Will real conservatives please stand up

[Sir Bandelot]

Is the end of the Conservative era looming?

CTV's Chief Parliamentary Correspondent Craig Oliver said Tuesday's budget marks the end of Conservative ideology because everyone's now committed to massive government spending.

"That's the end of Conservative economics as far as I know," he told CTV.ca.

We should have known it all along, and some of us did, that the so-called CPC party have simply used that name to garner votes from the misinformed public. Another nail in the coffin of Canadian politics, along with the failed Progressive Conservatives (thank you Prime Minster Mulroney) and now the failed Liberals (thank you Paul Martin, ad-scam, and the detritus in leadership that followed).

Away with all these worthless gougers of the public purse! Our politicians can no more lead the country. Men of skill and leadership have been replaced by their ill-mannered spoiled sons and daughters. Now only the truly wealthy and well-connected have a chance of getting into positions of political leadership, and with this budget we see why that is so important- protection of the wealth of the elite is guaranteed. What, use the peoples taxes to build infrastructure and reduce poverty? That would only happen if there was real money to be made, my friends. Meanwhile lets give a handout to the rich... they are at risk of dropping below their 20% profit margins.

Citizens, awake! Use your brains, and remember! Not more than a few years ago, we paid heavily our tax burden to reduce the national debt. Now in this time of global financial crisis, we are being drained again, as its been determined that our nations debt-load is much too low compared to others who have continued being irresponsible with their budgets. Hence, we must now pay for a bigger slice of THEIR problem! For banks, and investors there are no borders. A better question is- is the end of democratic autonomy looming?

Edited February 1, 2009 by Sir Bandelot

[Who's Doing What?]

I was pointing out their elitist ways when they announced their GST rollback. Sure it sounds great, but when you run the numbers a GST rollback only favours the wealthy. I haven't spent enough in two years to save what Richboy Millionaire saved in GST on his new Ferrari in one day.

[jdobbin]

A better question is- is the end of democratic autonomy looming?

Only if you decide not to run for office.

You've pointed out the problem, the solution is for good people who want to solve those problems running for office.

[M.Dancer]

I was pointing out their elitist ways when they announced their GST rollback. Sure it sounds great, but when you run the numbers a GST rollback only favours the wealthy. I haven't spent enough in two years to save what Richboy Millionaire saved in GST on his new Ferrari in one day.

So? given there are only a few dozens of ferraris sold each year in Canada, I bet many more saved a whack of Sunfires....your argument that it's bad because big purchases save more is envious at best.

[Who's Doing What?]

So? given there are only a few dozens of ferraris sold each year in Canada, I bet many more saved a whack of Sunfires....your argument that it's bad because big purchases save more is envious at best.

Does a 2% GST reduction mean more to me than lower income taxes? NO.

Do the rich who spend more on GST applicable items save more money than the common person? YES.

If the CPC were smart they would have lowered the income tax for the 1st $75,000 so that the lower income people have more money to spend(on GST applicable items no less). Instead they lowered a consumer tax which benifits large consumers the most.

It isn't just the big ticket items. Weekly trips to the salon for $100 worth of pampering is not something that is done by people in a low income bracket. Low income families are eating at McD's for about $30, while higher income families are eating at The Keg for about $150.

Just everyday spending is where the big difference is. It just keeps going. New couch? Your income is going to determine if it is the fabric or leather model you go home with.

A consumer tax is better because if you can afford to purchase more then you contribute more. 0% income tax and a higer GST would be ideal as far as I am concerned. Give me my whole paycheck, and what I spend on goods and services, I pay tax on. Sure stuff would get more expensive but we would have alot more money to spend.

[Born Free]

Does a 2% GST reduction mean more to me than lower income taxes? NO.

Have you bought a new home lately?

[Who's Doing What?]

Have you bought a new home lately?

2% x 300,000 = 6,000

So it would save you $6000 on a $300,000 home. A decent income tax cut would give that back to me in 2-3 years. That way I could take the income tax I saved and put it towards my mortgage which should help me pay it off sooner and save me even more money.

Then in the following 20+ years that income tax cut is going to mean a heck of a lot more to me than the initial $6000 I would have saved on the GST.

Edited February 2, 2009 by Who's Doing What?

[Progressive Tory]

Only if you decide not to run for office.

You've pointed out the problem, the solution is for good people who want to solve those problems running for office.

Cuts to the GST was nothing more than a gimmick, which we'll be paying for for years. Canada has not had a Conservative Party since they were swallowed up by the Alliance/Reform. The 'big tent' has sprung a leak.

[Born Free]

2% x 300,000 = 6,000

So it would save you $6000 on a $300,000 home. A decent income tax cut would give that back to me in 2-3 years.

Car purchases also come into play. However , when was the last time we've ever received an income tax rate cut like the one you just described?

I will say this though, the reveue sharing bit between retired spouses was major item for us old fogeys. It amounted to a substantial savings for us.

Edited February 2, 2009 by Born Free

[Born Free]

Canada has not had a Conservative Party since they were swallowed up by the Alliance/Reform. ...

So it would seem....

[waldo]

Oh my! From today’s Citizen – by Gerry Nicholls, former vice-president of the right-wing National Citizens Coalition… vice-president to then president Steve:

Oh yes - so much for the notion of fiscal conservatism!

If Mr. Ignatieff says jump, Mr. Harper will say how high on his way up. Kowtowing, by the way, is remarkably easy if you have no guiding principles.

Just look at how readily and eagerly the prime minister enacted a Liberal-pleasing budget that went against everything Conservatives are supposed to stand for.

And don't kid yourself, that budget was not about kick-starting the economy or providing a fiscal stimulus or fighting the recession -- it was about one thing and one thing only, ensuring the Tories keep power. This is why we can expect the Tories to introduce more Liberal-pleasing initiatives in the weeks and months ahead.

Eventually, of course, when it suits his timetable, Mr. Ignatieff will force an election which Mr. Harper will likely lose. So the Tories who jettisoned their principles for power, will ultimately end up with neither.

[msj]

Have you bought a new home lately?

Have you bought used residential lately?

Oh, right, no GST on that.

[Bryan]

Car purchases also come into play.

They sure do. Worked out well for me. I also bought several thousand dollars worth of computer and home electronic equipment last year, saved me a few extra hundred on stuff I was going to buy anyway.

However , when was the last time we've ever received an income tax rate cut like the one you just described?

Last year. I paid over $3000 less in taxes. So it's not either/or, it's and/and. No matter how you slice it, it's more of your own money to use as you see fit. A significantly better stimulus overall than spending increases would ever be. And at least the GST cut is SOMETHING for people whose income is such that they aren't paying taxes to begin with. Everybody gets something that way, it was the right thing to do.

[Mr.Canada]

I want a return to Reform policy. This platform was almost perfect.

[Progressive Tory]

I want a return to Reform policy. This platform was almost perfect.

You will probably be surprised to know that there were many elements in the Reform Party platform that I liked. Just not the ideology. Preston Manning remains on my list of Canadian Politicians that I admire. He did not come off as phoney. He was passionate in his beliefs and I respected him for that. He was also fiscally conservative, and I really respected him for that.

You might also be surprised to know that I like the rejected Super Bowl Pro-Life ad in your signature. I have absolutely no problem with any group using intelligent advertising to promote their cause. Screeching and wailing doesn't work for me.

I am still 100% pro-choice but respect reasonable argument. Pro-choice doesn't mean pro-abortion. Despite knowing that my grandson could inherit my daughter's disabilities, I still supported her choice to give birth to him. I was there in the delivery room and have been with him ever since. However, if my daughter had opted for an abortion, I would have supported that too.

[Wild Bill]

You will probably be surprised to know that there were many elements in the Reform Party platform that I liked. Just not the ideology. Preston Manning remains on my list of Canadian Politicians that I admire. He did not come off as phoney. He was passionate in his beliefs and I respected him for that. He was also fiscally conservative, and I really respected him for that.

You might also be surprised to know that I like the rejected Super Bowl Pro-Life ad in your signature. I have absolutely no problem with any group using intelligent advertising to promote their cause. Screeching and wailing doesn't work for me.

I am still 100% pro-choice but respect reasonable argument. Pro-choice doesn't mean pro-abortion. Despite knowing that my grandson could inherit my daughter's disabilities, I still supported her choice to give birth to him. I was there in the delivery room and have been with him ever since. However, if my daughter had opted for an abortion, I would have supported that too.

I think I understand why there's some confusion and disagreement between you and others in this thread, PT.

You seem to define a conservative as someone comfortable with the old Progressive Conservative party. Similar to someone wearing a familiar hockey jersey, if you like. However, many other folks use dictionary definitions.

The confusion comes from the fact that the old PCs never fit the dictionary definition of a conservative! To be fair, neither did (or do!) the Liberals.

This is a very common misunderstanding that can prolong arguments past the point of sensibility. I'm not making any value judgement. I'm not a conservative myself. Still, I'm more comfortable with dictionary definitions. It keeps everyone on the same page, so to speak.

[ToadBrother]

I think I understand why there's some confusion and disagreement between you and others in this thread, PT.

You seem to define a conservative as someone comfortable with the old Progressive Conservative party. Similar to someone wearing a familiar hockey jersey, if you like. However, many other folks use dictionary definitions.

The confusion comes from the fact that the old PCs never fit the dictionary definition of a conservative! To be fair, neither did (or do!) the Liberals.

This is a very common misunderstanding that can prolong arguments past the point of sensibility. I'm not making any value judgement. I'm not a conservative myself. Still, I'm more comfortable with dictionary definitions. It keeps everyone on the same page, so to speak.

I think the problem here is that ideologues and demagogues tend to lump both their allies and their opponents into narrowly-defined groups. A Conservative must believe certain things, a Liberal must believe certain things, and never shall the twain meet. It doesn't help that you frequently have political leaders and parties in general trying to enforce their ideological orthodoxy upon the membership. The truth is that people of different backgrounds, even where they join a particular movement, often have wildly variant ideas and beliefs.

What's more important is that political and economic crises can frequently force everyone to dispense with ideology. China may be technically Communist, but the horrors of the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution, and ultimately of watching their ideological brother (the USSR) collapse into near-anarchy forced China to essentially public espouse the old system while doing everything in its power to undermine it.

In the case of this major economic crisis, politicians around the world and of all stripes are being forced to essentially dump, even temporarily, their ideological roots. As Isaac Asimov once said, "Never let your sense of morality prevent you from doing what's right."

[Wild Bill]

As Isaac Asimov once said, "Never let your sense of morality prevent you from doing what's right."

Well, I've always been more of a "Robert Heinlein" kind of a guy...

[Progressive Tory]

Still, I'm more comfortable with dictionary definitions. It keeps everyone on the same page, so to speak.

What passes for Conservative these days has nothing to do with dictionary definitions. How does my admiring Preston Manning as a politician change anything? I admire a lot of people, for a variety of reasons. I would never have voted for him because I didn't like the Reform Party ideology. However, much of their platform made a lot of sense.

I'm not as partisan as some people, and don't believe my tongue will fall out if I say I liked Preston Manning and Ed Broadbent. They were both great leaders. I voted for neither.

[Progressive Tory]

In the case of this major economic crisis, politicians around the world and of all stripes are being forced to essentially dump, even temporarily, their ideological roots. As Isaac Asimov once said, "Never let your sense of morality prevent you from doing what's right."

That's a great quote. The trouble with Harper is that he told his base to dump their ideological roots before the economic crisis. He has nothing left to lure them with.

[ToadBrother]

That's a great quote. The trouble with Harper is that he told his base to dump their ideological roots before the economic crisis. He has nothing left to lure them with.

He has what he had when he first started making it clear that most of the social conservative platform that he inherited when he became leader of the Alliance would be dumped; namely power.

The Conservatives won't get back in time now, even when they dump Harper. The only way the Conservatives can secure any kind of victory, even a minority, is by moving to the Center, and that means no votes in the House on abortion, capital punishment or banning gay marriage. Unlike the Liberals, who could afford free votes and still not sweat it, a Conservative leader would have to be suicidal to let any such vote happen while he was sitting in the PMO.

Social Conservatism is dead in Canada. Either the Religious Right will have to suck it up and stick with the Conservatives or find one of those oddball uber-rightwing parties. They could, alternatively, recreate Reform. I'm sure that's what Iggy goes to bed every night praying for.

[Sir Bandelot]

Conservative leader tells donors to stop giving to RNC

Atlanta, Georgia (CNN)- The head of an influential social conservative organization urged members and supporters Wednesday to stop donating to the Republican National Committee and instead contribute to its own coffers or to candidates with like-minded goals.

"I've hinted at this before, but now I am saying it -- don't give money to the RNC," Perkins said in his column. "If you want to put money into the political process, and I encourage you to do so, give directly to candidates who you know reflect your values.

"If the RNC wants to represent conservatives and the Republican Party, then they have to act like conservatives -- in a moral, fiscal and ethical manner," (Former Sen. Rick Santorum, R-Pennsylvania) said. "When RNC officials seem to think it wise to spend a grandmother's monthly donation on wooing the younger generation by taking them to bondage-themed sex clubs instead of helping to elect a conservative, a real problem exists."

Even in the United States, the political birthplace of this neoconservative movement, real conservatives are trying their best to point out to the public that their name has been hijacked by ruthless self-serving right wingers. These people are not conservatives in the real sense, but are often descendants of religious and financially successful families with good connections to influential groups, and they have a strong sense of entitlement. This is the maturity of the "me" generation.