The 10 million dollar mistake?

[85RZ500]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...ernational/home

Did Arar pull the wool over our eyes or what? Will we ever know the truth?

[August1991]

Well, well, well... I wonder if he cashed that cheque, because there may be some new questions for Maher Arar to answer:

Maher Arar, the Ottawa computer engineer whose 2002 deportation and torture in Syria made him a symbol of the perils of post-9-11 hysteria, was identified by Omar Khadr as someone he'd seen at al-Qaeda safehouses and possibly an Afghan training camp, an FBI special agent testified Monday.

The teenaged, Toronto-born Khadr immediately identified Mr. Arar from a black and white photo he was shown during two weeks of interrogation that got under way Oct. 7, 2002, at a U.S. base in Afghanistan, FBI Special Agent Robert Fuller told Mr. Khadr's war-crimes trial in Guantanamo Bay.

“He identified him by name,” Mr. Fuller testified. “He said he had never seen him in Canada.”

Link

Now what? Will government lawyers now sue Arar to recuperate the money only to lose later so that Arar can get another $50 million settlement for defamation?

The fundamental problem here is that no one is paying their own money to Arar. They are giving taxpayer (our) money to him.

[August1991]

The military tribunal is also holding pretrial hearings this week in the case of Omar Khadr, a Canadian who was 15 when he allegedly killed a U.S. soldier, Sgt. 1st Class Christopher Speer of Albuquerque, New Mexico, with a grenade during a battle in Afghanistan in 2002.

Lawyers for the Toronto, Canada native want to exclude statements they say Khadr made through torture and coercion. Prosecution witnesses denied their allegation. One, identified only as "interrogator 11," characterized some sessions as "lighthearted," and testified that "he always came in smiling and very willing to talk to us."

Khadr's hearing continues Tuesday, though his lawyer and many other observers expect Obama will suspend the commissions before his trial starts next week.

IHT

Khadr was smilling and lighthearted when he explained all this?

[Molly]

I don't think there is a darned word coming from Guantanamo that can be trusted. Not one word.

[CANADIEN]

Let me check here...

A prosecution witness in a kangaroo court, who cannot be identified. Who testifies on the interrogation of a 15 year old done in conditions that would lead to the testimony being thrown out of any regular court of law. Add to that the fact that some of the interrogators and guards in the Bagram prison, where Khadr was interrogated, were later charged in the death of another prisoner.

Khadr should spend a lenghty period of time in jail... after a legitimate trial, not what is taking place in Guantanamo. That being said, what he was subjected to in Bagram is coercion at best, torture at worst; most everebody under such conditions would say about anything they think would please the captors.

If the Khadr "testimony" constitute a reliable proof that Maher Arar is a dangerous individual, how is it that Stockwell Day saw the secret file maintained by the US authorities then said was nothing in there justifying Arar being banned from the US? How come the US Government didn't reveal the "truth" to the O'Connor Commission?

It will take more than a frightened 15-year old saying "I know him" when shown a photograph for me to believe in the guilt of a man who was cleard by a public inquiry.

[Mr.Canada]

It will take more than a frightened 15-year old saying "I know him" when shown a photograph for me to believe in the guilt of a man who was cleard by a public inquiry.

He isn't 15, he's a adult now. Nice try. The government was under tremendous pressure from the media and the left to award Arar funds. So it's sort of funny to watch them squirm now. I don't understand why this is so hard to believe that Arar isn't an angel.

[Molly]

....... so much easier to believe that there are no American asses to cover, in the US rush to war (crimes).

This falls into the same category as the US knowing that ther were WMD in Iraq because they kept the reciepts. They are accurately reporting what the boy said, because they handed him the script.

Nothing credible in it, Mr. C. Not a single, solitary word worth hearing.

The only reason that prison even exists is because it can't stand scrutiny.

Edited January 20, 2009 by Molly

[Mr.Canada]

....... so much easier to believe that there are no American asses to cover, in the US rush to war (crimes).

This falls into the same category as the US knowing that ther were WMD in Iraq because they kept the reciepts. They are accurately reporting what the boy said, because they handed him the script.

Nothing credible in it, Mr. C. Not a single, solitary word worth hearing.

The only reason that prison even exists is because it can't stand scrutiny.

So Khadr's words lack credibility?

Who handed Arar his script?

[85RZ500]

LOL, someone fixed my double post and got a link to work. Thank you. This old computer dummy couldn't figure it out, a delete button would be nice for mistakes, double posts and , on second thoughts.

Back on topic. I've never believed Arar's story. Back then there were rumblings about his terrorists ties and his desertion from his countrys military.

And the stupidity of someone with his name/looks/background going back across the pond just after 9/11 is monumental. He shouldn't have been paid for it.

I'd have bought him lunch in a very public place and told him to smarten up.

Heh. but then he has our millions, maybe we need to smarten up.

BTW, there are four more poor mistreated wannabe millionaires in negotions with the gubment, we are going to get hosed again

Edited January 20, 2009 by 85RZ500

[jdobbin]

The fundamental problem here is that no one is paying their own money to Arar. They are giving taxpayer (our) money to him.

So, who does an individual or group have to sue for compensation if they believe they have been wronged by the state?

[jdobbin]

He isn't 15, he's a adult now.

Khadr was 15 when arrested and questioned without the presence of a lawyer.

It is hard to trust fully a judicial process where those making charges admit to destroying notes and who may have mistreated the accused.

[Progressive Tory]

So Khadr's words lack credibility?

Who handed Arar his script?

Any coerced 'confession', obtained under the threat or implementaion of torture is not credible. We pride ourselves on our democracy and 'freedom' for all citizens. Mr. Khadr, like all Canadians, should expect a fair trial. It the hearings are performed outside of the country, it is again up to our government to make sure that he is treated fairly. Guantanamo is a disgrace to the American people, and Obama is wise to close it down and allow the US justice system to prosecute the offenders.

In my previous thread, about Mr. Big, we know all about scripted confessions, that don't always match the crime scenes or physical evidence.

It is in everyone's best interest to ensure that trials leave little margin for error. Only confessions obtained through normal interrogation practices can be deemed credible. I can identify a lot of people in photographs, doesn't mean I ever met them.

[madmax]

Khadr was 15 when arrested and questioned without the presence of a lawyer.

It is hard to trust fully a judicial process where those making charges admit to destroying notes and who may have mistreated the accused.

Considering the US has been tight lipped on this information, knowing full well they were sitting on this accusation of 6 years is more reflective on the weakness of the statement. The US wasn't willing to provide this information to Stockwell Day when he requested such information.

Garbage in, Garbage out.

[85RZ500]

Mr.? This guy lobbed a grenade at a medic and killed him. He was fighting our allies and should treated accordingly.

His family has confirmed ties with the terrorists and he was there, fully involved in their activities.

Interogation takes many forms, there are fully grown men who would wet themselves if detained and questioned as a suspect. Are they being tortured?

The U.S. can do what they want with him , I join the masses in not wanting him back in our country.

[Mr.Canada]

Any coerced 'confession', obtained under the threat or implementaion of torture is not credible. We pride ourselves on our democracy and 'freedom' for all citizens. Mr. Khadr, like all Canadians, should expect a fair trial. It the hearings are performed outside of the country, it is again up to our government to make sure that he is treated fairly. Guantanamo is a disgrace to the American people, and Obama is wise to close it down and allow the US justice system to prosecute the offenders.

In my previous thread, about Mr. Big, we know all about scripted confessions, that don't always match the crime scenes or physical evidence.

It is in everyone's best interest to ensure that trials leave little margin for error. Only confessions obtained through normal interrogation practices can be deemed credible. I can identify a lot of people in photographs, doesn't mean I ever met them.

There is no evidence that he was coerced yesterday, when he was not 15, to point out Arar from black and white photos.

Why is the left so afraid of admitting that Arar may not be so squeaky clean?

[August1991]

So, who does an individual or group have to sue for compensation if they believe they have been wronged by the state?

That's a good question Dobbin and I don't have an easy answer. I just know that it's generally not a good idea to let Person A pay for Person B's meal with Person C's credit card. For one, it's an open invitation for people to find themselves in the position of Person C.

I don't think there is a darned word coming from Guantanamo that can be trusted. Not one word.

If life were so simple, Molly.

Obama has now admitted that he will not close Guantanamo anytime soon for the simple reason that there are people there who openly want to hurt Americans. What should America do with these people? Send them where?

Molly, you are welcome to return to the world of 10 September 2001 and pretend that this has all been a bad dream. Yet reality intrudes. Who were those people that landed in Bombay recently and beheaded Jews in a synagogue?

----

I don't know all the details of the Arar case but I was willing to go along with the Harper's government decision to pardon him. At the same time, I know from my own experiences in life and living in the Middle East that we in the liberal western world face fundamental challenges.

Obama in the preface to one of his books implied that poverty and frustration motivate these attacks. Well, Mohammed Atta came from a wealthy Saudi family of privilege. If he had been arrested on 3 September 2001, he and many others would have claimed his innocence too.

[punked]

Obama has now admitted that he will not close Guantanamo anytime soon for the simple reason that there are people there who openly want to hurt Americans. What should America do with these people? Send them where?

CBS was reporting like 4 days ago he is going to close it in his first week. I agree a week is not soon enough but it does seem pretty soon.

[Progressive Tory]

CBS was reporting like 4 days ago he is going to close it in his first week. I agree a week is not soon enough but it does seem pretty soon.

I heard just yesterday that he still plans on immediately initiating it's closure, only admitting that it's not as simple as just locking it up. Prudent.

[Progressive Tory]

There is no evidence that he was coerced yesterday, when he was not 15, to point out Arar from black and white photos.

Why is the left so afraid of admitting that Arar may not be so squeaky clean?

Why does everything have to a 'Left' or 'Right' thing with you? Your implication is that anyone who votes Conservative does not believe in basic human rights. I know many in that Party who would dispute that. My friend is an avid Harper supporter, runs our local food bank and firmly believes in Arar and opposes Guantanamo. Nothing left or right here.

[capricorn]

Did Arar pull the wool over our eyes or what? Will we ever know the truth?

The credibility of Arar's allegations of physical torture is important because it was under these conditions that he made the confession that he travelled to Afghanistan and Pakistan in 1993. (After this confession was relayed back to Canada, it was leaked to the press and the leak itself is now the subject of investigation.)

Arar and his wife, Monia Mazigh, an economics professor and one-time candidate for the NDP, have said on several occasions that he has never been to Afghanistan and never had any desire to go there. Like the torture claims, this statement has gone unchallenged. At one point, while Arar was incarcerated and after the confession, Canada's Foreign Affairs department contacted the Arar family in order to obtain any documentation establishing Maher's whereabouts that year. They produced none. And it's not like the RCMP or CSIS were incapable of finding information; early in the RCMP investigation they turned up a gun permit Arar obtained in 1992. In fact, there was never any evidence presented at the Arar commission as to his whereabouts in that year. Instead, there were lengthy discussions downplaying any significance attached to being in Afghanistan at that time. In his final report, O'Connor skirts the whole issue and instead presents a chapter titled "Background Information on the Afghanistan Camps," in which the reader is treated to a little history primer, the conclusion of which can be summarized as: just because someone might have been at a terrorist camp in Afghanistan in 1993, doesn't necessarily mean they were a terrorist.

The Mackenzie Institute's Thompson sees this as a critical point. If Arar's whereabouts in 1993 would have been established, suspicion of him would have "cleared up like a snowbank in July," Thompson says. "So here's the critical proof, because if he had gone to Afghanistan, you're presuming he's training and linked up with the jihad movement," Thompson says. Instead, the issue just hangs out there unresolved and Thompson says that doesn't serve anyone's interests--not the Canadian public nor Maher Arar's.

http://www.westernstandard.ca/website/arti...333&start=3

Arar's whole case revolved over his claims that his false confessions were the result of torture. So, to believe he was tortured meant he never traveled to terrorist camps?

The next thing we'll hear from terrorist apologists is that Khadr was tortured into falsely identifying Arar from photographs.

[Smallc]

Innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. We must respect our own rules and laws. There is obviously reasonable doubt or he would never have gotten the payment.

Edited January 20, 2009 by Smallc

[Molly]

Or.... that the report that he made the identification is a fiction cut from whole cloth.

The fact is, we have absolutely no reason to believe anything that comes from Guantanamo, and plenty of reason to suspect it's self-serving fiction, from folks who are demonstrably far out in the territory of 'wrong'.

We, as a nation, are perfectly capable of questioning our own citizens, without input from some other nations torturers.

[85RZ500]

Ah, Molly, but you seem committed to believing the Arar story when there are holes in it big enough to drive a Kenworth.

Maybe you should try to jump in and help the four imitators trying to follow the ten million dollar man's lead.

[Progressive Tory]

Ah, Molly, but you seem committed to believing the Arar story when there are holes in it big enough to drive a Kenworth.

Maybe you should try to jump in and help the four imitators trying to follow the ten million dollar man's lead.

There are holes in both stories. I think what Molly is saying, or at least what I believe is that when there is reasonable doubt, we need to find definitive proof or at least raise less doubt, while still respecting a person basic human rights. Not only the right to a fair trial, but the right not to be beaten into submission.

A torture chamber does not make a good wittness.

[madmax]

The U.S. can do what they want with him , I join the masses in not wanting him back in our country.

If the U.S. can do what they want with him, and they want to send him back to Canada... I guess you will have to chose between the U.S. position and your personal opinion.