return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Molly Posted April 5, 2009 Report Share Posted April 5, 2009 (edited) It amounts to refusing to acknowledge, much less assert, that he is in fact a citizen. His right to that acknowledgement IS absolute. Point granted... but this (in)action is not preventing him from fleeing our jurisdiction. It is denying it to him. Edited April 5, 2009 by Molly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny Posted April 5, 2009 Report Share Posted April 5, 2009 Because of past misadventures, more and more lottery agencies are suspicious about the personal capacities of big prize winners to continue to act wisely. Since the Canadian citizenship is one of the most valuable citizenships in the World, we may compare Abousfian Abdelrazik to a big prize lottery winner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capricorn Posted April 5, 2009 Report Share Posted April 5, 2009 According to the facts of this case, it seems there is a web of complicity in keeping Abdelrazik from traveling to Canada. This includes the United Nations, US security services and Canadian security services. Even the airlines had a hand in refusing his travel. Senior Canadian intelligence officials warned against allowing Abousfian Abdelrazik, a Canadian citizen, to return home from Sudan because it could upset the Bush administration, classified documents reveal."Senior government of Canada officials should be mindful of the potential reaction of our U.S. counterparts to Abdelrazik's return to Canada as he is on the U.S. no-fly list," intelligence officials say in documents in the possession of The Globe and Mail. "Continued co-operation between Canada and the U.S. in the matters of security is essential. We will need to continue to work closely on issues related to the Security of North America, including the case of Mr. Abdelrazik," the document says. --- The Abdelrazik documents - prepared by senior intelligence and security officials in Transport Canada, the unit that creates and maintains Canada's own version of the terrorist "no-fly" list - make clear that it was the U.S. list that kept Mr. Abdelrazik from returning to Canada when he was released from prison three years ago. That appears to contradict the explanation by former foreign minister Maxime Bernier who told the House of Commons that "Mr. Abdelrazik is currently not able to return to Canada on his own because he is on the United Nations' list of suspected terrorists." --- Most international airlines are unwilling to risk sanctions by the Bush administration and refuse to carry anyone on the U.S. blacklist even if they are flying a route that doesn't involve a U.S. stop or airspace. Meanwhile, the Canadian government made it clear to Air Canada that even without its own list, it didn't want the airline to allow Mr. Abdelrazik on its flights. --- The classified Transport Canada documents show the Bush administration labelled Mr. Abdelrazik a terrorist threat on July 20, 2007, the same day he was released by the Sudanese government, which said it could no longer imprison a man they deemed to be innocent. He was also put on the Bush administration's Transportation Security Administration's "no-fly" blacklist at the same time. Two days later, Lufthansa and Air Canada refused to allow Mr. Abdelrazik to fly home to Montreal from Khartoum via Frankfurt. That was before Canada had its own no-fly list and more than a year before the Bush administration succeeded in adding Mr. Abdelrazik's name to the UN list of alleged al-Qaeda operatives. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...NStory/National Thus: - It appears Abdelrazik is not guilty of anything. - The government attempted to have Abdelrazik's name removed from the UN no-fly list. The US objected so the UN refused on that ground. - In the event that the UN had agreed to remove his name, the US placed Abdelrazik on their own no-fly list to continue preventing him from travel the US or over US airspace. - The Canadian government is reluctant to facilitate air travel for Abdelrazik for fear of alienating US security personnel. The government drew the airlines into preventing travel back to Canada. - Abdelrazik has been camped out at the Canadian Embassy and he is offered consular services minus granting him a passport. It's incomprehensible why Cannon would place the onus squarely on Abdelrazik to act on his own to get his name of the no-fly lists. What Cannon needs to do is lobby the new US administration to help resolve this matter. Surely Obama would be willing to correct a wrong perpetrated by the Bush administration. And if the Obama administration clears Abdelrazik, the UN will surely follow suit. Whenever Abdelrazik makes it back to Canada all that will be left is to write Abdelrazik a $10M cheque compliments of the taxpayer and arrange for all the psychiatric help he needs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted April 5, 2009 Report Share Posted April 5, 2009 It's incomprehensible why Cannon would place the onus squarely on Abdelrazik to act on his own to get his name of the no-fly lists. What Cannon needs to do is lobby the new US administration to help resolve this matter. Surely Obama would be willing to correct a wrong perpetrated by the Bush administration. And if the Obama administration clears Abdelrazik, the UN will surely follow suit. That is not how it works...the Obama administration will not clear Abdelrazik just because of a "wrong perpetrated by the Bush administration". Is Muher Arar vacationing in Florida or Las Vegas yet? The "matter" is surely more interesting than just poor victim Abdelrazik's version of the story. Whenever Abdelrazik makes it back to Canada all that will be left is to write Abdelrazik a $10M cheque compliments of the taxpayer and arrange for all the psychiatric help he needs. Of course.....Abdelrazik is already working on his gripping tears and torture narrative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny Posted April 5, 2009 Report Share Posted April 5, 2009 Whenever Abdelrazik makes it back to Canada all that will be left is to write Abdelrazik a $10M cheque compliments of the taxpayer and arrange for all the psychiatric help he needs. What you must understand is that determining what is the monetary value of human lives is next to impossible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capricorn Posted April 5, 2009 Report Share Posted April 5, 2009 What you must understand is that determining what is the monetary value of human lives is next to impossible. What is it that I wrote that makes you think I don't understand that concept? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capricorn Posted April 5, 2009 Report Share Posted April 5, 2009 That is not how it works...the Obama administration will not clear Abdelrazik just because of a "wrong perpetrated by the Bush administration". WHAT????? You mean to say Obama is not omnipotent? Well I'll be...... The "matter" is surely more interesting than just poor victim Abdelrazik's version of the story. b_c, you're taking all the fun out of speculation based on incomplete and one-sided information. Don't you know that's part of the game? Of course.....Abdelrazik is already working on his gripping tears and torture narrative. I saw his photo as he sat docile in the consulate. He certainly looks like a pious and non-threatening type. Very convincing first impressions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny Posted April 5, 2009 Report Share Posted April 5, 2009 (edited) What is it that I wrote that makes you think I don't understand that concept? Security threat means probability of death. Evaluating such probability is everything but obvious. Edited April 5, 2009 by benny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lictor616 Posted April 5, 2009 Report Share Posted April 5, 2009 http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianp...henOP2Fy-TB3tuAThe RCMP and CSIS have made it clear they have nothing, no file on this guy. What does the government have that their own intelligence services don't? the use of the word "canadian" is erroneous here... it should be placed in quotation marks... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny Posted April 5, 2009 Report Share Posted April 5, 2009 First and foremost states must evaluate threats posed by other (superpower) states. So Canada should take seriously anything it is doing that can upset the US administration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted April 5, 2009 Report Share Posted April 5, 2009 First and foremost states must evaluate threats posed by other (superpower) states. So Canada should take seriously anything it is doing that can upset the US administration. Welll...yeah...that's why they are called "superpower states". But even the supes have to consider the impact of their actions / choices....that's how they got to be big dogs in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 Welll...yeah...that's why they are called "superpower states". But even the supes have to consider the impact of their actions / choices....that's how they got to be big dogs in the first place. The USA is a superpower because it is disposed to live with million of individuals (Mexicans, Chinese, etc.) whom are not welcomed, or even recognized, in their countries of origins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 The USA is a superpower because it is disposed to live with million of individuals (Mexicans, Chinese, etc.) whom are not welcomed, or even recognized, in their countries of origins. Don't forget the Canadians who jumped ship as well...salute! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
85RZ500 Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 Whenever Abdelrazik makes it back to Canada all that will be left is to write Abdelrazik a $10M cheque compliments of the taxpayer and arrange for all the psychiatric help he needs. There's three more Arar clones with their teery eyes and hands out looking for their windfall. He can stand in line behind them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 According to the facts of this case, it seems there is a web of complicity in keeping Abdelrazik from traveling to Canada. This includes the United Nations, US security services and Canadian security services. Even the airlines had a hand in refusing his travel.http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...NStory/National Thus: - It appears Abdelrazik is not guilty of anything. - The government attempted to have Abdelrazik's name removed from the UN no-fly list. The US objected so the UN refused on that ground. - In the event that the UN had agreed to remove his name, the US placed Abdelrazik on their own no-fly list to continue preventing him from travel the US or over US airspace. - The Canadian government is reluctant to facilitate air travel for Abdelrazik for fear of alienating US security personnel. The government drew the airlines into preventing travel back to Canada. - Abdelrazik has been camped out at the Canadian Embassy and he is offered consular services minus granting him a passport. It's incomprehensible why Cannon would place the onus squarely on Abdelrazik to act on his own to get his name of the no-fly lists. What Cannon needs to do is lobby the new US administration to help resolve this matter. Surely Obama would be willing to correct a wrong perpetrated by the Bush administration. And if the Obama administration clears Abdelrazik, the UN will surely follow suit. Whenever Abdelrazik makes it back to Canada all that will be left is to write Abdelrazik a $10M cheque compliments of the taxpayer and arrange for all the psychiatric help he needs. You seem to moving the blame from the Canadian government to the UN and the US, when the UN no fly list does not matter if one if flying back to their country of citizenship. This is just Conservative spin if they gave him a passport and he could fly to Canada and be on the UN no fly list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 Don't forget the Canadians who jumped ship as well...salute! What we should not forget rather is how common it becomes for Africans to glue themselves inside tiny boats in hope to (illegally) reach Europe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visionseeker Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 His lawyer should also call the UN and ask them why he's on their no-fly list. Indeed, just as you should prepare yourself to be stripped of your rights because someone at the UN put you on a list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 It does not matter if you are on the UN no fly list if you flying back to your country of citizenship. His lawyer should call the Canadian government and ask them why they wont give him a passport. That is the only thing between him and home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tango Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 There's three more Arar clones with their teery eyes and hands out looking for their windfall. He can stand in line behind them - The government attempted to have Abdelrazik's name removed from the UN no-fly list. The US objected so the UN refused on that ground. - In the event that the UN had agreed to remove his name, the US placed Abdelrazik on their own no-fly list to continue preventing him from travel the US or over US airspace. I think ... the US can pay the damages this time! The guy's Canadian, has a cot in the Canadian Embassy ... The hell with US airspace ... Put him on a boat! Why should we pay the damages! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 - The government attempted to have Abdelrazik's name removed from the UN no-fly list. The US objected so the UN refused on that ground.- In the event that the UN had agreed to remove his name, the US placed Abdelrazik on their own no-fly list to continue preventing him from travel the US or over US airspace. I think ... the US can pay the damages this time! The guy's Canadian, has a cot in the Canadian Embassy ... The hell with US airspace ... Put him on a boat! Why should we pay the damages! I WILL REPEAT!!!!! He can fly to Canada and still be on the UN no fly list. What he needs is a passport and the government refuses to give it too him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 His lawyer should call the Canadian government and ask them why they wont give him a passport. That is the only thing between him and home. It is in the nature of secret services not to disclose their secrets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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