Nfld Liberal will vote against the budget

[Molly]

Waldo... 'percieved'... makes nice rhetoric, but the transgressions are very real, and so is the alienation.

I see Albertas particular brand of political narrowness and swagger as being far more hat than cattle, but there is no good reason for anyone west of the lakes to feel well loved, well treated or well defended by Canada. There's uncomfortable truth in the old cartoon of Canada as a cow, that eats in the west, gives milk in central Canada, and... you know the rest. Western interests are routinely traded off for the benefit of those on the other side of the shield. That's just a basic fact of life.

Manning is right in pointing out that the true source of the alienation, though, is 'frustrated aspirations', rather than unaddressed grievances. There is no expectation of restitution, or apology, or fair acknowledgement that the West has been (ill) used, nor even, really, that western interests will be better protected in the future.

The aspiration that is truly frustrated is full participation-- acceptance and acknowledgement as a part of the whole, and not just a resource to be used (up). In the long standing game of 'us and them' the West is invariably 'them'--- invariably dismissed as irrelevant, even in the dealing with issues that are 'of' the west.

Manning further expressed 'frustrated aspirations' with the slogan, 'The West wants in!'. It's still true.

[Wild Bill]

The Coalition related question to you was a request to substantiate your statement that the Coalition was, as you stated, “a total kick in the head to Western Canadians”.

I quit reading your 2nd West/Coalition link when the author assigned a “coup designation” to the Coalition. Your 1st West/Coalition link would have us associate that Western Canadian head-kicking to the masterful Conservative party manipulation, falsely decrying the Coalition as played out in the Conservative terminology of the day… unconstitutional, coup, illegitimate, illegal, separatist leaning. An article offering a collection of quotes from Conservative MPs and energy sector insiders framed within this shameful Conservative party manipulation – that’s your substantiation?

Well, at last a post with a civil tone! I was beginning to wonder if you are a different person using the same alias.

Anyhow, allow me to reiterate. I don't live in the West. I just have had the opportunity to read some of the history and be exposed to many Western Canadian views.

You don't have to convince me. The danger comes from the millions of people that live there becoming more intent on separation.

Your tone didn't seem to me to be very helpful to the situation. It still doesn't.

As for the Coalition, I believe I agreed that it was probably constitutional. Please don't use me as some kind of Conservative straw man and put words in my mouth. I said the idea was UNPOPULAR and it's obvious by the polls that is the judgement of the majority of Canadians!

I believe that few Canadians give a hoot about whether a coalition is constitutional! The idea seems to me to be a very poor defence for politicians who must care about garnering any future electoral support.

[Smallc]

Western interests are routinely traded off for the benefit of those on the other side of the shield. That's just a basic fact of life.

Examples?...Recent examples...

Edited February 2, 2009 by Smallc

[blueblood]

Examples?...Recent examples...

Ridiculously high transfer payments to Quebec, Gun Registry, CWB marketing choice, senate reform, healthcare reform, nuclear power

[Smallc]

Ridiculously high transfer payments to Quebec,

There's a formula in place for that....Manitoba and the 3 maritime provinces actually get more per capita than Quebec.

Gun Registry,

Not sure what that has to do with east - west...but ok, I'll give you that.

CWB marketing choice,

Only some in the west want that, not all.

senate reform,

See above remark, but I'll give you that too...though its not a new issue.

healthcare reform,

Again, only some want that. Also an area of provincial responsibility.

nuclear power

?

[blueblood]

Golly gee that's the kicker, the Maritime provinces and Quebec getting the lion's share of the loot. MB can pick up its socks, but if you like being a leech that's your perogative. How about lets shut off the tap and people can follow AB's example and balance their budgets on their own.

Most out west want marketing choice. I didn't say CWB abolishment, most want an option. The plebiscite says so.

SK and AB want nuclear power for the oil sands/prov. grid. These provinces don't have the hydro capacity that MB and BC have. It's a real pain in the ass to get a reactor up and running. Why does Ontario get to have one and not out West?

[Smallc]

How about lets shut off the tap and people can follow AB's example and balance their budgets on their own.

Equalization means nobody suffers. Its a very Canadian thing, and its something that I'm very fond of...its also constitutionally mandated.

Why does Ontario get to have one and not out West?

They can have one, they just have to jump through regulatory and safety hoops that now exist...for a reason.

[Alta4ever]

Equalization means nobody suffers. Its a very Canadian thing, and its something that I'm very fond of...its also constitutionally mandated.

They can have one, they just have to jump through regulatory and safety hoops that now exist...for a reason.

No equalization means eveybody suffers, just some more then others. Its not a Canadian thing its a very silly liberal program that no politician has had the bass to cancel.

"The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries." Winston S. Churchill

[blueblood]

Equalization means nobody suffers. Its a very Canadian thing, and its something that I'm very fond of...its also constitutionally mandated.

They can have one, they just have to jump through regulatory and safety hoops that now exist...for a reason.

No that's a very Russian thing. Your a fool if your fond of having your bank account raided for someone else's benefit. Constitutions can be changed.

Ontario didn't have to jump through hoops, why should Saskatchewan and Alberta? Punishing progress is the pillar of stupidity.

[Smallc]

No equalization means everybody suffers, just some more then others.

First, having socialized programs doesn't make a country socialist. Second, there are very few that are suffering in Canada. Its part of the reason that I love this country as much as I do. Equalization means that all people within this country get approximately the same services with approximately the same level of taxation. It means that as Canadians, we are all treated equally (in terms of government service), no matter where we live.

[Smallc]

Ontario didn't have to jump through hoops, why should Saskatchewan and Alberta?

Ontario didn't have to comply with regulatory and safety requirements?

I've already said how I feel about Equalization. Its about fairness for all Canadians and it ignores regional interest. I love the program.

[blueblood]

Ontario didn't have to comply with regulatory and safety requirements?

I've already said how I feel about Equalization. Its about fairness for all Canadians and it ignores regional interest. I love the program.

Visit My Website

How convenient that the Majority of Ontario's reactors were built prior to this legislation being passed. How come the ROC doesn't get these same benefits.

How fair is it to punish a province that's succeeding? Fairness is not punishing success. Fairness is about letting people get ahead and not holding anyone back. Equalization holds people back. Equalization is about as fair as communism. Punishing success is complete stupidity and it hurts everyone in the end.

Would it be fair to you to raid your wallet and give a large chunk of your money to the skids begging on Portage and Main?

Mind you people love that socialist poison when they are the benefactors of it. Scrap this ridiculous program and let the provinces raise their own money.

Edited February 2, 2009 by blueblood

[Oleg Bach]

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How convenient that the Majority of Ontario's reactors were built prior to this legislation being passed. How come the ROC doesn't get these same benefits.

How fair is it to punish a province that's succeeding? Fairness is not punishing success. Fairness is about letting people get ahead and not holding anyone back. Equalization holds people back. Equalization is about as fair as communism. Punishing success is complete stupidity and it hurts everyone in the end.

Would it be fair to you to raid your wallet and give a large chunk of your money to the skids begging on Portage and Main?

Mind you people love that socialist poison when they are the benefactors of it. Scrap this ridiculous program and let the provinces raise their own money.

Each province is as an estate and a common wealth - If a province with human and natural resourses can not mannage their own common wealth it simply means they have bad management - and that management should be replace immediately. No other province should be responsible for the up keep of another ...as for the "skids" they are no different than the skids on Wall Street and just as stupid - they get hand outs also as we know. Just because one man gets a bonus in the millions as a charitable donation - does not make him better or more humanly valuable that the guy who gets a toonie in his paper cup ...Have some respect!

[Smallc]

How convenient that the Majority of Ontario's reactors were built prior to this legislation being passed. How come the ROC doesn't get these same benefits.

Over time, safety regulations get more stringent (as they should), not less. As we learn more about things, we regulate it better and smarter. Sometimes, that means that things take longer and require more oversight and due diligence, but that certainly isn't a bad thing.

Punishing success is complete stupidity and it hurts everyone in the end.

No one is punishing success. The program is simply designed to ensure that no matter where Canadians live, they don't have to go without. Everyone has the same opportunity to succeed because of it. Yes, it does mean that federal dollars are not always doled out on a completely per capita basis (those who need get more than those who don't), but its not really all that punishing to anyone.

[blueblood]

Over time, safety regulations get more stringent (as they should), not less. As we learn more about things, we regulate it better and smarter. Sometimes, that means that things take longer and require more oversight and due diligence, but that certainly isn't a bad thing.

No one is punishing success. The program is simply designed to ensure that no matter where Canadians live, they don't have to go without. Everyone has the same opportunity to succeed because of it. Yes, it does mean that federal dollars are not always doled out on a completely per capita basis (those who need get more than those who don't), but its not really all that punishing to anyone.

That is a horrible thing. We were in an energy crisis and we want to waste our time with bureaucratic red tape? How about we take what we know and use it to work safely instead of making projects damn near impossible to start. Hindering growth on nuclear power is ivory tower nonsense at its finest.

Albertans are having to go without money to spend on things they want. Albertans opportunity to get ahead has been hampered because of equalization. What don't you understand about taking money away from somebody being punishment? If I forcibly take 100 dollars from you am I punishing you? How about if Canadians don't want to go without, they can move to where the action is? There's no law from preventing that.

[Smallc]

Albertans opportunity to get ahead has been hampered because of equalization.

Everyone pays the same level of Federal taxes. Albertans aren't being punished. The only difference between the have and have not province is that not as much money comes back to the have province as the have not. Its also important to note that a province can be have not and still be a net contributor.

Equalization is there, its not going anywhere (thank God), and I'm afraid just going to have to learn to live with it. I really don't know what else to say.

[Smallc]

Oh, and nuclear safety regulations are important. Alberta can and probably will build a reactor, they just have to comply with all safety, health, and environmental regulations in order to do it. but I suppose that's an example of punishing success also?

[Oleg Bach]

That is a horrible thing. We were in an energy crisis and we want to waste our time with bureaucratic red tape? How about we take what we know and use it to work safely instead of making projects damn near impossible to start. Hindering growth on nuclear power is ivory tower nonsense at its finest.

Albertans are having to go without money to spend on things they want. Albertans opportunity to get ahead has been hampered because of equalization. What don't you understand about taking money away from somebody being punishment? If I forcibly take 100 dollars from you am I punishing you? How about if Canadians don't want to go without, they can move to where the action is? There's no law from preventing that.

There has to be an actual purpose in punitive measures. It is supposed to improve the lot and mind of the one being punished to achieve a higher state of mindedness..that was the original reasoning in law for punintive actions - to educate ---we have lost sight of that - and to "forcibly take 100 dollars from you" - is not constructionally punitive - It is sheer spite - especially if you really don't need it - and can earn it yourself - It's also called theft - or when done with force - extortion.

[blueblood]

Oh, and nuclear safety regulations are important. Alberta can and probably will build a reactor, they just have to comply with all safety, health, and environmental regulations in order to do it. but I suppose that's an example of punishing success also?

Yes, that's punishing success. Why do we need all those regulations? How about building it and doing a good job running it. Saves everybody money and makes money.

But then your all about raiding Alberta's bank account to bankroll Winnipeg's socialist nonsense.

Everyone pays the same level of Federal taxes. Albertans aren't being punished. The only difference between the have and have not province is that not as much money comes back to the have province as the have not. Its also important to note that a province can be have not and still be a net contributor.

Equalization is there, its not going anywhere (thank God), and I'm afraid just going to have to learn to live with it. I really don't know what else to say.

Yes they are being punished, money they should be getting is going elsewhere. Like I said, the only people who like socialism are the ones who live off of it. Mulroney was the most unpopular prime minister when he left office, should people have just stayed home and "lived with it"? Gay marriage used to be an impossibility, should they have just "lived with it"?

Thank God we live in a democracy where we have the ability to change what we think is nonsense. Perhaps in the future transfer payments will be done away with.

[Smallc]

Yes, that's punishing success. Why do we need all those regulations?

Because people like to cut corners...and because of many other reasons. Its not punishing success, its about regulating and promoting safety.

Like I said, the only people who like socialism are the ones who live off of it.

I don't like socialism...but I do like some socialist ideas and ideals. I also like conservative ideas and ideals in some cases. People should never have to suffer, but they should have every chance to get above the baseline that society provides...its why I'm a Liberal.

Oh, and equalization doesn't come out of Alberta's bank account. It comes out of the taxes that all Canadians pay. without it, all people would pay the same level of Federal tax just as they do now. The difference is, some would pay much higher provincial taxes and receive much lower levels of service.

[blueblood]

Because people like to cut corners...and because of many other reasons. Its not punishing success, its about regulating and promoting safety.

I don't like socialism...but I do like some socialist ideas and ideals. I also like conservative ideas and ideals in some cases. People should never have to suffer, but they should have every chance to get above the baseline that society provides...its why I'm a Liberal.

Oh, and equalization doesn't come out of Alberta's bank account. It comes out of the taxes that all Canadians pay. without it, all people would pay the same level of Federal tax just as they do now. The difference is, some would pay much higher provincial taxes and receive much lower levels of service.

There's a line between safety and plain foolishness. Canada's nuclear regulators have crossed that line.

People do have a chance to get above baseline, they don't need to raid my bank account to do it. I could care less about gov't service. If you can't pay the bill then go without. People can suffer or succeed based on their own merits.

[Smallc]

People can suffer or succeed based on their own merits.

And I agree....but if they don't succeed, I want them to have something to fall back on, and I believe society has an obligation to provide that something...and that's where we part company. I think we're going to have to agree to disagree.

Edited February 2, 2009 by Smallc

[Alta4ever]

First, having socialized programs doesn't make a country socialist. Second, there are very few that are suffering in Canada. Its part of the reason that I love this country as much as I do. Equalization means that all people within this country get approximately the same services with approximately the same level of taxation. It means that as Canadians, we are all treated equally (in terms of government service), no matter where we live.

so wealth redistrabution, a socialist ideal, isn't socialist?

As for the bit about equal taxation for equal government service, welfare and other social programs are administered by the province transfer payments subsidize this for those provincial governments, are what is offered in NS, NFLD or QB is way higher then it is Alberta. My taxes are paying for this, but I have no say in those provinces about how that money is spent. Remeber Charest lowering taxes because Harper increased the equalization to that province.

It amounts to taxation without representation, and redistributes the wealth of province A for bad management in province B. It Nothing more but the story of the grasshopper and the ant.

[Alta4ever]

And I agree....but if they don't succeed, I want them to have something to fall back on, and I believe society has an obligation to provide that something...and that's where we part company. I think we're going to have to agree to disagree.

Society has no obligation to do anything. We give people a hand up because we are compasionate, but their comes a point when no matter what you do that person will abuse your generosity, and will need the boot in the but to get out the door and find a way to survive. The equalization payments are similar and have been grossly abused, time to cut off the gravy train.

Edited February 2, 2009 by Alta4ever

[waldo]

Waldo... 'percieved'... makes nice rhetoric, but the transgressions are very real, and so is the alienation.

perceived - dated, no first hand understanding of... hence, inferred - hence, perceived

transgressions - in the dated context (listen to Manning - in the past - move-on... giddy-up)

alienation - the trumped up specious fall-back go-to of a blustering few