What is it with Martin?

[August1991]

The Liberals are about to embark on a campaign based on the Paul Martin Team because the polls show him leading the party. The word is about "re-branding" the Liberal logo. Yet, it seems to me there is something wrong with this idea.

Honest to God, I have nothing against the man, but I have the impression Canadians are not comfortable with him.

Can someone clue me in? Or am I mistaken?

Is it that Martin was perceived as a good Finance Minister under Chretien, they formed a good team somehow, but he's not good solo?

Or is that he's frenetic, runs around everywhere giving press conferences, and raises his voice an octave or two when he gets excited?

Or is that he was ambitious and got the job through, let's say, indirect means?

Or is that he's just dishonest because he has all those ships abroad and plays dumb about the sponsorship deal?

Is it because he's older than Mulroney?

Heck, I can't figure. On paper, the guy looks like the Liberal candidate from heaven but it seems to me there's something wrong.

If you're a true-red Liberal, please explain. What gives?

[maplesyrup]

Maybe lacking in charisma.

harper has even less than Martin.

Jack Layton has it in spades.

[Goldie]

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Columnists/W.../23/391906.html

This might help explain things a little.

[August1991]

Goldie, OK, someone else seems to have the same feeling as I do, but WHY? What is it about the guy? On paper, he's perfect. So, what's wrong?

[Dennis]

Jack Layton has it in spades.

If you think that being nutty is an example of charisma, then...

As for Paul Martin, the man's personal popularity numbers are apparently very high.

Voters seems to have less of a problem with him than they do with the Liberals.

Maybe they see him as some kind of victim.

And maybe that's where some of his problems lie.

Canadians have always like him, but they see him as kind of a trafic figure - wrong place, wrong time, bested by a more shrewd and cunning man in Jean Chretien?

Kind of like the son who the parents may have always liked better but knew was a bit of a loser?

[August1991]

Dennis, I agree, there's something wrong, but what is it?

Kind of like the son who the parents may have always liked better but knew was a bit of a loser?

Really? Paul Martin Junior? What would his Dad say?

[Goldie]

Well my personal feeling of him is that PM.Martin is a goof.

I know that is simplistic but you watch him walking on that ranch in Alberta and he is clearly pigeon toed. He also has a stammer when speaking off script. A combination of Goofy and Porky the Pig is not a good mix for a leader.

I think people also have a sense of unease because he hasn't really done anything in 10 years and there is nothing on the horizon for Canada from him.

[August1991]

Well my personal feeling of him is that PM.Martin is a goof.

A goof? A doofus? Not really.

In a column, Jeffrey Simpson had him running as an Opposition Leader against the Liberal Party. It's not that either.

Is there a literary, Liberal voter out there that can explain this? I need a Newfoundlander to make this one plain.

[Dennis]

Is there a literary, Liberal voter out there that can explain this?

You're looking for a literature professor or something?

Don't know exactly what you mean by 'literary' Liberal voter.

Also, you seem to have some idea of what you're thinking.

Instead of shooting down the rest of us, why not give us something of your own?

[Michael Hardner]

I'm not a true-red Liberal, but I concur with the above comments. He doesn't have that PM aura yet, (PM meaning Prime Minister, not Paul Martin ) but he's getting better.

I suspect both he and Harper will get better at it in the coming weeks.

The public is a little confused right now by all the new faces (Martin, Goodale, Harper, McKay, Layton) but I suspect they will re-elect the Liberals anyway.

But it could be a minority government. If so, the NDP would be the obvious choice to team up with the Liberals.

[Dennis]

The public is a little confused right now by all the new faces (Martin, Goodale, Harper, McKay, Layton) but I suspect they will re-elect the Liberals anyway.

You might be right, but I think we still might be headed for one of the best debated elections we've had in a long time.

The visions and choices seem very different from one another.

There's Paul Martin and the Liberals, who want a face-lift of the government yet a continuation of Liberal rule. They also want to keep flip-flopping on international issues.

There's Stephen Harper and the Conservatives, who want to chip away at that same type of rule - which they think is too much government and fundamental waste. They also want a stronger voice in international affairs and one that doesn't trample of traditional friendships, esp. via the US.

There's Jack Layton and the NDP, who want to spend spend spend and, presumably tax tax tax in order to pay for it all. They also want Canada to resent American foreign policy, and say nothing about Canada's role in the world - except to be stong on 'soft' issues like foreign aid and such.

There's Gilles Duceppe and the Bloc, whose policies seem to mirror those of the NDP, except when it comes to provincial rights. But with them, their only ultimate usefullness comes as a Quebec protest to the Liberals, and as some kind of power broker in a minority government situation.

Cheers

[August1991]

He doesn't have that PM aura yet, (PM meaning Prime Minister, not Paul Martin ) but he's getting better.

Getting better? He's learning?

Don't know exactly what you mean by 'literary' Liberal voter. Also, you seem to have some idea of what you're thinking.

Honestly, I have no idea what I mean. But Crosbie-types seem good at getting this one right. (Where is a Newfoundlander when you need one?)

Let me explain. When I think of myself as an English-Canadian, I feel there's something wrong about Martin. But I can't explain what. So, what is it? (Thanks Goldie for The Winnipeg Sun article. It made me feel good that I'm not alone.)

But what is it about Martin? Can a Newf, or a literary Liberal explain this?

[Dennis]

literary Liberal

What exactly is that?

[August1991]

Literary Liberal? Adrienne Clarkson? (Ugh!)

I think you're right, Dennis. The upcoming election augurs a real debate. (I have a sneaking suspicion that Martin won't hold his own. That saddens me.)

[maplesyrup]

Bay Street loves Martin - that is his ticket to fame.

When all is said and done, Canadians will probably re-elect the Liberals, perhaps with fewer seats.

[Michael Hardner]

There's Jack Layton and the NDP, who want to spend spend spend and, presumably tax tax tax in order to pay for it all. They also want Canada to resent American foreign policy, and say nothing about Canada's role in the world - except to be stong on 'soft' issues like foreign aid and such.

FYI the NDP has pledged that they will balance the budget. Presumably, this puts them to the right of the Republicans...

[Dennis]

Martin vs. Harper vs. Layton vs. Duceppe

My ranking:

1. Harper (if people get beyond cool outer shell)

2. Martin/Layton (which may be the real test of the election. So far, Martin hasn't been able to fend off Layton, in my opinion. It shouldn't be that hard, except that Layton is out-demagoguing Liberals, so not much left for Martin to use)

4. Duceppe (except that maybe his organization on the ground in Quebec is good, which might put him ahead of Martin/Layton)

If the above rankings hold, we should have Conservative minority government.

Which, if Harper is as smart as he seems, he should be able to turn into an eventual majority in a follow-up election.

Cheers

[Dennis]

There's Jack Layton and the NDP, who want to spend spend spend and, presumably tax tax tax in order to pay for it all. They also want Canada to resent American foreign policy, and say nothing about Canada's role in the world - except to be stong on 'soft' issues like foreign aid and such.

FYI the NDP has pledged that they will balance the budget. Presumably, this puts them to the right of the Republicans...

And how does that contradict what I said?

He already has said he wants to spend spend spend. So, he'll also have to tax tax tax to pay for it, right?

Just because you balance budgets doesn't make you a right-winger. Its how you do it that counts.

Also, saying and doing are two different things, of course.

Layton promises a balanced budget. I don't think that promise is worth the paper its printed on, especially because it won't matter - they will never form a government anyway.

[August1991]

I'm anxious to see the post Tory convention, post budget polls. I suspect the Liberals will still be ahead. I hope the pollsters ask people, somehow, their feelings about Martin. It seems to me it matters.

Sorry guys to interrupt the debate. Carry on.

[willy]

The polls will be hard to interpret until the writ is dropped. It is traditional that most Canadians don't pay that much attention until the election is at hand.

As for your question about Martin.

He was a great opposite of Chrétien. This may have only been image but one a business man and the other a life long politician. One big on environment and law and the other big on finance. As a combination people were left thinking they will balance each other out. They appeared to both hold power in the party and this gave us confidence that this would moderate decisions. Chrétien would want to spend and Martin would push back.

This was image. Now it is just Martin and he seems confused. He promises social program investment and comes with half measures. He says look at my balance budget, but we see spending scandals. At closer examination people are also noting how he balance the budget and realize that provincial governments were left with the bill while federal ministries kept spending. He is falling through the middle and loosing his appeal on both sides. And lastly when you have lost peoples trust you have no ability to communicate. He is like the beautiful model that becomes ugly when you get to know her.

[August1991]

He is like the beautiful model that becomes ugly when you get to know her.

Is that it? Pierre Sevigny? Christine Keeler? Gerda Munsinger?

A scandal?

I sincerely hope you're wrong.

[Goldie]

Over the past three months, the Martin government has exhibited the symptoms of the kind of intellectual fatigue that only a spell in opposition can usually cure.

Those have included a less-than-stellar cabinet line-up and a chronic incapacity to think outside the policy box.

This vacuum goes a long way to explain how it is that Martin cannot find his way to turning the page on the sponsorship scandal.

Given all of the above, Harper's smooth weekend victory makes it inconceivable that the Liberals call an election until they have some assurance that they are on the way back in Quebec.

Chantal Hebert said it best in Mondays Toronto Star

[maplesyrup]

Perhaps Martin s salvation may come from a

comment heard about the Conservative leadership race:

Stepen harper was the best of three uninspiring candidates.