O'Canada Anthem at Schools

LesterDC · January 30, 2009

Our anthem causes offence, our monarchy causes offence, our battles cause offence, our history causes offence. What does that leave in terms of Canadian patriotism? A flag, multiculturalism, and peacekeeping? All noble and good concepts, but the last two seem woefully inadequate as things a nation can rally around, and one acceptable national symbol - an only recently invented one, no less - isn't enough.
_{[ed. for sp.]}

While the Monarchy, anthem...etc should not cause offense,

the recent characteristics are distinctly CANADIAN. The former trademarks were borrowed from the British, as we were a dominion until fairly recently.

French + British + "Modern Canadian" ( Inc. Multiculturalism) = Canadian

Edited January 30, 2009 by LesterDC

Huston · January 30, 2009

I;ve never seen anything with a AA+ rating that is bankrupt either.

Well, maybe you should not care about a useless rating, when most countries are going further and further into debt. I don't how they calculate these rating, but the UK, France, and the US are creditor nations and will face monsterously difficult osbtactle to pay off their debt. It is not like they have ever had surpluses in a while like say Canada or Germany. Only can a state go with massive debt is still not be considered bankrupt. Absurd! But that's right, they can create money from nothing, and are not officially bankrupt untill their fiat currency collapse. My god!

Huston · January 30, 2009

They should sing it.

When ever I see or hear the word should, I become increasingly reluctant.

g_bambino · January 30, 2009

While the Monarchy, anthem...etc should not cause offense, the recent characteristics are distinctly CANADIAN. The former trademarks were borrowed from the British, as we were a dominion until fairly recently.
French + British + "Modern Canadian" ( Inc. Multiculturalism) = Canadian

I'm not sure what "former trademarks" you're referring to, but, indeed, your equation should ring true. I wonder, though, how much "British" factors into it, given what I said above. Even though they've been tweaked to now be uniquely Canadian, anything remotely related to the UK, whether historically or not, seems an open target for accusations of offensiveness. Most everything else - including that which was "borrowed" from France - is, of course, perfectly acceptable.

LesterDC · January 30, 2009

I'm not sure what "former trademarks" you're referring to, but, indeed, your equation should ring true. I wonder, though, how much "British" factors into it, given what I said above. Even though they've been tweaked to now be uniquely Canadian, anything remotely related to the UK, whether historically or not, seems an open target for accusations of offensiveness. Most everything else - including that which was "borrowed" from France - is, of course, perfectly acceptable.

By former trademarks, I meant the trademarks of old. How Canada was like when it was fully a British dominion. We still hold these institutions - we are still a parliamentary democracy and a monarchy. As for offensiveness, I am not sure what you are talking about... I believe most people favour the Monarchy..

At any rate, we are pretty late into the game.. It is only good that we are able to find our own "identity".

noahbody · January 30, 2009

I'm not opposed to revising the lyrics. All that needs to be done is change "God keep our land, glorious and free" to "O'Canada, glorious and free." The version I sung in elementary prior to 1980, as I recall, didn't mention God yet it seemed to do the trick.

cybercoma · January 30, 2009

Conversations go where they go. I didn't specifically bring immigrants into this one, merely reflected upon how to some people, there's nothing at all special about being a Canadian. So why bother to celebrate it in any way, including singing an anthem or showing respect for a flag.

Your post was not about there being nothing special about being "Canadian". Your post was about the birth right of people born here. Of course, when pressed, your ideology wouldn't include the children of immigrants, if your previous posts are any indication.

Wilber · January 30, 2009

What I was driving at was that Canadian pride seems so false, I go south of the border and I see flags everywhere, "God bless America" is all over the place. I'm hard pressed to find anyone wearing a Canadian flag their shoulder much less the Canadian Flag on one and a support the troops patch on the other like myself. Good luck finding anyone but a soldier sporting a Canadian Flag. I mean in the USA every cop has one either on a shoulder or on their chest.
It took me months prior to Christmas to find a belt buckle of the Canadian flag for my grandfather, they are common place in the USA. Canadians fall short when it comes to showing love for their country and this measure seems to take it all that much farther.

It is bad manners to fly your flag in someone else's country however the reason you see Canadian flags on shoulders and back packs in other parts of the world is because the message being sent is, I am not an American. It has little to do with being Canadian. They show their flag and sing their anthem, we mustn't do that because it makes us like them. Kind of sad really, defining yourself by who you are not.

guyser · January 30, 2009

What I was driving at was that Canadian pride seems so false, I go south of the border and I see flags everywhere, "God bless America" is all over the place.

And it is my opinion that one 'notices' the abundance of flags in the USA, but does not when back on home soil.Do I think they fly more than we do, sure, but not by much.

Frankly, God Bless Canada I can do without. But thats another thread.

I'm hard pressed to find anyone wearing a Canadian flag their shoulder much less the Canadian Flag on one and a support the troops patch on the other like myself. Good luck finding anyone but a soldier sporting a Canadian Flag. I mean in the USA every cop has one either on a shoulder or on their chest.

So do our cops.

Fashion should not be confused with patriotism. Eight ball jackets, Members Only jackets,Mikey Jackson Pedo Orange jackets were all at one time or another fashion statements (Members Only>oh my) as were the leather jackets w the giant US flag on the back. It was not patriotism per se, although one could easily say it was, but to me seems more like stupid jingoism.

It took me months prior to Christmas to find a belt buckle of the Canadian flag for my grandfather, they are common place in the USA. Canadians fall short when it comes to showing love for their country and this measure seems to take it all that much farther.

Because we dont have belt buckles of the maple leaf? Again, to me at least , this lends itself more to fashion along the lines of country and western music, although that line gets blurry in this case.

I only agree about the Canadian history, I find it hard to find true love for Canada out there.

I dont. Our experiences with Canada Day crowds should tell us that.

I see it everywhere, and I really dont need an anthem , sung ad naseum, to remind me this is a great country.

I dont see our song as inherently bad, or poor as one poster put it.I see it as a fine anthem, one I am proud to hear , but I dont need it everyday.

madmax · January 30, 2009

It is bad manners to fly your flag in someone else's country...

Many companies now fly the American Flag without the Canadian Flag in my region. The American Flag is atop of the local Tim Hortons/Wendys franchise. It may be bad manners, but the American Flag is just as common as the Canadian Flag in my area.

however the reason you see Canadian flags on shoulders and back packs in other parts of the world is because the message being sent is, I am not an American.

Exactly.

g_bambino · January 30, 2009

By former trademarks, I meant the trademarks of old. How Canada was like when it was fully a British dominion. We still hold these institutions - we are still a parliamentary democracy and a monarchy. As for offensiveness, I am not sure what you are talking about... I believe most people favour the Monarchy.

Perhaps I and the others I've spoken to about this are in the minority with our feelings, but I get the general impression that overt expressions of appreciation or celebration of those things Canadian but with British origins is something to be done with nervous caution and a tempering sense of embarrassment. Maybe it's just because I live in Toronto, but there's no events for something like Victoria Day except for a couple of fireworks that nobody knows what for; and there are movements afoot to see the day renamed as Citizenship Day. You'd also be hard pressed to find a portrait of the Queen, despite her being our head of state, and the monarchy having been a distinctly Canadian institution for the last 80 or so years. Remembrance Day ceremonies are sparsely attended, and only a scattering of people know the words to the royal anthem when it is sung. The only Canadian thing one sees proudly displayed is the national flag, or variations thereof on hats, shirts, stuffed toys, stickers, etc., on Canada Day. There's also presently a charter based case in the Ontario courts that seeks to have the requirement to swear allegiance to the monarch in the Oath of Citizenship struck down because it upsets some immigrants with anti-British beefs.

I only wonder how far someone would get if they started a campaign to rename Journée nationale des Patriotes in Quebec because it's an offensive celebration of a violent rebellion against established law and order.

Wilber · January 30, 2009

Many companies now fly the American Flag without the Canadian Flag in my region. The American Flag is atop of the local Tim Hortons/Wendys franchise. It may be bad manners, but the American Flag is just as common as the Canadian Flag in my area.

Really, can't say I have seen that around here. Still bad manners IMO unless you at least fly the same size flag of the country you are in beside it. Embassies excepted of course.

Wilber · January 30, 2009

Maybe it's just because I live in Toronto, but there's no events for something like Victoria Day except for a couple of fireworks that nobody knows what for; and there are movements afoot to see the day renamed as Citizenship Day.

Not Here

kimmy · January 31, 2009

This is exactly as it was when I was in school - and I went to a pretty traditional private school. The national and royal anthems were sung only during certain special assemblies

Thank goodness, I was starting to think I was the only one. I find it pretty hard getting all worked up about this news article when I never went to a school where the anthem was sung daily.

-k

cybercoma · January 31, 2009

Thank goodness, I was starting to think I was the only one. I find it pretty hard getting all worked up about this news article when I never went to a school where the anthem was sung daily.
-k

Clearly, you think Canadians are nothing special and could give a crap less about this country, as a result of your lack of exposure to the anthem, right?

Topaz · January 31, 2009

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...y/National/home I think the princpal may change his mind.

Topaz · January 31, 2009

http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/use...eafForever.html Opinions on this?

Topaz · January 31, 2009

Here's another view...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Maple_Leaf_Forever

Wilber · January 31, 2009

Thank goodness, I was starting to think I was the only one. I find it pretty hard getting all worked up about this news article when I never went to a school where the anthem was sung daily.
-k

Me neither, we said the Lords Prayer at the beginning of the day. A non starter today as it should be but one could hardly cite religious diversity when it comes to the anthem unless atheists don't like the use of the word god in any form. So what, no one is forced to believe in anything else that is taught in school either. We have a national anthem kids and this is it. Maybe you should grow up knowing that it is not the Star Spangled Banner. No one in this country is forced to sing the anthem. No one will get sick from listening to it. This is not like banning peanut butter sandwiches because some kids have severe allergies to the stuff.

Oleg Bach · January 31, 2009

It's just great when a dummied down female black Canadian student will say ---"it's great the we have Obama to save our country"... As we get rid of the patriarchy ----and dupe the matriarchy into oblivion...and send off soldiers to kill and be killed for no apparent reason - may as well get rid of the national athem...a Nation signfys a large extended family.....seeing the family is in the process of being destroyed - well - may as well get all international and get rid of the name Canada as our surname...now "country" means real estate ...mabye we could have a country athem...and that damned nationalism or tribal familism...well they have to go..Why is it I feel the world is being dismantled under my ass? :blink:

jbg · February 1, 2009

Umm, the US is bankrupt. Ahh, that would be called a failure. Isreal leetching off hand outs is a failure as well. Now I know why you put Palestinians in quotations...

I live in the U.S. If the U.S. be bankrupt being bankrupt is great.

All joking aside, the U.S. has always alternated between speculative booms and banking problems. The old term, I think used first right after Van Buren succeeded Jackson as President was a banking "Panic", thus the "Panic of 1837". What is occurring now is "same sh*t different day". The booms are always overdone as is the subsequent gloom.

jbg · February 1, 2009

At my school also sang God Save the Queen after our weekly assembly, and when I went to high school, nobody from any other school even knew the tune. That is despicable. It would be even worse if our national anthem goes the same way.

Aren't the right words to that song?:

Our country t'is of thee, 
Sweet land of liberty,
Of thee I sing, 
Land of our father's pride,
Land where the Pilgrim's cried,
On every mountainside let freedom ring.

I transcribed that from memory and my memory may not be perfect, but I tihnk those are the words. Some sing is as:

G-d save our gracious Queen

Long live our noble Queen

G-d save the Queen

Send her victorious

Happy and glorious

Long to reign over us

G-d save the Queen

2. O Lord our G-d arise

Scatter her enemies

And make them fall

Confound their politics

Frustrate their knavish tricks

On Thee our hopes we fix

G-d save us all

3. Thy choicest gifts in store

On her be pleased to pour

Long may she reign

May she defend our laws

And ever give us cause

To sing with heart and voice

G-d save the Queen

4. Not in this land alone

But be G-d's mercies known

From shore to shore

Lord make the nations see

That men should brothers be

And form one family

The wide world over

5. From every latent foe

From the assassins blow

G-d save the Queen

O'er her thine arm extend

For Britain's sake defend

Our mother, prince, and friend

G-d save the Queen

(and not sure where this comes from or if it's legit)

6. Lord grant that Marshal Wade

May by thy mighty aid

Victory bring

May he sedition hush

And like a torrent rush

Rebellious Scots to crush

G-d save the King

Edited February 1, 2009 by jbg

jbg · February 1, 2009

The first observation is very interesting. But, I wonder if the latter assertion should place the cause, instead of guilt over living a "good life", with the phenomenon of "white guilt"; i.e. traditional Canadian nationalism has become associated solely with Anglo-Saxon, Protestant, colonial oppression, incompatible with multiculturalism, and any outward expression of which is disfavoured over celebrations of the more freshly imported cultures of ethnic minorities. One might even narrow that down further to make it "white English guilt", as the Quebecois, despite being white and Christian themselves, seem able to quite proudly display traditional symbols of their culture - the royal fleur-de-lis, patriotic songs, anniversaries of rebellions - without recourse, whereas outside of Quebec, doing the same with traditional Canadian symbols is generally met with a hand-wringing worry about who's being offended by what. Even something as seemingly trivial as putting on a show with our air force jets has come under scrutiny, with some in Toronto complaining that the F-18 acts in the annual air show should be cut, as they remind these individuals of the war in their homeland, cause them stress, and make their children cry. To express any criticism of this type of thinking is generally met with an accusation of insensitivity at best, racism at worst.

Thanks.

I was looking for the right term, and I could have used the term "white English guilt" just as easily.

Huston · February 1, 2009

I live in the U.S. If the U.S. be bankrupt being bankrupt is great.
All joking aside, the U.S. has always alternated between speculative booms and banking problems. The old term, I think used first right after Van Buren succeeded Jackson as President was a banking "Panic", thus the "Panic of 1837". What is occurring now is "same sh*t different day". The booms are always overdone as is the subsequent gloom.

Your country was not bankrupt during the Panic of 1837 (actually, pretty much no debt at all at this time. Andrew Jackson knew what made speculation easy, so he closed down the Central Bank. Panic indeed), or the Crash of 1929.=

So Ron Paul, Peter Shiff, Jim Rogers, and Max Keiser about the US? Obama only know seems to be getting what is really the problem. Hopefully he has enough intelligence to stop this fake growth, accept that pain will happen, so that people start being productive again, of course that would mean less corporatism, and less regulations that have made it near impossible to start a business. Maintaining artificially high housing prices will only make matters worse. But you know what they are doing, the FED is trying to inflate the money supply, because they CANNOT pay off their debt. What easier way to fix the problem of debt by inflating it away. Yes, that will be great when you have to pay $100 for a loaf of bread, and I am going easy on this. That is nothing compared to Weimar Republic or Zimbabwe. Lets see how wages even out during that.

Peter Schiff was worng on the date of the collapse of the dollar. Max Keiser wasn't sure if it was going to happen, but now he say in about 6 months.

I just hope Canada is not dumb enough to keep the CAD at 80cent USD, of course once it collapses. Lol, and Ron Paul has been calling this for decades.

jbg · February 2, 2009

Your country was not bankrupt during the Panic of 1837 (actually, pretty much no debt at all at this time. Andrew Jackson knew what made speculation easy, so he closed down the Central Bank. Panic indeed), or the Crash of 1929.=

It is true that there was no national debt. What happened in the wake of the closing of the National Bank was the spread of unregulated, unspervised banks that fueled speculation, followed by the Panic of 1837. Do those facts sound familiar?

So Ron Paul, Peter Shiff, Jim Rogers, and Max Keiser about the US? Obama only know seems to be getting what is really the problem.

Huh? Is neither English nor Canadian your first language?

Hopefully he has enough intelligence to stop this fake growth, accept that pain will happen, so that people start being productive again, of course that would mean less corporatism, and less regulations that have made it near impossible to start a business. Maintaining artificially high housing prices will only make matters worse. But you know what they are doing, the FED is trying to inflate the money supply, because they CANNOT pay off their debt. What easier way to fix the problem of debt by inflating it away. Yes, that will be great when you have to pay $100 for a loaf of bread, and I am going easy on this. That is nothing compared to Weimar Republic or Zimbabwe. Lets see how wages even out during that.

How much deflation do you want? My own guess is that the real deflation hasn't shown up in price indices yet, but we may be down 5-8% in prices year over year soon.

Peter Schiff was worng on the date of the collapse of the dollar. Max Keiser wasn't sure if it was going to happen, but now he say in about 6 months.
I just hope Canada is not dumb enough to keep the CAD at 80cent USD, of course once it collapses. Lol, and Ron Paul has been calling this for decades.

Not sure what you're getting at.