Is Canada Falling Short on Trade With China?

[Progressive Tory]

Later that day, in reality land....

I won't dispute that China's Human Rights are deplorable.

The question is trade and economic gain for Canada, now that countries like the U.S. and Austrlia have said 'show me the money.' Maybe if encouraged to reap rewards from the West, China will start to clean up their act.

However, Stephen Harper and the Conservatives have always postured with China over their human rights, refusing to let the 'almighty dollar' dictate who they do business with. Of course, now that we no longer have a conservative party in Canada, and Harper's new agenda is 'is all about me stupid', that almighty dollar is looking pretty good.

He's wooing China like a dog in heat and human rights' violations be damned. Not to worry though. I'm sure he still has a few principles left, right? Hmmm....right?

[Progressive Tory]

Do the all civilians dead has human rights?

I watched 'Taxi to the Dark Side' yesterday, and the U.S. absolutely cannot take the moral highground when it comes to human rights. Neither can Canada when Harper ignored what was happening in the torture chambers and allowed prisoners to be handed over; then tried to black out the reports he claimed not to know anything about.

But again...trade with China. Is Harper right now? Money over humanity? His 'almighty dollar' over everything he pretended to stand for?

[Progressive Tory]

Thank you for the rank list, I just found Iceland's human rights is so good that they are nearly bankrupt.

Thank you bjre. That was so funny. I think they're also melting and their banks have been turned into petting zoos.

Edited February 25, 2009 by Progressive Tory

[Progressive Tory]

The human rights are also used to protect foreign criminals. Like Lai ChangXin and others.

It seems that the human right issues are just spend tax payer’s money and for politicians to get some more votes.

I do respect our human rights but sometimes they override common sense. It's a tricky balance. I'd still rather live here than anywhere else.

[Wild Bill]

...Of course, now that we no longer have a conservative party in Canada...

You've made this claim before, PT. Considering that by the dictionary and the words and deeds of the old Progressive Conservatives we never had a conservative party BEFORE this one, just what is YOUR definition of a conservative party?

As I say, you seem to have a completely different dictionary than one that I've ever seen. So I'm asking for YOUR definition, since it seems to be unique!

[Progressive Tory]

As I say, you seem to have a completely different dictionary than one that I've ever seen. So I'm asking for YOUR definition, since it seems to be unique!

The actual definition is broad, but the Canadian Conservative platform is not. I was always for smaller gov't and fiscal responsibility. Never really cared much about lower taxes, though I probably should have. I just believed that they were necessary to uphold our lifestyle. The progressive in me believed that social programs were important to maintain civil order.

However THIS Conservative Party, the one Stephen Harper presented to his base, is gone; and the PCs were already swallowed up and spit out; leaving us with Mike Harris leftovers and a handful of hangers on. I'm certianly not the only one who's figured this out:

The end of Canadian conservatism. How Harper sold out to save himself

"Say what you like about the Tories: they don’t do things by halves. When they spend, they spend. When they go into debt, they do it $100 billion at a time. And when they decide to finish off what remains of conservatism in Canada—as a movement, as a philosophy—they go out with a bang.... We are on course toward a massive and permanent increase in the size and scope of government: record spending, sky-high borrowing, and—ultimately, inevitably—higher taxes. And all this before the first of the baby boomers have had a chance to retire." That is the anti-Conservative.

[Jean_Poutine]

Is Canada Falling Short on Trade With China?

Nope, China is falling short on its trade. In 2007, the US imported $321.5 billion worth of Chinese exports while only $65.2 billion worth of US exports went to China. With all the other economic problems, do you want that kind of trade deficit, too? Canada's population is tiny compared to China, yet Canada took in $248.9 billion worth of US exports while the US took in $313.1 billion worth of Canadian exports in the same year. Generally, Canada/US trade is pretty much balanced, but Canada has a surplus when the price of oil is up.

http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/statis...op/top0712.html

I'm sure China would be interested in exporting more goods to Canada and importing Canadian resources, but that's probably the extent of it. And that leads to another question, do you want Canadian exports to be mainly resources?

Personally I'd rather see Canadian energy resources used to drive the North American economy until cleaner sources of energy can be developed on a scale that makes them practical to use. Meanwhile, without being heavily in debt to China or reliant with regards to trade, Canada can speak freely on human rights issues.

[Jean_Poutine]

The actual definition is broad, but the Canadian Conservative platform is not. I was always for smaller gov't and fiscal responsibility. Never really cared much about lower taxes, though I probably should have. I just believed that they were necessary to uphold our lifestyle. The progressive in me believed that social programs were important to maintain civil order.

However THIS Conservative Party, the one Stephen Harper presented to his base, is gone; and the PCs were already swallowed up and spit out; leaving us with Mike Harris leftovers and a handful of hangers on. I'm certianly not the only one who's figured this out:

The end of Canadian conservatism. How Harper sold out to save himself

"Say what you like about the Tories: they don’t do things by halves. When they spend, they spend. When they go into debt, they do it $100 billion at a time. And when they decide to finish off what remains of conservatism in Canada—as a movement, as a philosophy—they go out with a bang.... We are on course toward a massive and permanent increase in the size and scope of government: record spending, sky-high borrowing, and—ultimately, inevitably—higher taxes. And all this before the first of the baby boomers have had a chance to retire." That is the anti-Conservative.

Another post blaming the Canadian government for global economic circumstance.... Perhaps, you think it's better to do nothing, and, for example, lose Canada's share of the auto manufacturing market -- and about 10% of GDP in the process. The problem did not start in Canada; therefore, the Canadian government -- be it Conservative or Liberal -- is not responsible for it, but it is responsible for getting Canada through the difficult time. And no, the problem isn't so-called reckless spending before the economic downturn. I don't call paying nearly $40 billion on debt reckless spending.

[Progressive Tory]

Another post blaming the Canadian government for global economic circumstance.... Perhaps, you think it's better to do nothing, and, for example, lose Canada's share of the auto manufacturing market -- and about 10% of GDP in the process. The problem did not start in Canada; therefore, the Canadian government -- be it Conservative or Liberal -- is not responsible for it, but it is responsible for getting Canada through the difficult time. And no, the problem isn't so-called reckless spending before the economic downturn. I don't call paying nearly $40 billion on debt reckless spending.

Any criticism of our current gov't means that automatically the Liberals are to blame. We are talking about conservatism in Canada. Harper's government has spent more money than any before it, and did not start debt repayment. That has been pretty steady for a decade or so.

However, every single priciple that this Conservative gov't has assured us they have is gone. Massive overpaid cabinet, appointed senators, huge debt, massive deficit, no social conservative agenda ...the list goes on.

They did not create the global economic crisis but did spend through our reserve during good times, so that we had nothing in the bank once the you know what hit the fan. We also listened to Harper the economist, during the election campaign, tell us that we would not feel the affects of the economic crisis, except maybe a little bump....he had a steady hand .... he would never allow a deficit ... he would never be forced into a deficit.

If they can't manage money during good times, how can we trust them during bad?

Canada no longer has a Conservative party and Harper sold out every single conservative principle to keep his job. He's now a Liberal/NDP/Gawd Knows What, 'Please Don't Fire Me, I'll Do Anything' leader of the 'Please Don't Fire Us, We'll Do Anything' Party. That's all they stand for now.

[Progressive Tory]

Personally I'd rather see Canadian energy resources used to drive the North American economy until cleaner sources of energy can be developed on a scale that makes them practical to use. Meanwhile, without being heavily in debt to China or reliant with regards to trade, Canada can speak freely on human rights issues.

I know we import from China on a large scale. However, the U.S., Australia and others are now cashing in, or at least hoping to cash in on exporting to China's large customer base.

It's almost a given that Obama will start to refuse Alberta's dirty oil. It's making headlines everywhere, and the National Geographic just did a 20 page spread; so we can't count on North America to get us out of this.

The fact that the Fraser Institute just published a 'we love China and have we got a deal for them' piece, is indication that they are softening the blow, now that Harper has changed his mind about the 'almighty dollar'.

"The Conservative government is bolstering Canada's trade ties with China as it tries to beat back the protectionist threat that could slow the flow of goods with the U.S." Human rights are no longer a concern.

"But as Harper worked to raise Canada's profile in the U.S., key Conservative ministers unveiled plans to open six new trade offices in China "very shortly."

I agree with the movement and think we should have done it long ago. However, it's still one more Harper flip flop.

[Smallc]

It's almost a given that Obama will start to refuse Alberta's dirty oil.

Yeah....right.

[Wild Bill]

I know we import from China on a large scale. However, the U.S., Australia and others are now cashing in, or at least hoping to cash in on exporting to China's large customer base.

Well, just because a lot of people are chasing China doesn't automatically make it a good idea. I'm becoming rather curious if ANY country has a positive balance of trade with China!

I'm starting to suspect that the Chinese have been very clever at discouraging access to their domestic market while making all the polite noises to ensure unfettered access to all the Wal-Marts of the rest of the world. I would not be at all surprised if we find that we are all like the proverbial donkey who is being led by a carrot on a string.

All through your posts PT I get the impression that you are taking access to China's consumers for our producers as a given. To me that seems an unproven assumption.

China is a country run by economic warlords. They've shipped us poisonous food and goods produced without even lip service to anti-pollution measures. They routinely ignore any patents or copyright laws and make BILLIONS in ripoff movies, music and software!

Unless the political situation in China changes I suggest we should follow an old trick of business that has done well for me. When I get a "bad" customer who is either too rude and demanding or just not likely to pay his bill I tell him that I have such a long backlog that perhaps he should try somewhere else. Then I give him a competitor's card!

Let such a customer tie up my competitor and make HIM lose money!

[Progressive Tory]

All through your posts PT I get the impression that you are taking access to China's consumers for our producers as a given. To me that seems an unproven assumption.

China is a country run by economic warlords. They've shipped us poisonous food and goods produced without even lip service to anti-pollution measures.

I am only taking it as a given becaue of Mr. Harper's recent announcements and that fact that we are building six 'trading posts' there. He has changed his position with China. That much is a given.

And so has the U.S. That is also a given.

And Australia. Another given.

As to poisonous foods, I didn't realize that Maple Leaf was in China.

It no longer matters what we think and obviously doesn't matter much about their human rights offenses. They're being courted.

Edited February 26, 2009 by Progressive Tory

[bush_cheney2004]

....It no longer matters what we think and obviously doesn't matter much about their human rights offenses. They're being courted.

It never did matter...that was just pap for the masses going back at least to Trudeau.

[madmax]

As to poisonous foods, I didn't realize that Maple Leaf was in China.

Maple Leafs problems are not from INTENTIONAL SPIKING OF FOOD for higher protein. And again, Maple Leaf food inspection is higher for EXPORT then Domestic purchase. I have checked a few times, and you can check, but I haven't found links to the recalls of Maple Leaf Meats in the US. These product lines appear to be separate from the lines for export. Who's minding the mint is our own problem and we can do something about it.

Not so certain about those chocolate Dollar candies.

[Argus]

I won't dispute that China's Human Rights are deplorable

You just don't much care about them. Maybe if they started speaking Hebrew it would concern you more.

The question is trade and economic gain for Canada, now that countries like the U.S. and Austrlia have said 'show me the money.' Maybe if encouraged to reap rewards from the West, China will start to clean up their act.

The last decade would seem to indicate otherwise.

However, Stephen Harper and the Conservatives have always postured with China over their human rights, refusing to let the 'almighty dollar' dictate who they do business with. Of course, now that we no longer have a conservative party in Canada, and Harper's new agenda is 'is all about me stupid', that almighty dollar is looking pretty good.

You're right. Now that the Conservative party has taken to acting like the Liberal Party - which you support...

[Argus]

I watched 'Taxi to the Dark Side' yesterday, and the U.S. absolutely cannot take the moral highground when it comes to human rights. Neither can Canada when Harper ignored what was happening in the torture chambers and allowed prisoners to be handed over; then tried to black out the reports he claimed not to know anything about.

Cannot take the moral high road with whom? With China? Yes, they and we certainly can. Anyone who thinks otherwise is utterly ignorant of the reality of the brutality and abuses which take place in China on a daily basis.

[Argus]

The actual definition is broad, but the Canadian Conservative platform is not. I was always for smaller gov't and fiscal responsibility.

Just not any more, right?

However THIS Conservative Party, the one Stephen Harper presented to his base, is gone; and the PCs were already swallowed up and spit out; leaving us with Mike Harris leftovers and a handful of hangers on. I'm certianly not the only one who's figured this out:

Right, their governing style is so reminicent of Mike Harris. The angry confrontations with unions, the slashing of the public sector, the massice cuts to spending... oh wait, there wasn't any of that. Maybe it was their complete lack of interest in any of the ©onservative hot button issues like immigration, bilingualism, abortion and capital punishment which taught you how far right wing these Harperites were?

I just can't figure out how anyone can possibly think the ©onservatives have ousted the "progressives" when it's so clearly the opposite. There is virtually nothing conservative about Harper's government aside from a love of making mouth noises about high crime. Maybe the absence of massive nepotism, corruption and patronage has convinced you that they're so very different from your beloved Liberals they MUST be far right wing or ... or something!

"Say what you like about the Tories: they don’t do things by halves. When they spend, they spend. When they go into debt, they do it $100 billion at a time. And when they decide to finish off what remains of conservatism in Canada—as a movement, as a philosophy—they go out with a bang.... We are on course toward a massive and permanent increase in the size and scope of government: record spending, sky-high borrowing, and—ultimately, inevitably—higher taxes. And all this before the first of the baby boomers have had a chance to retire." That is the anti-Conservative.

And a couple of months ago you and the other left wingers were almost hysterically giddy with your determination to bring the tories down because they WOULDN'T throw tens of billions into "incentives".

Make up your mind.

[Argus]

However, every single priciple that this Conservative gov't has assured us they have is gone.

Gee, I guess that makes them just like your party.

They did not create the global economic crisis but did spend through our reserve during good times, so that we had nothing in the bank once the you know what hit the fan.

I think you've already gone to some lengths to demonstrate how little you know about or understand economics or budgeting. But to remind you, carrying a huge budget surplus every year is not a sign of good fiscal management. It's a sign of overtaxation. Reducing taxes so that you are only taking as much as you need - plus a reasonable cushion, is a "good" thing.

And it's funny, but all you lefties who whine about what they spent never seem to focus on the major ticket item - all those extra transfer payments to the provinces - principally Quebec.

[Argus]

I know we import from China on a large scale. However, the U.S., Australia and others are now cashing in, or at least hoping to cash in on exporting to China's large customer base.

A) They will not be allowed to export much beyond resources into China.

China and the rest of Asia are likely to be harder hit than the US by the recession.

It's almost a given that Obama will start to refuse Alberta's dirty oil.

Will that be before or after he starts funding giant coal-fired generating plants?

The fact that the Fraser Institute just published a 'we love China and have we got a deal for them' piece, is indication that they are softening the blow,

Dealing with China can be highly profitable - for big business. But it doesn't do much for Canada.

[Progressive Tory]

It never did matter...that was just pap for the masses going back at least to Trudeau.

What are talking about? Trudeau at least took the initiative and extended a hand. Paul Martin always supported trade with China. There wasn't much Trudeau could do to about reducing nucleur power without the U.S. and Soviet Union on board, but at least he did something.

I voted for Trudeau the first year I could vote because my parents were lifelong Liberal supporters. By the next election, it was mostly PC. However, I do recognize his accomplishments. I remember thinking this was a good thing at the time, and still think so.

The issue is ideology and posturing. Harper was trying to impress the more conservative members of his base by announcing that he would not let the almighty dollar dictate his relationship with China. But guess what? The almighty dollar won and once again his base is left just shaking their heads.

[Progressive Tory]

Not so certain about those chocolate Dollar candies.

None of that matters now. It might to you, but not to the Conservative gov't. They no longer care.

[Progressive Tory]

A) They will not be allowed to export much beyond resources into China.

China and the rest of Asia are likely to be harder hit than the US by the recession.

It's not as simple as that. There was an interesting piece in Newsweek soon after the world was rocked by the news of the economic crisis.

"Everyone knows that China is a major power and our representation there is important. But right now, we need Beijing like never before. China is the key to America getting through the worsening economic crisis.... Economists of both the left and right agree that a massive fiscal stimulus is needed and that for now, we shouldn't be worrying about deficits. But in order to run up these deficits—which could total somewhere between $1 trillion and $1.5 trillion, or between 7 and 11 percent of GDP—someone has to buy American debt. And the only country that has the cash to do so is China.

In September, Beijing became America's largest foreign creditor... it is virtually certain that, holding 10 percent of all U.S. public debt, the government of the People's Republic of China has become Washington's largest creditor, foreign or domestic. It is America's banker.

...But will the Chinese continue to play this role? They certainly have the means to do so. China's foreign-exchange reserves stand at about $2 trillion (compared with America's at a relatively puny $73 billion).

China is definitely feeling the pinch, and have put their own economic measures in place, but the fact that American recovery is so dependant on China, puts them in a much better position. If China fails, the U.S. fails, and we fail. It's that simple. Many economists believe that they will recover before anyone else, simply because they have to.

[bush_cheney2004]

What are talking about?....

I'm talking about this kind of Trudeaumania sentiment, especially when it came to "human rights"....what a sham:

“Trudeau never met a communist he didn’t like”, according to author Jamie Glazov. I couldn’t stand his cozying up to mass-murderer, human-rights violating, anti-democracy, totalitarian dictator Fidel Castro. As well, Trudeau co-wrote a book entitled “Two innocents in Red China” in which he logs his travels in China, chronicling his feasts while the biggest holocaust in history occured around him: the Great Leap Forward in which up to 80 million Chinese peasants died of starvation.

[waldo]

I'm talking about this kind of Trudeaumania sentiment, .....

good on ya for finding your kindred spirit - Jamie Glazov, who makes a case for the Canadian psyche needing "anti-Americanism" to identify itself. Jamie Glazov who attributed Trudeau's foreign relationships to Trudeau's purposeful attempt/need to "stand-up" to Americans... Jamie Glazov, who severely criticized Chretien for his decision to keep Canada out of Iraq..... and ultimately attributed Chretien's "anti-American" position to being a protege of Trudeau. This Jamie Glazov quote is particularly of note:

But Chrétien’s obsession with “standing up” to the Americans has led him, like many of his predecessors, to place Canada on the side of evil.

It’s disgusting and absolutely pathetic.

oh my! Glazov would equate anti-Americanism to being on the side of evil

yes, good on ya for finding your kindred spirit