israeli soldiers admit to war crimes

[Borg]

I think the crux of the issue is Israeli powers-that-be defining everyone in Gaza as "terrorists", thus de-humanizing the population and 'justifying', in their minds and for their soldiers, use of illegal methods of war against civilians.

However I very much doubt that the UN and the world in general sees all Gazans or Palestinians as "terrorists".

Israel has to be accountable for its actions, imo, as we all do.

I do not see this in Israel.

And Hamas and Fatah?

Or are they the good guys?

Borg

[DogOnPorch]

I think the crux of the issue is Israeli powers-that-be defining everyone in Gaza as "terrorists", thus de-humanizing the population and 'justifying', in their minds and for their soldiers, use of illegal methods of war against civilians.

Does Israel, in fact, claim all Palestinian Arabs are terrorists?

However I very much doubt that the UN and the world in general sees all Gazans or Palestinians as "terrorists".

No; but they do have a thing or two to say re: Israel.

Israel has to be accountable for its actions, imo, as we all do.

Aren't they accountable?

[KrustyKidd]

Israel has to be accountable for its actions, imo, as we all do.

You have not stated the accountability which you wish for Hamas actions. Please do so prior to being considered an even remotely anti Israeli critic much less somebody impartial on this issue.

[tango]

You have not stated the accountability which you wish for Hamas actions. Please do so prior to being considered an even remotely anti Israeli critic much less somebody impartial on this issue.

You are right. I didn't.

And I do think Hamas' actions should be investigated too, and I'm sure they will be.

[KrustyKidd]

You are right. I didn't.

And I do think Hamas' actions should be investigated too, and I'm sure they will be.

Anybody with an official policy of eradicating an entire people and using their own people as human shields should be investigated much closer than Israel wouldn't you agree?

[dub]

Anybody with an official policy of eradicating an entire people and using their own people as human shields should be investigated much closer than Israel wouldn't you agree?

correct me if i'm wrong, but hamas, with all its faults, does not have an official policy to eradicate all jews (i'm assuming that is who you were referring to).

there is evidence and report on both hamas and the IDF using palestinian civilians as human shield. both should be held accountable.

as far as who should be investigated closer, neither should get any pass on their activities. both should be investigated fully.

krustykidd, do you agree with the UN investigation headed by Justice Goldstone?

[tango]

Article

Seems the ROE were at the unit level if they could be changed that quickly rather than IDF wide. Possibly you might want to blame the soldiers (or possibly their immediate NCOs) as that seems to be where the problem (if any) lay seeing as how everybody from the Israeli military to the head of that course knew nothing about any such orders.

source?

I don't believe that. A policy to clear houses by killing civilians, including children, must come from high levels.

[M.Dancer]

source?

I don't believe that. A policy to clear houses by killing civilians, including children, must come from high levels.

There was no such policy except in your fevered imagination....high level? Depends, how tall are you?

[Oleg Bach]

source?

I don't believe that. A policy to clear houses by killing civilians, including children, must come from high levels.

Even a novice noticed that during the attack on Gaza - the policy was, kill as many as possible - men woman and children - and that is what they did ----Why else would they black out the media?

[M.Dancer]

correct me if i'm wrong, but hamas, with all its faults, does not have an official policy to eradicate all jews (i'm assuming that is who you were referring to).

You're wrong and not very honest either...

[dub]

You're wrong and not very honest either...

at the risk of you running away again after making a comment; hey dancer, can you give me a link that shows that hamas's official policy is to eradicate the jews, as krustykidd said earlier?

[M.Dancer]

at the risk of you running away again after making a comment; hey dancer, can you give me a link that shows that hamas's official policy is to eradicate the jews, as krustykidd said earlier?

this is what i am refering to in terms of your honesty...you are quite aware pf Hamas' policy towards Israel....whether they would lift a finger to save Candians jews is also questionable

[DogOnPorch]

Even a novice noticed that during the attack on Gaza - the policy was, kill as many as possible - men woman and children - and that is what they did ----Why else would they black out the media?

If the Israelis wanted to kill everyone in Gaza, it would have happened. Stop turning molehills into mountains. This doesn't even rate in the top 100,000 battles of history.

[dub]

this is what i am refering to in terms of your honesty...you are quite aware pf Hamas' policy towards Israel....whether they would lift a finger to save Candians jews is also questionable

hamas is no different than the hardline jews who envision the region to become a 'greater israel'. looks like they're getting their way by expanding the illegal settlements in the palestinian territories and doing everything in their power to not allow a palestinian state.

likud's official stance is still "to never allow a palestinian state".

JERUSALEM, May 12” The Likud Party voted tonight in favor of a resolution never to allow the creation of a Palestinian state,

so tell me how hamas' policies and actions are different than israel's?

[M.Dancer]

so tell me how hamas' policies and actions are different than israel's?

suicide bombers and the willingness to let their people be killed for starters

[KrustyKidd]

source?

I don't believe that.

Why does it not surprise me that you have no knowledge of this subject?

Hamas Charter

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.

West Bank anger over Gaza raids

"We will not rest until we destroy the Zionist entity," senior Hamas figure Fathi Hammad said at the funeral for the 20 people who died in that attack.

Palestinians Admit Using Human Shields

For the Palestinian people, death has become an industry, at which women excel, and so do all the people living on this land. The elderly excel at this, and so do the mujahideen and the children. This is why they have formed human shields of the women, the children, the elderly, and the mujahideen, in order to challenge the Zionist bombing machine. It is as if they were saying to the Zionist enemy: "We desire death like you desire life."

Hammad is a leader of the Izzedeen al-Qassam Brigades, the military wing of Hamas, and in 2006 was elected to the Palestinian Parliament as a Hamas representative. He is also director of Al-Aqsa TV, which aired his comments on February 29.

[dub]

Why does it not surprise me that you have no knowledge of this subject?

Hamas Charter

are your quotes from the actual charter or are they commentaries? i can't quite tell as the site seems a little ambiguous about it. the quotes you have posted don't seem to be in this translation of hamas' charter.

"We will not rest until we destroy the Zionist entity," senior Hamas figure Fathi Hammad said at the funeral for the 20 people who died in that attack.

zionists does not equate to jews. zionism is a movement. there are many jews who are against zionism and the creation of the state of israel and/or its actions against the palestinians.

Palestinians Admit Using Human Shields

just like how the Israeli army has been found to be guilty of using human shields by its own court. the israeli army has even appealed the ban of using human shields and even though the israeli supreme court denied the appeal, the israeli army has been caught over and over again using human shields.

so you see, hamas and the israeli army and those who are pushing for the control of the whole land are not much different when it comes to their main goal. except that hamas is fighting for the occupied and israeli army is fighting for the occupier.

it's interesting that you guys don't like to touch the whole likud vote.

[dub]

suicide bombers and the willingness to let their people be killed for starters

a suicide bomber kills civilians just like a tank shell kills civilians. same thing.

the aushwitz' ghetto uprising against the nazis resulted in many deaths of civilians.

[KrustyKidd]

are your quotes from the actual charter or are they commentaries? i can't quite tell as the site seems a little ambiguous about it. the quotes you have posted don't seem to be in this translation of hamas' charter.

They seemed to have missed that for some reason. You can however find those passages in a gazillion other sites.

zionists does not equate to jews. zionism is a movement. there are many jews who are against zionism and the creation of the state of israel and/or its actions against the palestinians.

I believe that by Zionists they mean Israelis. Unless of course, they mean to eradicate Zionists from Iceland.

just like how the Israeli army has been found to be guilty of using human shields by its own court. the israeli army has even appealed the ban of using human shields and even though the israeli supreme court denied the appeal, the israeli army has been caught over and over again using human shields.

So it is illegal for Israel to do so by their own system. What a difference. In Palestine, it is an SOP to use their own people in such a way while in Israel it is illegal.

so you see, hamas and the israeli army and those who are pushing for the control of the whole land are not much different when it comes to their main goal. except that hamas is fighting for the occupied and israeli army is fighting for the occupier.

You have shown yourself that Israel holds a moral high ground in that they prosecute those who conduct themselves improperly while Hamas continues to brag about it at the leadership level.

it's interesting that you guys don't like to touch the whole likud vote.

Why? You and some others here don't seem to have a grasp on reality hence we have to teach you to walk prior to engaging in more three dimensional topics.

[tango]

Hamas Charter

I found that a bit biased.

But I don't doubt it.

Palestine wants to get rid of Israel. Israel wants to get rid of Palestine.

This is the way it is and has been.

And then there's also the present reality:

Of course, talking to Hamas is unappealing for several obvious reasons. As Cohen notes, the Hamas charter contains a number of truly "vile" elements, including some odious anti-Semitic declarations. For Hamas to invoke a discredited forgery like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion is both offensive and ignorant, and it weakens their claim to be taken seriously as a political movement. And then there's the moral hazard problem: If we start talking to Hamas, do we encourage other extremist groups to think they can get recognition too if they hold out long enough?

So it's not surprising that U.S. policymakers have been reluctant to talk to Hamas, even indirectly. But look at it this way: When you make mistakes, you usually end up in a worse position and you have to do things you would have preferred to avoid. (Case in point: Iraq. We screwed up there, and we are therefore facing circumstances and having to do things we would otherwise have chosen not to do). In other words, actions have consequences.

The same principle applies here. Back in 1993, when the Oslo peace process began, only about 15 percent of the Palestinian population backed Hamas. Then Israel, the United States, and the PLO squandered the historic opportunity that Oslo afforded. Israel continued to expand its settlements, the United States put no pressure on it to stop and mismanaged the negotiations (especially at Camp David in 2000), and the Palestinian Authority remained deeply corrupt and made its own share of blunders, too. George W. Bush made the problem worse on his watch, refusing to engage in the peace process and letting Ariel Sharon and Ehud Olmert do pretty much whatever they wanted.

The result?: Hamas grew more and more popular, and eventually won the Palestinian legislative elections in January 2006. According to Palestinian pollster Khalil Shikaki, the recent assault on Gaza seems to have increased their popularity even more. Bottom line: If we didn't want to have to deal with Hamas, we should have been following a different policy for the past 15 years.

Hence Cohen's clear-eyed conclusion: Hamas is now an enduring element of the political landscape and the only realistic thing to do is recognize that fact and start dealing with them, provided that they are willing to renounce violence. There's no love lost between Fatah and Hamas, for example, but Fatah's declining fortunes have forced them to begin new talks for a unity government. I'm pretty sure that Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas or Prime Minister Salam Fayyad didn't really want to do this, it was simply the best option available to them at this point.

The other reason to talk to Hamas -- even if we limit ourselves to indirect contacts at first -- is to try to change their long-term thinking. Back in the 1980s, contacts between the PLO and pro-peace members of the American Jewish community eventually led Yasser Arafat to accept the UN resolutions 242 and 338 (the key resolutions governing the peace process) in December 1988, thereby taking a key step towards acceptance of Israel's existence. This incident merely illustrates the obvious notion that talking with your adversaries can be even more important than talking with your friends.

West Bank anger over Gaza raids

Palestinians Admit Using Human Shields

I am aware of those things, some are dated. And I would hope there will be independent investigations of the actions of both parties.

But I have seen nothing that makes me want to take one side or another. Seems to me ever since the removal of the Palestinians (1948?), it's been a "he said/he said" kind of interaction.

I just want people to talk about resolutions. Obviously neither Israel nor Palestine nor Hamas is disappearing any time soon.

[DogOnPorch]

I found that a bit biased.

I found Hamas's Charter biased, as well.

[dub]

I found Hamas's Charter biased, as well.

zing?

[dub]

They seemed to have missed that for some reason. You can however find those passages in a gazillion other sites.

nope. i don't see the quotes you've posted in the link you've given. maybe my find option is not working?

I believe that by Zionists they mean Israelis. Unless of course, they mean to eradicate Zionists from Iceland.

zionism is a movement and an ideal. kind of like 'radical islam'. do you want to eradicate radical islam?

So it is illegal for Israel to do so by their own system. What a difference. In Palestine, it is an SOP to use their own people in such a way while in Israel it is illegal.

israel has definitely set a high standard for itself and it wants the world to know that. unfortunately, they break those standards, especially when it comes to the treatment of the palestinians. in this case, they have violated their own court ruling and have taken palestinians as human shields.

read more about it in another thread that we had.

You have shown yourself that Israel holds a moral high ground in that they prosecute those who conduct themselves improperly while Hamas continues to brag about it at the leadership level.

unfortunately, even if there is an investigation, most of those who commit questionable acts, either have their case dropped or receive a slap on the wrist. like in this case:

Abir's case dismissed by Jerusalem Prosecutor

By Donna Baranski-Walker - Executive Director, October 29, 2007 05:51 PM

In August, the Jerusalem prosecutor dismissed Abir’s case without filing charges, supposedly for lack of evidence – despite 14 witnesses and an independent autopsy. On Oct. 1, 2007 Israeli attorney Michael Sfard, esq., and Israeli human rights group, Yesh Din appealed the Israeli prosecutor’s decision to close the investigation file on death of Abir Aramin.

Why? You and some others here don't seem to have a grasp on reality hence we have to teach you to walk prior to engaging in more three dimensional topics.

i'm not sure how that is a respond to likud's vote to never allow a palestinian state which confirms that likud does not want a palestinian state just as much as hamas does not want an israeli state. that's reality.

[KrustyKidd]

nope. i don't see the quotes you've posted in the link you've given. maybe my find option is not working?

You can find it here in a complete translation of the document.

zionism is a movement and an ideal. kind of like 'radical islam'. do you want to eradicate radical islam?

No. Radical Islam is not all bad nor even mostly bad. Qutbism is bad but a Zionist entity is the nation of Israel. In the quote below they specify whom they consider worthy of being an enemy.

In the face of the Jewish occupation of Palestine, it is necessary to raise the banner of jihad. This requires the propagation of Islamic consciousness among the masses, locally [in Palestine], in the Arab world and in the Islamic world. It is necessary to instill the spirit of jihad in the nation, engage the enemies and join the ranks of the jihad fighters.

israel has definitely set a high standard for itself and it wants the world to know that. unfortunately, they break those standards, especially when it comes to the treatment of the palestinians. in this case, they have violated their own court ruling and have taken palestinians as human shields.

Yes. Individual soldiers have violated those standards. However, Palestine has no pretext of even having a standard and as stated by their military leader, it is official policy to use their own people as human shields.

i'm not sure how that is a respond to likud's vote to never allow a palestinian state which confirms that likud does not want a palestinian state just as much as hamas does not want an israeli state. that's reality.

It's pretty much a request that you bone up on the official policies of Hamas before enlarging the scope of the discussion. You were unaware that Hamas officially desires the destruction of Israel and uses their own people officially as human shields unlike Israel who, while individual soldiers may make transgressions, the country as a whole has no such official policy of using Palestinians as shields or the destruction of Palestine. Once you understand that then we can move on and speak of the degrees of who adheres to what.

Edited April 24, 2009 by KrustyKidd

[tango]

You can find it here in a complete translation of the document.

No. Radical Islam is not all bad nor even mostly bad. Qutbism is bad but a Zionist entity is the nation of Israel. In the quote below they specify whom they consider worthy of being an enemy.

Yes. Individual soldiers have violated those standards. However, Palestine has no pretext of even having a standard and as stated by their military leader, it is official policy to use their own people as human shields.

It's pretty much a request that you bone up on the official policies of Hamas before enlarging the scope of the discussion. You were unaware that Hamas officially desires the destruction of Israel and uses their own people officially as human shields unlike Israel who, while individual soldiers may make transgressions, the country as a whole has no such official policy of using Palestinians as shields or the destruction of Palestine. Once you understand that then we can move on and speak of the degrees of who adheres to what.

Has Israel recognized Palestine's right to exist?

It cuts both ways.