CAS is more harmful to children than physical discipline by parents

[bjre]

The Strategy of CAS for Emotional Abusing Children

Once a child has been interviewed at his/her school by CAS workers, the child is now treated differently by school officials.

After the interview the child and his/her family are now labeled by school officials who blindly believe that CAS workers are never wrong.

In too many cases, CAS workers have only one agenda – to get the children to say what the workers want.

Child “protection” workers often to use tricks and other forms of deception to get children to say things against their parents, even if it is not the truth!

Tragically, too many children are interviewed by Children’s Aid Society workers at schools without the knowledge or consent of parents.

Accurate records of these “secret” meetings are never kept by child “protection” workers with children also being given misleading information and asked inappropriate and leading questions.

Many children and parents claim that they do not trust Children’s Aid Society workers and that Children’s Aid Society workers lie in court about what the children have said.

That’s why Children’s Aid Society workers refuse to audio record their meetings with children or their parents.

Workers do not want any accurate record of their meetings to exist which may conflict with the lies which many Children’s Aid Society workers knowingly submit in their sworn affidavits to the courts.

In fact, children and parents are often threatened by CAS workers and CAS lawyers and told that they will be punished if they attempt to accurate record meetings using video or audio recording devices!

CAS workers and their lawyers are afraid of the truth being accurately recorded.

This child had to make up lies to tell her friends in order to minimize the damage that CAS workers has caused by coming to this child’s school.

While parents want their children to learn to tell the truth, children are put into a position where they have to lie to their friends to avoid humiliation cause by CAS workers.

If children have to interview by Children’s Aid Society workers, the majority of children involved would prefer that interviews be conducted at places other than their school in order to avoid embarrassment and humiliation.

Unfortunately, child “protection” workers interview children at their school deliberately as part of their strategy to label and to publicly humiliate the family.

This strategy is part of the culture of abuse of power and control that exists amongst many of the Children’s Aid Society workers, most of who lack proper qualifications.

Schools should not allow Children’s Aid Society workers to enter school property to interview children without a court order authorizing workers to do this.

Children should feel that schools are safe place for them to go to learn and where they will be free of outside and unwanted influences, including poorly conducted interrogations by CAS workers.

Every time school officials permit a child to be interviewed at their school, they are adversely affecting the psychological well being of the child and causing the child to mistrust their teachers and principals.

Some kids develop a hatred of their teachers for allowing CAS workers to come to the school to interview them.

Schools were built for purpose of educating our children, not for the purpose of being used as convenient locations for interrogations by over-zealous and unaccountable workers form privately owned and operated Children’s Aid Societies.

“We must vigilantly stand on guard within our own borders for human rights and fundamental freedoms which are our proud heritage……we cannot take for granted the continuance and maintenance of those rights and freedoms” ---- former Prime Minister of Canada, John Diefenbaker

Edited April 1, 2010 by bjre

[Moonlight Graham]

This whole issue of CAS and how children can be abused by their parents in different ways is EXTREMELY complex.

First off, CAS is not evil. It may sometimes do some bad things, and children taken by parents and put in group homes or foster homes have certainly had negative experiences and outcomes and is generally not ideal. However, after working at a community center that had to deal with CAS in some cases, and dealt with clients who has been through the system and dealt with CAS themselves, i can say that CAS generally does tries to do what is right for the children and protect them.

The OP speaks about parents who physically discipline their children, but there are many different reasons why CAS will take a child from the parents. Sexual abuse, violent physical abuse, emotional/psychological abuse stemming from many different things, and simply horrific parenting that seriously affects the development and well-being of the child (ie: not feeding them, tying them up, and making them do other horrible things most people honestly couldn't even imagine). In short, some kids live in absolute hell and unfortunately must be separated from their abusive/incompetent parents.

Statistics about kids who are in group/foster homes are difficult to analyze. You can't just say something like "20% of kids in group care have tried to commit suicide" or "X number of kids in foster care don't graduate from high school" and blame it on CAS or the group/foster systems. These kids have been scarred by the actions of their parents. A child who is sexually abused by their parents is going to have a negative affect on them throughout their time growing up, and this will affect certainly have an affect on the likelihood they will finish high school or try to commit suicide whether they stay with their abusive parents are grow up in foster care.

As i stated at the beginning, this is an incredibly complex issue. I don't know enough about CAS or child psychology to say much more on the subject, but it is one that is very important and i'm glad it's being discussed here.

[Bonam]

I think my stance on this issue is that children should only be taken away from their parents in the MOST EXTREME cases. That is, when there is real and credible danger to the LIFE of the child in question. Children taken away from their parents are doomed to a very different sort of life, and in general taking children away from parents is an exertion of the state's power in the most personal and disruptive way possible. Exercising such power in anything but the most exceptional circumstances is simply wrong.

[bjre]

I'm going to link some studies now.

The case against corporal punishment of children: Converging evidence from social science research and international human rights law and implications for U.S. public policy.

Corporal punishment of children and adult depresion and suicidal ideation

Beating the devil out of them (book)

corperal punishment in adolesence and physical assaults on spouses in later life whataccounts for the link

Spanking by parents amd subsequent antisocial behavior of children

corporal punishment of adolescents and academic attainment

Most of your linked studies are from Murray A. Straus.

Take a look at how he did his studies:

…

However, after examining Straus’ text as an example of sociology and as an example of social problems discourse, I question both its sociological contributions and the political desirability of implementing its calls for social action, for there calls are based upon an abstract, theoretical, and context-free model of social life.

…

Although proper scientific methodology is assumed to support theoretical statements in this type of sociology, Straus’ text raises many methodological questions. For example, there is a long series of two-variable analyses when more sophisticated methodology allows empirical examination of critical interaction effects; few figures show the number of cases upon which analyses are based; no theoretical logic is shown for grouping incidents of violence into categories such as “3-5” or “6-10” in some figures while using different groupings in other figures; and data from women and men sometimes are separated and sometimes are not.

…

http://www.jstor.org/pss/800526

[Guest TrueMetis]

Most of your linked studies are from Murray A. Straus.

Take a look at how he did his studies:

You left out a significant part.

I agree that the cultural tolerance for "normal" violence sets the stage for "abusive" violence...

Even if the study were methodologically rigorous. at a more fundemental level I question the need for empirical proof of the "Cultural Spillover" Theory. This theory predicts that "approval" of violence is associated with the "use" of violenceand that violence spills from "legitimate" and "illegitimate' uses, from one generation to the next, and from one institution to others. But sociologist know that humans learn from their experiances, that cultural and institutional patterns reflect and perpetuate each other, and that "attitudes" are vaguely and generall associated with "behaviors."

It continues but the page is cut off.

[ron Young]

First hand experience with CAS......My daughter was 15 when she started to skip school, hang out with questionable friends, shop lift, sneak out, smoke in the house, ect, ect, ect....My ex wife and I raised her and our son without hitting or spanking...Time out was our punishment right from the start with fairly good results. We felt very strongly about it and I also have a son with my current wife and we have practiced the same technique with the same results.

Back to the 15 yr old she flipped back and forth a few times between her Mother and My house not doing well in either environment. Well she simply got angry one day and left my home and went first to her friends house and called CAS...They investigated by showing up at my youngest sons school(he was in SK at the time) to interview him. The worker called me at work from his cell phone to inform me of this. Of course I told him he had no permission to interview my son without my his Mother/Father/Grandmother/Grandfather present. This got his back up and he was very belligerent and flippant trying to tell me that he does in fact have the right. One call to the secretary of his school from me and there was no way she was letting anybody speak to my son without a court order....So on and on we ended up setting up his mandatory visit at home with his Mother and I present....It did not go well My little guy was a shy boy at this age and ended up very upset in sobbing tears because he did not want to talk to this man. At any rate I cut it short and demanded the worker leave...which he very reluctantly did. We requested a new worker and received one but no further interview was required. Which we already knew because we raise the kids in a loving positive way. The process this time took about a week and my daughter was back home. All was well for a few weeks then the bad behavior started again...sneaking out at 2am and the likes...Well it didn't take long she was back on the phone again to CAS this time with more serious allegations of physical abuse. This time although they didn't interview either of my other 2 children they put her directly into foster care. Signing off on it was very difficult for me but I felt it was the only option...She told me she would just run away again and had plenty of places she could live....... Oh it gets better she had to wait 2 weeks for a home to be available so she stayed where? you guessed it at her boyfriends house with his parents and CAS's permission///She is still 15 yrs old at this point. So the first Foster home she went too lasted 2 weeks the next 3 weeks....She ended up sleeping on a couch at a friend of the boyfriends parents who happens to live in the same apartment building for about 2 months eventually just moving back in with the boyfriend and his parents. All with CAS approval.

B/F's parents buy the reservation cigarettes for them and allow them to not attend school. B/F washes dishes at a local restaurant and my daughter does nothing.....Shes 17 now and not in school not working claiming she is depressed because of the way she was treated by her Mother, myself and all of her teachers.

I'm just waiting for the B/F's parents to take me to court for child support, Retroactive no doubt LOL.

CAS is an industry so is foster parenting....not to say they are all bad but my ex wife was disgusted when she visited her at the first foster home.

Through the whole process our worker changed 4 times one we didn't even speak to but we had a letter telling us that she was our new worker then we got a letter telling us we have another new worker LOL

The whole process is ridiculous and should be avoided at all costs. Oh and I tried to file a complaint about the first male worker and his visit to my young sons school but was stonewalled until I finally gave up.

[bjre]

Dozens of Ontario families are still being asked to give up custody of their special needs children in order to get the care they need, Ontario's ombudsman said Tuesday.

Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2010/06/15/ontario-ombudsman.html#ixzz0r4IF1NRP

http://cp24.com/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20100615/100615_ombudsman/20100615/?hub=CP24Home

CAS cares only money. Their behaviour is just like cruel wild animals when take others kids.

Anyone who ask for CAS for "help" is really like Faust, it is a sadness.

Edited June 17, 2010 by bjre

[bjre]

[bjre]

Why a family court judge beat his own daughter?

Obviously because he himself BELIEVES it is necessary sometimes

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wires/20111103/us-videotaped-beating-texas/

McALLEN, Texas — A Texas judge who presides over child abuse cases said Thursday that his daughter posted a YouTube video of him beating her several years ago because he told her he was reducing her financial support and taking away her Mercedes.

Aransas County Court-at-Law Judge William Adams, 51, issued a statement through his lawyer in which he questioned his 23-year-old daughter Hillary's motives for posting the secretly made 2004 video online last week. The three-page statement did not include an apology for the beating, in which the judge lashed his daughter with a belt 17 times in the legs while she begged him to stop.

Adams, Aransas County's top judge, was elected in 2001 and has dealt with at least 349 family law cases in the past year alone, nearly 50 of which involved state caseworkers seeking determine whether parents were fit to raise their children.

[dre]

Why a family court judge beat his own daughter?

Obviously because he himself BELIEVES it is necessary sometimes

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wires/20111103/us-videotaped-beating-texas/

McALLEN, Texas — A Texas judge who presides over child abuse cases said Thursday that his daughter posted a YouTube video of him beating her several years ago because he told her he was reducing her financial support and taking away her Mercedes.

Aransas County Court-at-Law Judge William Adams, 51, issued a statement through his lawyer in which he questioned his 23-year-old daughter Hillary's motives for posting the secretly made 2004 video online last week. The three-page statement did not include an apology for the beating, in which the judge lashed his daughter with a belt 17 times in the legs while she begged him to stop.

Adams, Aransas County's top judge, was elected in 2001 and has dealt with at least 349 family law cases in the past year alone, nearly 50 of which involved state caseworkers seeking determine whether parents were fit to raise their children.

What a piece of shit. Two bags of fetid human feces attacking a mentally disabled child with a belt for download music.

Way to illustrate why we have unfortunately had to make laws around physical discipline by parent.

I hope that sack of shit dies of cancer.

[jacee]

I really don't want to get into this right now because as you can see my life's as you can see my life's been made very difficult over this child," been made very difficult over this child," he said. "In my mind I have not done anything wrong other than discipline my child when she was caught stealing. I did lose my temper, I've apologized.

Too bad the statute of limitations has run out.

I certainly hope he'll never judge child abuse cases again.

[guyser]

Too bad the statute of limitations has run out.

I certainly hope he'll never judge child abuse cases again.

Any cases involving children have been mopved off his docket u til further notice.

He is dead man politically and professionally. It will just take some time. Of course it is....Texas so....

[Guest Manny]

Wow, what a bastard. Someone should take a belt to him.

But in regards to childrens aid, that's why this girl needed help. Childrens aid is usually trying to help children and protect them. But there have been times when their decisions are not always correct. For many people, it's a sad world.

Edited November 4, 2011 by Manny

[bjre]

Wow, what a bastard. Someone should take a belt to him.

Good idea, that could be better than put him into endless law troubles.

And it seems that you support physical discipline too. I think you yourself may do that when you in anger from you first intention exposed in your word.

But it seems that when you can control youself, you prefer your children become criminals than physical discipline them?

But in regards to childrens aid, that's why this girl needed help. Childrens aid is usually trying to help children and protect them. But there have been times when their decisions are not always correct. For many people, it's a sad world.

Wrong, the lower level workers of CAS are just do what they are told to do, just like cops, or any other job. the manager of those workers are just like any company that care only about money, because each child "in care" can bring money to them, (see previous posts for detail.) They don't care of "help" or "protect" child, there are many abuses under CAS care, just like animal protect organizations take dog and abuse them under their own place. They care only money. Children in CAS care are more likely to end up in correction system than in high school. What is why "Children's aid" don't care children. Money is the only thing they care.

Edited November 7, 2011 by bjre

[cybercoma]

From the statistics, we can see it is very clear CAS does not make child grow well.

Why children are taken into care by CAS, it is very often because parents want to physical discipline kids. Parents were educating kids. Let’s suppose the physical discipline is not good, what can be the solution, ask help from CAS? If kids get a small wound from discipline, they will get a lifetime great hurt from CAS.

It's not very clear that CAS "does not make child grow well." What a pile of crap. The reason children are brought into CAS in the first place is that the children are in an environment where they're less likely to succeed by those metrics in the first place. CAS does not take children from their families all willy-nilly and the policy of the CAS is to keep the child with its own parents at all costs, barring that they try to keep the child within the same family even first. Sometimes decisions are even made by family court to remove the child from the home and CAS is not allowed to go against a judge's ruling, even if CAS argued in court that the child should not be taken from his/her parents.

What the statistics show are children from abusive situations not succeeding at the same level as those who have not had to have intervention from CAS. What they do not show is that CAS is failing. They actually support CAS. To show that CAS is failling, you need to have a test group of kids that are left in abusive situations and see how they fair. You can't do it because ethically you would be required by law as a researcher to have the child removed from an abusive situation.

[cybercoma]

Statistics about kids who are in group/foster homes are difficult to analyze. You can't just say something like "20% of kids in group care have tried to commit suicide" or "X number of kids in foster care don't graduate from high school" and blame it on CAS or the group/foster systems. These kids have been scarred by the actions of their parents. A child who is sexually abused by their parents is going to have a negative affect on them throughout their time growing up, and this will affect certainly have an affect on the likelihood they will finish high school or try to commit suicide whether they stay with their abusive parents are grow up in foster care.

This.

[cybercoma]

Children taken away from their parents are doomed to a very different sort of life, and in general taking children away from parents is an exertion of the state's power in the most personal and disruptive way possible. Exercising such power in anything but the most exceptional circumstances is simply wrong.

Are they doomed because they're taken away or are they taken away because they are doomed. Since CAS is criticized as being slow to react and its function is to intervene when parents are not able to do their job properly, it's more than likely the latter.

[cybercoma]

CAS cares only money.

You're reifying CAS. CAS doesn't care about anything. Go tell a social worker that they don't care about children they only care about money and see the reaction you get.

[cybercoma]

I can't believe anyone would support that judge for violently abusing his child and say, "see! Even a family court judge thinks 'physical discipline' is necessary." That's horrible.

[guyser]

Wrong, the lower level workers of CAS are just do what they are told to do, just like cops, or any other job. the manager of those workers are just like any company that care only about money, because each child "in care" can bring money to them,

Your myopic viewpoint of CAS is tiresome and not very accurate in the gran total of things.

Does CAS have issues? Yes

Do they do some great work? Yes, and I am seeing it firsthand in my office. There is an issue betw a woman and her husband and they have been instrumental in keeping the family on a level keel and not disintegrating into oblivion.

[wyly]

where physical discipline has been banned(sweden) it's created a cultural shift, hitting a small child is considered as offensive now as striking a women...cases of child abuse have dropped, cases of child homicides have dropped, caes of children being put in protective care have dropped, cases of children recieving aid from social services have increased...

physical discipline does not work, it just makes for more aggressive adults who follow the same system with their kids, just as sons of wife beaters learn from their fathers...it's shitty parenting there is always a better way to handle children then hitting them...

[bjre]

You have freedom? You have human rights?

Look at this example:

http://www.examiner.com/headlines-in-new-york/father-arrested-strip-searched-after-4-year-old-draws-man-with-gun

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/02/25/arrested-dad-wants-answers-after-daughter-draws-gun-pic

A picture, it is said, is worth a thousand words. But according to a teacher at Forest Hills Public School, in Kitchener, Ontario, a sketch by four-year-old Nevaeh Sansone communicated only one word: “Draw!”

Which is precisely what police did—on the girl's father when he came to pick her up from kindergarten on Wednesday. The Toronto Sun reports that authorities arrested 26-year-old Jessie Sansone on charges of possession of a firearm. The father of four was reportedly handcuffed and eased him into the back of a waiting squad car. A strip search was in his immediate future.

So what did Sansone do to deserve an all-expenses-paid ride to central booking? The late astronomer Carl Sagan might philosophize that his crime was contributing his seed to the formation of a daughter who would someday draw a picture of a man pointing a gun. When the child’s teacher asked her to explain the sketch, she said it was a picture of her father “getting the bad guys and monsters.” That was enough to prompt school administrators to notify Family and Children's Services, who in turn phoned the police.

Continue reading on Examiner.com Father arrested, strip-searched after 4-year-old draws ‘man with gun’ - New York Headlines | Examiner.com http://www.examiner.com/headlines-in-new-york/father-arrested-strip-searched-after-4-year-old-draws-man-with-gun#ixzz1nmpKlsbZ

[guyser]

You have freedom? You have human rights?

Look at this example:

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile.

Congrats, you found one.

China still sucks far worse than anything we have here.

[bjre]

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile.

Congrats, you found one.

China still sucks far worse than anything we have here.

Like the one western colonists killed 100 million aboriginals?

[cybercoma]

Those horrible people trying to protect children. What dirtbags.