jdobbin Posted February 9, 2009 Author Report Posted February 9, 2009 No, nor will we see any changes when you guys get back in, so stop whining until you can show me you're better than they are. Harper promised to do things differently. It seems he is increasingly finding ways to do it in a way that mirrors what he used to hate about the Liberals. Quote
OddSox Posted February 9, 2009 Report Posted February 9, 2009 John Baird is an idiot. When he was in the Ontario Legislature he was considered a blowhard. He rambled on an on about gov't spending then the Star printed an article when they discoverd that his department was the bigggest spenders. Posh dinners, etc. He even once submitted a receipt for .89 for Timbits. That's how cheap he is.He has zero credibility in Ontario. (Except for his riding with an unlimited pouring of cash) Such as? Quote
Moonbox Posted February 9, 2009 Report Posted February 9, 2009 Harper promised to do things differently. It seems he is increasingly finding ways to do it in a way that mirrors what he used to hate about the Liberals. I'll agree with that. I don't think anyone, even CPC supporters, have the same image of Harper as we did in 2004-2006. Having said that, in some ways he is still very different from Liberal idealogy and even you should be able to admit to the (increasingly more subtle these days) differences between the two. You would think a good strategist would try to spend in seats they want to take away, making sure the residents know it was a Tory initiative and that they are not as partisan as their reputation suggests. I think it is good strategy to spend where you think you'll win votes. The tories could spend billions in downtown Toronto and they'd still probably come up with nothing. Spending in Newfoundland would similarly flop. Quebec is probably a lost cause at this point too. I think fairness gets disregarded in favor of pragmatism when it comes to politics. I didn't read any of the numbers but I'd bet a disproportionate amount of stimulus is being spent in Ontario and other small C areas for the very reason that they'll pick up votes from red/blue swingers. Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he is for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
Argus Posted February 9, 2009 Report Posted February 9, 2009 Harper promised to do things differently. It seems he is increasingly finding ways to do it in a way that mirrors what he used to hate about the Liberals. Yes, exactly, which is why my enthusiasm for them has diminished quite a bit. However, knowing your bunch is the same gives me no incentive to go out and vote Liberal, nor to take complaints seriously when they come from people who have no intention of doing anything differently themselves. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Alta4ever Posted February 9, 2009 Report Posted February 9, 2009 Harper promised to do things differently. It seems he is increasingly finding ways to do it in a way that mirrors what he used to hate about the Liberals. He has done things alot different then Jean chretien. during his rein more infrastructure money was spent in his riding then in the whole province of Alberta. Quote "What about the legitimacy of the democratic process, yeah, what about it?" Jack Layton and his coup against the people of Canada “The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, ‘I’m from the government and I’m here to help.’” President Ronald Reagan
jdobbin Posted February 9, 2009 Author Report Posted February 9, 2009 during his rein more infrastructure money was spent in his riding then in the whole province of Alberta. Really? Where did you read that? Quote
jdobbin Posted February 9, 2009 Author Report Posted February 9, 2009 However, knowing your bunch is the same gives me no incentive to go out and vote Liberal, nor to take complaints seriously when they come from people who have no intention of doing anything differently themselves. Then don't vote Liberal. Advocate for a party that does do a better job but for pete's sake, don't settle for a party that does things that you hate. Quote
Moonbox Posted February 9, 2009 Report Posted February 9, 2009 Then don't vote Liberal. Advocate for a party that does do a better job but for pete's sake, don't settle for a party that does things that you hate. For pete's sake there is a very small list of alternatives, but you alreadly know that. It's almost always a question of which party will be better for you, as an individual or family. There's no point in voting for a party that has no chance of winning, which is often why the Liberals have such strong support from the left. Why would you say something silly like that knowing full well that it's impossibly unlikely another right-wing grass roots party will spring up in Alberta? You make it sound like you've never voted for someone you weren't 100% happy with... Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he is for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
Alta4ever Posted February 9, 2009 Report Posted February 9, 2009 Really? Where did you read that? I didn't read it I heard it from a former MP that i chat with on occasion. Quote "What about the legitimacy of the democratic process, yeah, what about it?" Jack Layton and his coup against the people of Canada “The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, ‘I’m from the government and I’m here to help.’” President Ronald Reagan
jdobbin Posted February 9, 2009 Author Report Posted February 9, 2009 I didn't read it I heard it from a former MP that i chat with on occasion. Well, forgive me if I have a hard time believing something from an anonymous poster who heard something from an anonymous MP. If anyone else said something so off the wall, you'd be asking if they were talking to their toaster. Quote
Alta4ever Posted February 9, 2009 Report Posted February 9, 2009 Well, forgive me if I have a hard time believing something from an anonymous poster who heard something from an anonymous MP. If anyone else said something so off the wall, you'd be asking if they were talking to their toaster. Again I have told you before that I really don't care if you do or don't beleive me, but for those who wish to search the library of parliment are free due the home work. I have a few people around me who I trust because they have earned it. Quote "What about the legitimacy of the democratic process, yeah, what about it?" Jack Layton and his coup against the people of Canada “The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, ‘I’m from the government and I’m here to help.’” President Ronald Reagan
jdobbin Posted February 9, 2009 Author Report Posted February 9, 2009 For pete's sake there is a very small list of alternatives, but you alreadly know that. It's almost always a question of which party will be better for you, as an individual or family. There's no point in voting for a party that has no chance of winning, which is often why the Liberals have such strong support from the left. If winning is your only reason for voting, I suppose you do have no choice. People vote NDP federally for a reason. It is because they believe it is principled and that it does matter. Why would you say something silly like that knowing full well that it's impossibly unlikely another right-wing grass roots party will spring up in Alberta? You make it sound like you've never voted for someone you weren't 100% happy with... I have voted for people who have had no chance of winning because it mattered. You believe that only winning matters. Quote
waldo Posted February 9, 2009 Report Posted February 9, 2009 He (Harper) has done things a lot different then Jean Chretien. During his (Chretien's) rein more infrastructure money was spent in his riding then in the whole province of Alberta.Really? Where did you read that?I didn't read it I heard it from a former MP that i chat with on occasion. anecdotal semi-name dropping case closed - Yeesh! Quote
jdobbin Posted February 9, 2009 Author Report Posted February 9, 2009 Again I have told you before that I really don't care if you do or don't beleive me, but for those who wish to search the library of parliment are free due the home work. I have a few people around me who I trust because they have earned it. Why does anyone have to find the information to back up your claim that Chretien's riding received more federal money than all of the infrastructure money ever spent in Alberta? You made the claim. I know you obviously don't care. I know you obviously don't care that the rules of this board are to try to provide a sources for your facts. Quote
Alta4ever Posted February 9, 2009 Report Posted February 9, 2009 Why does anyone have to find the information to back up your claim that Chretien's riding received more federal money than all of the infrastructure money ever spent in Alberta? You made the claim.I know you obviously don't care. I know you obviously don't care that the rules of this board are to try to provide a sources for your facts. they don't but if it interestd someone they would. Quote "What about the legitimacy of the democratic process, yeah, what about it?" Jack Layton and his coup against the people of Canada “The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, ‘I’m from the government and I’m here to help.’” President Ronald Reagan
jdobbin Posted February 9, 2009 Author Report Posted February 9, 2009 they don't but if it interestd someone they would. I think I can honestly say that you are a liar. If someone is interested, they wouldn't mind proving me wrong. Quote
Alta4ever Posted February 9, 2009 Report Posted February 9, 2009 I think I can honestly say that you are a liar. If someone is interested, they wouldn't mind proving me wrong. You can honestly say that? Sounds to me you are making a slanderous statment. Quote "What about the legitimacy of the democratic process, yeah, what about it?" Jack Layton and his coup against the people of Canada “The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, ‘I’m from the government and I’m here to help.’” President Ronald Reagan
jdobbin Posted February 9, 2009 Author Report Posted February 9, 2009 You can honestly say that? Sounds to me you are making a slanderous statment. I'm prepared to offer my most grave apology if I am shown to be wrong. Quote
Moonbox Posted February 9, 2009 Report Posted February 9, 2009 (edited) If winning is your only reason for voting, I suppose you do have no choice.People vote NDP federally for a reason. It is because they believe it is principled and that it does matter. I have voted for people who have had no chance of winning because it mattered. You believe that only winning matters. You have no idea what I believe. For someone who doesn't like to get personal you certainly have no problem telling me what my values are. It has nothing to do with winning. I voted for John Tory in the 2007 Ontario election even though he was CERTAIN to lose and we don't have to go over what his mistakes were. I voted for him because I thought crybaby Dalton was doing a horrific job and he was the best alternative. This is what you seem to have trouble realizing in most discussions. Politics are ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS about alternatives. I choose Harper (so far) over Ignatieff because he is the best alternative for ME. ALL of the other options are either: a ) Completely opposed to my philosophy of government (Green and NDP come to mind) or b ) Are such fringe parties that voting for them would be as effective as trying to fart down a brick wall. As a RATIONAL human being, if one of two parties are 99.99999% certain of winning the election, I will chose the one that suits me best. People can vote NDP or Green all they want. If they want to vote with their heart then that's fine, but our parliamentary system could not care less what you feel in the deepest part of your heart. It's very obvious which of the posters here follow that philosophy as well, because their arguments reflect it. Besides, the NDP actually gets elected and makes a difference in a lot of ridings. Even the Green Party has a chance in specific areas. Edited February 9, 2009 by Moonbox Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he is for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
jdobbin Posted February 9, 2009 Author Report Posted February 9, 2009 (edited) You have no idea what I believe. For someone who doesn't like to get personal you certainly have no problem telling me what my values are. I was simply re-stating what you just told me. You said this: There's no point in voting for a party that has no chance of winning That is personalizing? I wasn't making any sort of accusation. It has nothing to do with winning. I voted for John Tory in the 2007 Ontario election even though he was CERTAIN to lose and we don't have to go over what his mistakes were. I voted for him because I thought crybaby Dalton was doing a horrific job and he was the best alternative. Now I'm confused. You said earlier there was no point in voting for a party that had no chance of winning. This is what you seem to have trouble realizing in most discussions. Politics are ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS about alternatives. I choose Harper (so far) over Ignatieff because he is the best alternative for ME. ALL of the other options are either:a ) Completely opposed to my philosophy of government (Green and NDP come to mind) or b ) Are such fringe parties that voting for them would be as effective as trying to fart down a brick wall. I need not remind you that Reform started off as a fringe party and became a major force. As a RATIONAL human being, if one of two parties are 99.99999% certain of winning the election, I will chose the one that suits me best. Well, you had me confused with your statement about not voting for a party if it had no chance of winning. People can vote NDP or Green all they want. If they want to vote with their heart then that's fine, but our parliamentary system could not care less what you feel in the deepest part of your heart. It's very obvious which of the posters here follow that philosophy as well, because their arguments reflect it. Besides, the NDP actually gets elected and makes a difference in a lot of ridings. Even the Green Party has a chance in specific areas. The NDP has made a huge difference in Canadian politics. The big problem they seem to have is an actual desire to govern. Too many seem content to oppose. Edited February 9, 2009 by jdobbin Quote
Moonbox Posted February 9, 2009 Report Posted February 9, 2009 (edited) I was simply re-stating what you just told me. You said this: What you said was all I care about is winning. Now I'm confused. You said earlier there was no point in voting for a party that had no chance of winning. Take the statement in context. Stop trying to divide and pick apart and confuse every argument. Argus said he is unhappy with a lot of the things the CPC has done but he still thinks they are better than the Liberals. You told him to vote for someone else then. My question was who??? A marginal fringe party with no chance of affecting any change? There's no point in voting for them. I need not remind you that Reform started off as a fringe party and became a major force. The reform party filled in the vacuum in the west created by a collapsed PC party. That's not the environment we're looking at today. The NDP has made a huge difference in Canadian politics. The big problem they seem to have is an actual desire to govern. Too many seem content to oppose. No argument there. It's just not an alternative for myself or Argus. Edited February 9, 2009 by Moonbox Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he is for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
jdobbin Posted February 9, 2009 Author Report Posted February 9, 2009 What you said was all I care about is winning. It certainly seemed you placed a very high value on it since you said what was the point in voting if you didn't win. Take the statement in context. Stop trying to divide and pick apart and confuse every argument. Be clear what you mean. If you keep saying it is not worth voting for a party that doesn't win, it sounds like you place most of the value on winning. That isn't a context. It is simply stating back to you what you said. Argus said he is unhappy with a lot of the things the CPC has done but he still thinks they are better than the Liberals. You told him to vote for someone else then. My question was who??? A marginal fringe party with no chance of affecting any change? There's no point in voting for them. And I disagreed. I said if he sufficiently unhappy then to do something about it. Throwing hands up in the air and declaring futility just doesn't seem to be cutting it. If he feels that his party can be reformed, run for office. I did. It has to be better than making that old claim that all of the politicians are bums. Put your own bum on the line. Show them how it is done. The reform party filled in the vacuum in the west created by a collapsed PC party. That's not the environment we're looking at today. I think you have the timing all wrong. Reform was started at the height of the strength of the PC party and increasingly became the choice of those on the right. It was created with the collapse of the PCs. It was there already and growing in strength because it had a set of principles it was trying to achieve. No argument there. It's just not an alternative for myself or Argus. The find another party or run yourself. It sound like you might vote Tory no matter how bad it gets just because you can't find an alternative or unwilling to be that alternative. Quote
Alta4ever Posted February 9, 2009 Report Posted February 9, 2009 I'm prepared to offer my most grave apology if I am shown to be wrong. Do you not recall Shawinigate? I do prior to 2000 what was spent on alberta infrastructure by Federal liberals? Zero. Quote "What about the legitimacy of the democratic process, yeah, what about it?" Jack Layton and his coup against the people of Canada “The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, ‘I’m from the government and I’m here to help.’” President Ronald Reagan
Alta4ever Posted February 9, 2009 Report Posted February 9, 2009 Jean Chretien and the Sidewinder Report - 12:18pmJean Chretien has already demonstrated, in the Shawinigate scandal, .... Chretien gave more money to his riding in Shawinigan, as the Shawinigate scandals ... www.primetimecrime.com/contributing/2005/20050120Gray.htm - 74k - Quote "What about the legitimacy of the democratic process, yeah, what about it?" Jack Layton and his coup against the people of Canada “The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, ‘I’m from the government and I’m here to help.’” President Ronald Reagan
Smallc Posted February 9, 2009 Report Posted February 9, 2009 prior to 2000 what was spent on Alberta infrastructure by Federal liberals? Zero. Federal political parties don't usually spend money on provincial infrastructure projects.... Quote
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